The Burning South - Live Simulation Thread

[HydraChess]

The matter of colours can be handled very easily; saffron on one side, green on the other and white dividing the two. That sounds fair to me!

Which side will be front and which will be back?

Jokes aside, welcome to the backstage @Princeps Senatus ! If you agree to join, that is

 

[Joe Shearer]

Which side will be front and which will be back?

Jokes aside, welcome to the backstage @Princeps Senatus ! If you agree to join, that is

I am looking forward to his inputs.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Perhaps lets use him as a consultant for all of you especially since my workload is a little high.
@Princeps Senatus your underwear may be colored one sided but if you can so solemnly swear to the best of your ethical abilities to remain neutral than you can be added to both groups to jump in as secondary resource for making changes to the save file.

That sounds good to me!

Don't worry, I will keep it balanced, in fact, if you had made me choose a side, I may have picked the Indian side, because the prospect of Offensive Air Ops excites me the most.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Which side will be front and which will be back?

Jokes aside, welcome to the backstage @Princeps Senatus ! If you agree to join, that is

I am looking forward to his inputs.

That sounds good to me!

Don't worry, I will keep it balanced, in fact, if you had made me choose a side, I may have picked the Indian side, because the prospect of Offensive Air Ops excites me the most.

We can always use another Idris Latif.

 

[dbc]

Saab and ZDK being shot down by S400, that's not that surprising as they were/are/will be prime targets but certainly alarming

In the real world.
- S400 taking out an air borne radar from I assume a 100 plus NM is fantasy.
- ditto for S400 v F-16 or other fast air assets. Given distant, time, sensors, counter measures and decoys - an S400 launched from India, hitting an F-16 deep in Pakistan operated by a trained crew is highly unlikely.
- besides the IAF isn't going to use the S400 while its own air assets are over Pakistan.
- I'd expect significant IAF attrition from friendly fire. The IAF are incapable of large force air battle coordination, it would be comical if it didn't end in tragedy for them.

 

[SQ8]

In the real world.
- S400 taking out an air borne radar from I assume a 100 plus NM is fantasy.
- ditto for S400 v F-16 or other fast air assets. Given distant, time, sensors, counter measures and decoys - an S400 launched from India, hitting an F-16 deep in Pakistan operated by a trained crew is highly unlikely.
- besides the IAF isn't going to use the S400 while its own air assets are over Pakistan.
- I'd expect significant IAF attrition from friendly fire. The IAF are incapable of large force air battle coordination, it would be comical if it didn't end in tragedy for them.

-Good points but keep in mind the S-400 was advertised as a HVAA killer.

-There shouldn’t be a reason why it should but the assumption is that it was only one S-400 missile launched and not 3-4 as the sim did in autopilot. The same sim controlling the S-400 is controlling the F-16 based on basic but established avoidance maneuvers.

-That is a likely possibility and they weren’t used until the IAF strike forces were already egressing.

-Based on what? And if that were true that isn’t the point of this sim. Its basic humans setting the stage and letting algorithms crunch it out.

Btw
@Joe Shearer @Palghat @surya kiran @meghdut @Desert Fox 1 @JX-1 @Signalian @PanzerKiel and others
If there was doubt on the simulator’s validity (my execution errors or planning notwithstanding)

The 8th Command-PE User Conference

From the above:
“
attendees both formally and informally shared how they are using Command to meet their objectives across a wide range of areas, including: concept development, wargaming, education, and logistics analysis.

• German Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Silier showed how the Luftwaffe uses Command to augment the Air Force Academy’s Air Power lessons for new officers. Their methodology has won awards in Germany and has inspired many of the Academy’s students to fight their own battles using Command in the school’s wargaming club.
• Ryan Reeder from the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab showed how they use Command as part of its concept development efforts. The Lab has been driving some key new features that have been developed for command including the Amphibious Landing Planner and Passive Coherent Location Systems.
• Ryan McKendrick from Northrup Grumman shared how Command has served as the training environment for it’s Artificial Intelligence in DARPA’s Gamebreaker Challenge. He talked about the innovative techniques being used and the impressive results after looking at 200 quadrillion variants (that’s a 2 with 15 zeros after it).
• LtCol Doug Downey shared how Marine Corps University’s Command and Staff College uses Command to support the school’s education of majors and lieutenant colonels in learning the Marine Corps Decision Making Process. Under the supervision of military faculty and retired senior USMC leaders, students prepare plans and orders for simulation and adjudication in Command by expert operators. In coordination with MCU staff, the expert operators execute these orders and provide outcomes and situation updates to the students the next day so they can plan for the next wargame turn.

