The Burning South - Live Simulation Thread

[SQ8]

Missile plume is pretty easily detected by airborne radar....because..

exothermic combustion process produces a rapid temperature augment that causes a split of the residual alkaline metals in positive and negative ions. Negative ions combine with the hydrogen and produce neutral molecules and electrons.

The concentration of electrons at the nozzle provokes an increase in the RCS.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA447064.pdf

We’re still talking apples and oranges - an emitting radar will be showing up as a target(technically it could) on another radar such as the search and Hf radar on the warning star. A radar does not detect another radar (generally)

A missile is a solid object on which radar waves are bouncing back to the receiver and that makes sense.

I am referring to specifically using the electronic emissions of SAM sites to find and trace them.

 

[Joe Shearer]

-Good points but keep in mind the S-400 was advertised as a HVAA killer.

-There shouldn’t be a reason why it should but the assumption is that it was only one S-400 missile launched and not 3-4 as the sim did in autopilot. The same sim controlling the S-400 is controlling the F-16 based on basic but established avoidance maneuvers.

-That is a likely possibility and they weren’t used until the IAF strike forces were already egressing.

-Based on what? And if that were true that isn’t the point of this sim. Its basic humans setting the stage and letting algorithms crunch it out.

Btw
@Joe Shearer @Palghat @surya kiran @meghdut @Desert Fox 1 @JX-1 @Signalian @PanzerKiel and others
If there was doubt on the simulator’s validity (my execution errors or planning notwithstanding)

The 8th Command-PE User Conference

From the above:
“
attendees both formally and informally shared how they are using Command to meet their objectives across a wide range of areas, including: concept development, wargaming, education, and logistics analysis.

• German Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Silier showed how the Luftwaffe uses Command to augment the Air Force Academy’s Air Power lessons for new officers. Their methodology has won awards in Germany and has inspired many of the Academy’s students to fight their own battles using Command in the school’s wargaming club.
• Ryan Reeder from the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab showed how they use Command as part of its concept development efforts. The Lab has been driving some key new features that have been developed for command including the Amphibious Landing Planner and Passive Coherent Location Systems.
• Ryan McKendrick from Northrup Grumman shared how Command has served as the training environment for it’s Artificial Intelligence in DARPA’s Gamebreaker Challenge. He talked about the innovative techniques being used and the impressive results after looking at 200 quadrillion variants (that’s a 2 with 15 zeros after it).
• LtCol Doug Downey shared how Marine Corps University’s Command and Staff College uses Command to support the school’s education of majors and lieutenant colonels in learning the Marine Corps Decision Making Process. Under the supervision of military faculty and retired senior USMC leaders, students prepare plans and orders for simulation and adjudication in Command by expert operators. In coordination with MCU staff, the expert operators execute these orders and provide outcomes and situation updates to the students the next day so they can plan for the next wargame turn.

In addition to Command users, the event’s location near Marine Corps Base Quantico and in the Washington, D.C.area provided an opportunity for several distinguished visitors to attend. MajGen Julian D. Alford, Commanding General forUSMC Training Command was given a demonstration of Command and provided the attendees with some remarks on the value of the right tool for training. Also visiting the event was Colonel Scott Gilman, Deputy Director of the U.S. ArmyModeling and Simulation Office. His team attended to learn more about Command and to discuss setting up a US franchise of the wargaming-for-education focused “Fight Club” in the United Kingdom. Fight Club is a bottom-up initiative that uses commercial off the shelf wargames, including two of Matrix Games’ products, Combat Mission and Flashpoint Campaigns, to improve military thinking.

We neither had any doubts, nor any occasion to express these non-existent doubts.

To the extent that these exercises have anything other than entertainment value, even as civilians with no say in the matter in our country's counsels, we have noticed the extraordinary excellence of some opposing defence features, and the gaps in our own. It is also clear that our production capability is slowly taking shape, and that the future will bring in more and more capability of meeting our own demands at need, when we want and where we want, and we will be well-advised to improve these salient features, and to take urgent action about others where we seem to be falling behind.

As for other race-, ethnicity- and nationality-oriented gibes and jeers, we can only smile at a situation where a simulated war-game inspires such furious patriotism within what we thought would be calmer and more rational dispositions.

As analysts are systematic and methodical personalities (normally), it should not be difficult to tabulate the 193 nations of the UN organisation in rank order, and assign a coefficient of incompetence to each, naturally, with the US coming in at 1.0, and, perhaps, India, in the 193rd position, 0.01 or something. This would then be applied to every result that the simulator brings forth.

We can always replay the game on those terms, if the dignitary so wishes.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

In the real world.
- S400 taking out an air borne radar from I assume a 100 plus NM is fantasy.
- ditto for S400 v F-16 or other fast air assets. Given distant, time, sensors, counter measures and decoys - an S400 launched from India, hitting an F-16 deep in Pakistan operated by a trained crew is highly unlikely.
- besides the IAF isn't going to use the S400 while its own air assets are over Pakistan.
- I'd expect significant IAF attrition from friendly fire. The IAF are incapable of large force air battle coordination, it would be comical if it didn't end in tragedy for them.

I am of the same opinion. SAMs seem to overperform in CMO ever so slightly compared to their real life counterparts. This might be due to overoptimistic stats on paper, but also due to how the game models ECM.

It's fine for this simulation, but if others feel the same way maybe we can reduce automatic firing range through doctrine settings.

I'd also be interested in knowing where the S-400 battery has been placed, It should be well within India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am of the same opinion. SAMs seem to overperform in CMO ever so slightly compared to their real life counterparts. This might be due to overoptimistic stats on paper, but also due to how the game models ECM.

