The clock is ticking for USA....

[Chinaownseverything]

And I still think you are wrong to see things in black and white. Mao was not as starkly bad as you say and Deng was not the saint you think.

Taiwan can no more declare independence without war than the Confederate States of America could during the American Civil War.

The iron boot on Tibet's neck should stay where it is and it is the leniency of the CCP and Hu Yaobang in the 1980's that has allowed this BS surrounding the free Tibet movement to flourish.

Chairman Mao may have made one mistake with the great leap forward, but everybody agrees that he is the hero that saved China.

Before the great leap forward China had 0 factories, after the great leap forward China had 168 factories. These factories played the critical role in fighting off American imperialism as they provided the arms that China used in the Korean war. If North Korea fell, there is no doubt in my mind that the anti communist alliance would have attempted to push into Beijing.

Even at the start of the war the chinese did not have enough arms, a good portion of the people's volunteer army was still using captured Japanese arms instead of mass produced ak-47's. But Mao managed to crush the anti communist forces using superior tactics that he himself developed. The soviets refused to help the North Koreans anything beyond air support over the Yalu river and sending arms.

All everybody remembers about Mao is the great leap forward, but he did many great things after his one mistake, under Mao everybody was well fed for the first time in many years of chinese history and the chinese population jumped from 400,000 to 1.2 billion. At the end of Mao's reign China had thousands of factories, this influenced the outsourcing decisions of the USA, the main reason why the USA outsourced to China was because they already had a manufacturing base and skilled workers. Without Mao, there would be no modern day China.

I also respect Mao for sending his own son to fight in the Korean war (he died). Can you imagine any world leader in history doing this to their children?

 

[Chinaownseverything]

of course you can, just depends on one's methodology of how one does it. i think cardsharp already explained it to you. however if you are interested, here is the forum of chinadaily which itself is one of the mouthpiece news outlet of china's government. censorship exists in the forum, but still there are many users criticise many things there. you can see to how much freedom of speech people can have. don't open it with firefox though, it doesn't work properly.

bbs.chinadaily.com.cn

The forum administrators and moderators control this forum not the chinese government. In China you can access forums like Pakistan defence and post whatever you want.

 

[whocares]

well, its natural to respect the political founders of a nation.

For all his pluses, Gandhi was a luddite who saw poverty as a virtue. Such a point of view would be considered shockingly stupid today.

Same with Mao. He might've been instrumental to the modern Chinese national identity, but his other views didn't pan out right.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

I agree, but it was a mistake we had to make ourselves even the CCP leadership don't have a crystal ball telling them one way was better than the other.

No it wouldn't have done ANY good to just jump into capitalism, look at countries that did this like Russia, Africa, middle east etc.... Before Joseph Stalin Russia was capitalist yet they never modernized, however after Stalin took over Stalin did something the west deemed impossible taking a backwards nation and turning it into an industrial powerhouse.

It takes a LOT of peoples combined labor to create something like a factory. Under communism the people put up the factories for free and everybody reaps the benefits. Under capitalism you have to pay people to do labor, except the government doesn't have money because they are third world country. What does this lead to? a capitalist/democratic government would put 1 factory up a year while a communist one puts up 50 factories.

 

[Developereo]

Regarding democracy v/s authoritarianism, democracy is just a fancy name for mob rule or, more precisely, media rule. In an authoritarian state you have state-controlled media, in a democarcy you have a media-controlled state.

The media in most democratic countries is owned by a handful of elites who decide the course and nature of political debate and state policy. Politicians are basically puppets who dance to the tune of media polls and media-controlled public opinion. Controlling public opinion is not an art any more, it is a well understood science.

The classic example of media control is the taboo in Western media to criticize Israel. Any Western policitican who forgets it will only do so at his/her peril and career suicide. Another example is the debate currently raging in Australia about asylum seekers arriving by boat. Both parties are climbing over each other to be tough on the 'boat people', despite the fact that boat arrivals are a miniscule percent of total refugee applicants (most arrive by plane) and Australia's total immigrant intake. We are talking 100 or so boat people compared to half a million total immigrants/year.

The (politically incorrect) reality is that most ordinary people have neither the time nor the desire to research issues in depth. They vote mostly along party lines and based on media soundbites, so democracy is not all that it is hyped up to be. As long as people have a job and the house price goes up, most people couldn't care less what type of government they have.

It also invalidates the claim that authoritarian regimes are more warlike. The US invasion of Iraq was drummed up by the media. Just as they are beating the drums for attacks on Iran and Pakistan.

Secondly, coming to the Indians expressing admiration for China, it reminds me of the famous saying "diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a stone." Make no mistake about it -- India hates China -- which is why it is arming itself to the teeth with Western and Russian weapons. Another clue to India's real nature can be found by observing its interactions with its neighbors. As they say in dating, if you want to find out your date's real personality, pay attention to how they treat the waiter. All of India's neighbors are either openly anti-India and/or are equally friendly with China. India has a far better reputation away from home (through carefully crafted media) than it does with its immediate neighbors who have known it longest and best.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

These political parties get their funding from corporations, the party members that are allowed to run need to get the approval of major corporations. The people chosen by the party will always be a corporate shill not the person who wants to make the community better.