In addition to Command users, the event’s location near Marine Corps Base Quantico and in the Washington, D.C.area provided an opportunity for several distinguished visitors to attend. MajGen Julian D. Alford, Commanding General forUSMC Training Command was given a demonstration of Command and provided the attendees with some remarks on the value of the right tool for training. Also visiting the event was Colonel Scott Gilman, Deputy Director of the U.S. ArmyModeling and Simulation Office. His team attended to learn more about Command and to discuss setting up a US franchise of the wargaming-for-education focused “Fight Club” in the United Kingdom. Fight Club is a bottom-up initiative that uses commercial off the shelf wargames, including two of Matrix Games’ products, Combat Mission and Flashpoint Campaigns, to improve military thinking.

 

[dbc]

Good points but keep in mind the S-400 was advertised as a HVAA killer.

Air borne radar on the other hand will detect the hostile SAM with plenty of time for counter measures and evasion. In Vietnam, the predecessor of the E3 Sentry, the EC 121 Warning Star flew a race track pattern 70 miles off MIG bases like the one at Phuc Yen, non were ever shot down by SAM or Vietnamese MiGs, we did lose an unescorted EC-121 to a North Korean MiG over international airspace near the sea of Japan.

-There shouldn’t be a reason why it should but the assumption is that it was only one S-400 missile launched and not 3-4 as the sim did in autopilot. The same sim controlling the S-400 is controlling the F-16 based on basic but established avoidance maneuvers.

F-16's still fly wild weasel missions, to the best of my knowledge we haven't lost an F-16 wild weasel to a SAM. Jammers and towed decoys are very effective against Russian SAMS.

Based on what? And if that were true that isn’t the point of this sim. Its basic humans setting the stage and letting algorithms crunch it out.

Based on past performance, to account for the attrition figures you posted I assumed the IAF strike force size was of at least a 100 plus aircraft. I'm saying the IAF has never demonstrated they can successfully coordinate a 100 air assets in battle over hostile airspace.

 

[SQ8]

Air borne radar on the other hand will detect the hostile SAM with plenty of time for counter measures and evasion. In Vietnam, the predecessor of the E3 Sentry, the EC 121 Warning Star flew a race track pattern 70 miles off MIG bases like the one at Phuc Yen, non were ever shot down by SAM or Vietnamese MiGs, we did lose an unescorted EC-121 to a North Korean MiG over international airspace near the sea of Japan.




F-16's still fly wild weasel missions, to the best of my knowledge we haven't lost an F-16 wild weasel to a SAM. Jammers and towed decoys are very effective against Russian SAMS.



Based on past performance, to account for the attrition figures you posted I assumed the IAF strike force size was of at least a 100 plus aircraft. I'm saying the IAF has never demonstrated they can successfully coordinate a 100 air assets in battle over hostile airspace.

It isn’t airborne Radar but ELINT and ESM sensors on the warning star. Those were against the SA-2 which is generations behind the S-400 and 1/4th in realistic range.
Realistically , the Erieye could have survived based on the location of the S-400 if it went 50km further west but once the S-400 opened up the speed wasn’t there to evade.
Also, technically the Russians should have rolled across Ukraine but that didn’t happen either.

Yes they do - but with the threats they have flown in the past (Iraqi AD) were well executed ones in jamming configuration and not on combat air patrol - otherwise the F-16 loss over serbia wouldn’t have occurred.