Heh heh you are so wrong. Many countries enact limits on corporate donations and some even ban them outright, allowing only donations from individuals. They replace corporate funding by government funds, allowed if the party reaches a certain percentage of the popular vote. As for the stuff on Canadian troops you must have had to dig pretty hard on that, but it in no way invalidates democracy and is in fact off topic. The quick rebuttal is democracy is not rule by opinion poll or even public opinion. This is in fact an advantage of term limits; rather than be worried about opinion polls a leader can govern according to his morals and principles.

Corporate shills are actually rare. They are one among many special interest groups including unions, religious groups, community groups and various groups like gays, racial groups etc. Politicans do not pander to corporations, but to these. No matter what a corporation promises or how much money they offer, other special interest groups are far more powerful.

As for you bringing up the Chinese examination system, it has existed for thousands of years and gone through several overhauls. But the quick response is the best scientific or mathematical minds do not necessarily make the best leaders. Would you rather Einstein work on technology, or be President? Meanwhile much of a job of the leader of a nation is diplomacy, which requires charisma and soft skills.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

well, its natural to respect the political founders of a nation.

For all his pluses, Gandhi was a luddite who saw poverty as a virtue. Such a point of view would be considered shockingly stupid today.

Same with Mao. He might've been instrumental to the modern Chinese national identity, but his other views didn't pan out right.

What do you mean his other views didn't pan out right? Mao's views helped chinese society greatly.

Mao promoted reverse engineering of western technology, Mao destroyed religion and superstition, resisting imperialism, National unity, destroyed the caste system in China, working for the greater good, embracing Confucianism and meritocracy

sure some people died along the way, but people die all the time.

 

[CardSharp]

Chairman Mao may have made one mistake with the great leap forward, but everybody agrees that he is the hero that saved China.

Ahhh just because I respect Mao doesn't mean I like him. I for one won't excuse his idiotic planning for the great leap forward and his subsquent refusal and stubbornness to see the suffering that resulted.

Before the great leap forward China had 0 factories, after the great leap forward China had 168 factories. These factories played the critical role in fighting off American imperialism as they provided the arms that China used in the Korean war. If North Korea fell, there is no doubt in my mind that the anti communist alliance would have attempted to push into Beijing.

Well did you know that Kim Il Sung attacked only when he knew he had a gareentee from Mao that China would intervene in the worse case scenerio? The blame can’t all be laid at the Koreans doors (as much as I’d like to)


And who the hell said China had 0 factories? Quite a few were captured from the GMD and Japanese intact or refurbishable.

All everybody remembers about Mao is the great leap forward, but he did many great things after his one mistake, under Mao everybody was well fed for the first time in many years of chinese history and the chinese population jumped from 400,000 to 1.2 billion. At the end of Mao's reign China had thousands of factories, this influenced the outsourcing decisions of the USA, the main reason why the USA outsourced to China was because they already had a manufacturing base and skilled workers. Without Mao, there would be no modern day China.

Mao didn’t have much to do with the rise in conditions, those can be better attributed to sensible economic reforms of Liu Xiaoqi, Deng Xiaoping and company. It was these reforms that Mao hated so much for their capitalist/revisionist tendencies, WHICH is why he launched the cultural revolution to combat them. The cultural revolution arguebly was more damaging than the great leap forward.

I also respect Mao for sending his own son to fight in the Korean war (he died). Can you imagine any world leader in history doing this to their children?

How about Franklin D. Roosevelt’s son? Roosevelt Jr. was on Utah Beach as the only General officer in the first wave of troops. Pretty ballsy if you ask me.

Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man Chinaownseverything, I can’t believe someone like you actually exsists. I thought it was some bad caracture that westerners dreamed up. Forty years ago, I can easily imagine you as one of the naïve young people kicking the crap out of my grandpa during the cultural revolution.

 

[chauism]

The forum administrators and moderators control this forum not the chinese government. In China you can access forums like Pakistan defence and post whatever you want.

the administrators and the moderators implement censorship within the government's guideline accordingly.

 

[CardSharp]

well, its natural to respect the political founders of a nation.

For all his pluses, Gandhi was a luddite who saw poverty as a virtue. Such a point of view would be considered shockingly stupid today.

Same with Mao. He might've been instrumental to the modern Chinese national identity, but his other views didn't pan out right.

I agree again. Mao was a great war time/revolutionary leader. Peacetime? not so much.

and Gandhi really can be described as a luddite. Much of his beliefs continue to hold India back in terms of economic development. Like his stupid theory of keeping enterprises small so that workers won't be exploited. Yes true they are less likely to be exploited, but their production would also be crap because they won't be able to take advantage of the economy of scale.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Heh heh you are so wrong. Many countries enact limits on corporate donations and some even ban them outright, allowing only donations from individuals. They replace corporate funding by government funds, allowed if the party reaches a certain percentage of the popular vote. As for the stuff on Canadian troops you must have had to dig pretty hard on that, but it in no way invalidates democracy and is in fact off topic. The quick rebuttal is democracy is not rule by opinion poll or even public opinion. This is in fact an advantage of term limits; rather than be worried about opinion polls a leader can govern according to his morals and principles.

Corporate shills are actually rare. They are one among many special interest groups including unions, religious groups, community groups and various groups like gays, racial groups etc. Politicans do not pander to corporations, but to these. No matter what a corporation promises or how much money they offer, other special interest groups are far more powerful.

As for you bringing up the Chinese examination system, it has existed for thousands of years and gone through several overhauls. But the quick response is the best scientific or mathematical minds do not necessarily make the best leaders. Would you rather Einstein work on technology, or be President? Meanwhile much of a job of the leader of a nation is diplomacy, which requires charisma and soft skills.

Care to explain this? Why is the Canadian government fighting a war that 71% did not support and 27% expressing disapproval? Thats 98% of the population of Canada that DOES NOT WANT this war. Shouldn't a democracy follow the voice of the people?

Who benefits from the war in Iraq? Corporate Shills? You need to open your eyes.

Canada and the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though the leader of the Canadian Alliance Party, Stephen Harper, objected to the Prime Minister's position on Iraq, stating that Canada should be fighting alongside the US,[1][3] Chrétien's decision reflected the view of the general Canadian public: In March 2003 a poll conducted by EKOS Research Associates for the Toronto Star and the Montreal newspaper La Presse found 71% of those questioned did not support the United States-led invasion, with 27% expressing disapproval.[3] As well, the Prime Minister's advice to the viceroy was based on feasibility problems for Canada: on 31 March 2003, Maclean's magazine reported that "Canada has committed about 2,000 troops to Afghanistan this summer, a significant contribution given the stretched state of the Canadian military."[2]



Also about the Einstein question, what Einstein wants to do is HIS OWN CHOICE. The scientists that make the CRAZY AMAZING breakthroughs have little or no interest in politics, so it would not be a waste of talent because nobody is forcing Einstein to be the president of China.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

"Man Chinaownseverything, I can’t believe someone like you actually exsists. I thought it was some bad caracture that westerners dreamed up. Forty years ago, I can easily imagine you as one of the naïve young people kicking the crap out of my grandpa during the cultural revolution."

Lol

 

[CardSharp]

No it wouldn't have done ANY good to just jump into capitalism, look at countries that did this like Russia, Africa, middle east etc.... Before Joseph Stalin Russia was capitalist yet they never modernized, however after Stalin took over Stalin did something the west deemed impossible taking a backwards nation and turning it into an industrial powerhouse.

It takes a LOT of peoples combined labor to create something like a factory. Under communism the people put up the factories for free and everybody reaps the benefits. Under capitalism you have to pay people to do labor, except the government doesn't have money because they are third world country. What does this lead to? a capitalist/democratic government would put 1 factory up a year while a communist one puts up 50 factories.

Oh BS, what was wrong with Liu Xiaoqi and Deng Xiaoping's early attempts at economic reform? They cannot be compared in any way with what happened to russia. They were the same gradualist reforms that got put in place later and which resulted in China's prosperity today. These reforms just got senselessly delayed 25 years because Mao wouldn't die soon enough.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Ahhh just because I respect Mao doesn't mean I like him.

That is how I feel as well.

Anyway, the most important thing is that our current leadership is good, and China is doing well.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Well did you know that Kim Il Sung attacked only when he knew he had a gareentee from Mao that China would intervene in the worse case scenerio? The blame can’t all be laid at the Koreans doors (as much as I’d like to)

This is just conspiracy theory bullshit, theres no evidence of this

And who the hell said China had 0 factories? Quite a few were captured from the GMD and Japanese intact or refurbishable

.

The only factories China had were in Manchuria, and the Soviets shipped them back to Russia after WW2. China really did have NO FACTORIES.

Manchuria - New World Encyclopedia

When the Soviets entered World War II against the Japanese in August 1945, they stripped most of Manchuria's factories and reassembled them in Russia.

Mao didn’t have much to do with the rise in conditions, those can be better attributed to sensible economic reforms of Liu Xiaoqi, Deng Xiaoping and company. It was these reforms that Mao hated so much for their capitalist/revisionist tendencies, WHICH is why he launched the cultural revolution to combat them. The cultural revolution arguebly was more damaging than the great leap forward.

Are you kidding me? The first thing that Mao did was ensure that every chinese had food, water, clothing and shelter something that most chinese did not have before the communists took over

Man Chinaownseverything, I can’t believe someone like you actually exsists. I thought it was some bad caracture that westerners dreamed up. Forty years ago, I can easily imagine you as one of the naïve young people kicking the crap out of my grandpa during the cultural revolution.

The cultural revolution was necessary to root out the spies sent by the USA and all of her lackies to destabilize China