Not to mention these
19/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW, shot down by SAM over Bagdahd
19/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW (Tice), shot down by SA-3, made it to southern Iraq before ejecting
21/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW, destroyed by own bomb over Kuwait, fuse failure, pilot rescused by USS Nicholas SH-60B
?/1/1991 F-16C 363 TFW, engine failure after being hit by ground fire
27/2/1991 F-16C, 50TFW, Capt Andrews, hit by SA-16 near Euphrates river.

technically we haven’t demonstrated publicly that we can defeat a peer enemy like Russia or China in an actual hostile environment but we practice from red flags to simulated exercises that we can.

 

[MisterSyed]

@Desert Fox 1
@JX-1
@mister Syed

This childish behaviour is really not appreciated.

Particularly vulgar abuse about a dead soldier. Whatever you think of Indian soldiers, this language does not belong to a public forum. You crossed a red line.

@Desert Fox 1

If I had been you, I would have begged and prayed for that post to be deleted. I would not like to have it left on record.

Fortunately, I am not you.

Twada kuta tommy te saada kuta kuta?

 

[dbc]

It isn’t airborne Radar but ELINT and ESM sensors on the warning star.

nope Warning Star was an airborne early warning system.

EC-121 Warning Star

www.history.navy.mil

19/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW, shot down by SAM over Bagdahd
19/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW (Tice), shot down by SA-3, made it to southern Iraq before ejecting
21/1/1991 F-16C 401 TFW, destroyed by own bomb over Kuwait, fuse failure, pilot rescused by USS Nicholas SH-60B
?/1/1991 F-16C 363 TFW, engine failure after being hit by ground fire
27/2/1991 F-16C, 50TFW, Capt Andrews, hit by SA-16 near Euphrates river.

None of these F-16's you listed were equipped like the wild weasels of 1991 OR operational PAF F-16's that is able to defend itself against long range SAMs.

 

[SQ8]

nope Warning Star was an airborne early warning system.

EC-121 Warning Star

www.history.navy.mil

None of these F-16's you listed were equipped like the wild weasels of 1991 OR operational PAF F-16's that is able to defend itself against long range SAMs.

You misunderstood - warning star was AEW originally - but it wasn’t their radar that picked up sa-2s. It was either onboard ELINT equipment or dedicated variants such as the M or T variations that worked in that role.

 

[dbc]

technically we haven’t demonstrated publicly that we can defeat a peer enemy like Russia or China in an actual hostile environment but we practice from red flags to simulated exercises that we can.

I wasn't talking about defeating a peer adversary, I was talking about real battle experience coordinating thousands of assets in battle, the US is the king of the hill in this domain.

 

[SQ8]

I wasn't talking about defeating a peer adversary, I was talking about real battle experience coordinating thousands of assets in battle, the US is the king of the hill in this domain.

Yes we are - but that is after years of training and actual combat experience. Pilots going into GW-1 were nervous seeing the massive Iraqi AAA barrages and Sams going left and right thinking it was a bloodbath but they came out ok because technology, tactics and training worked. Before that the Iraqis were considered a feared AD system but the collapse of it was visible due to new ideas. Vietnam with all its massive coordination of units was a bloodbath for the USAF.

Same way, without actually knowing the training levels of Indians in practice and seeing the proof of the pudding in combat I cannot agree with your statement.

They(Indians) claim that they did such a large force exercise to simulate a two front war with hundreds of aircraft moved from the eastern to northern fronts.

Yet, other than a very small scale operation whose narrative is highly contested and that did result in accepted fratricidal action there isn’t proof so should Pakistanis or the Chinese simply assume that India is a paper tiger and cakewalk?
Should the return of the TTP and recent spate of attacks in Pakistan suddenly qualify that the Pakistan military will be easy pickings for India?

 

[dbc]

You misunderstood - warning star was AEW originally - but it wasn’t their radar that picked up sa-2s. It was either onboard ELINT equipment or dedicated variants such as the M or T variations that worked in that role.

Missile plume is pretty easily detected by airborne radar....because..

exothermic combustion process produces a rapid temperature augment that causes a split of the residual alkaline metals in positive and negative ions. Negative ions combine with the hydrogen and produce neutral molecules and electrons.

The concentration of electrons at the nozzle provokes an increase in the RCS.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA447064.pdf

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Does this mean IAF will not be able to undertake any major offensives of this scale again for the remaining duration? And What percentage of overall arsenel of HQ 9A were expended?