It's fine for this simulation, but if others feel the same way maybe we can reduce automatic firing range through doctrine settings.

I'd also be interested in knowing where the S-400 battery has been placed, It should be well within India.

Pathankot, Sirsa, Jodhpur and Jamnagar. Although five were available, it felt unreal not to have politicians screaming at military men insisting that at least one be stationed at Delhi.

 

[Joe Shearer]

India ka to pata nai lekin Pak elite will be busy in money transferring and seeking ways to get out of country because their wealth is already in England and Europe. pehlay bhi gharib marta aya hai aur jang me bhi gharib maare aur mare ga. afsos is baat ka hai keh Pakistan jesa mulk dunya me aur koi nai hai bs qismat achi nai hai shayad.

Janab, aap ko bataana chaahta hoon ki jo kaam Pakistani kar sakta hai, wohi kaam Hindustani dus guna zyada karne mein kaamyaab rahega. Agar ek Pakisani elite insaan dus lakh chori kar ke desh se bahar le jata hai, to yakin kijiye ki hamara veer dakaiton ek karor luthne mein lage rahte hain.
Agar hum aapke saare gaddaron ko le lete hain, aap hamaare gaddaron ko lijiye ga? Dimaag jo baat saath hi saath jaag uthti hai, usi se pata chal jayega kis mulk ka haal kaisi hai.

 

[Sharma Ji]

Janab, aap ko bataana chaahta hoon ki jo kaam Pakistani kar sakta hai, wohi kaam Hindustani dus guna zyada karne mein kaamyaab rahega. Agar ek Pakisani elite insaan dus lakh chori kar ke desh se bahar le jata hai, to yakin kijiye ki hamara veer dakaiton ek karor luthne mein lage rahte hain.
Agar hum aapke saare gaddaron ko le lete hain, aap hamaare gaddaron ko lijiye ga? Dimaag jo baat saath hi saath jaag uthti hai, usi se pata chal jayega kis mulk ka haal kaisi hai.

but would you agree ki filhaal hamara haal, both economic and political stability wise.. itna bura nahi hai.

Is mulk mein, one can not even imagine ki kisi Army gernail ki itni zurrat ho jaye ki vo hamarey PM saab ko topple kar ke apni khud ke policies, both foreign and domestic le aaye ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

but would you agree ki filhaal hamara haal, both economic and political stability wise.. itna bura nahi hai.

Is mulk mein, one can not even imagine ki kisi Army gernail ki itni zurrat ho jaye ki vo hamarey PM saab ko topple kar ke apni khud ke policies, both foreign and domestic le aaye ?

To aap kya chahte thein ki inko wohi baat bataun jo baki duniya bataa rahi hai? Kisika jalta huwa dil thanda karna kya insaniyat ke naate hamara farz nahin banta?

This is also off-topic. Please let us take it elsewhere.

 

[dbc]

I am of the same opinion. SAMs seem to overperform in CMO ever so slightly compared to their real life counterparts. This might be due to overoptimistic stats on paper, but also due to how the game models ECM.

It's fine for this simulation, but if others feel the same way maybe we can reduce automatic firing range through doctrine settings.

I'd also be interested in knowing where the S-400 battery has been placed, It should be well within India.

Don't get me wrong the S400, can be lethal in the hands of a clever operator as proved by Colonel Zoltán Dani but it loses its effectiveness with distance.Also, no one ever has engaged offensive air under SAM cover - Vietnam, Iraq and Kosovo. In Vietnam, MiGs had a ceiling of 5000 ft, to avoid being targeted by their own SAMS. Plus, Pakistan has surface ECM on its own soil that it can bring into the fight against long range SAM. Yes, I agree I think the lethality of SAM should be recalibrated in the simulation.

 

[JX-1]

Don't get me wrong the S400, can be lethal in the hands of a clever operator as proved by Colonel Zoltán Dani but it loses its effectiveness with distance.Also, no one ever has engaged offensive air under SAM cover - Vietnam, Iraq and Kosovo. In Vietnam, MiGs had a ceiling of 5000 ft, to avoid being targeted by their own SAMS. Plus, Pakistan has surface ECM on its own soil that it can bring into the fight against long range SAM. Yes, I agree I think the lethality of SAM should be recalibrated in the simulation.

Ukraine, Feb 2019, Yemen, and other battles have shown SAMs are much more overrated than they are marketed to be.

 

[SQ8]

I am of the same opinion. SAMs seem to overperform in CMO ever so slightly compared to their real life counterparts. This might be due to overoptimistic stats on paper, but also due to how the game models ECM.

It's fine for this simulation, but if others feel the same way maybe we can reduce automatic firing range through doctrine settings.

I'd also be interested in knowing where the S-400 battery has been placed, It should be well within India.

I would rather reduce the number fired - because the sim has a tendency to splurge SAMs like nobody’s business. I could have set this in the side doctrine but then I would be rigging it

 

[Raja Porus]

I would rather reduce the number fired - because the sim has a tendency to splurge SAMs like nobody’s business. I could have set this in the side doctrine but then I would be rigging it

It'd be unfair for the Indians and they'll be at the disadvantage because they've already lost quite some aircraft to our AD.

 

[JX-1]

It'd be unfair for the Indians and they'll be at the disadvantage because they've already lost quite some aircraft to our AD.

Both sides have faced overpowered versions of each other's AD in round 1, so we're even.

 

[Raja Porus]

Both sides have faced overpowered versions of each other's AD in round 1, so we're even.

They ran into the hornet's nest while our's were taken out by a few pot shots

 

[JX-1]

They ran into the hornet's nest while our's were taken out by a few pot shots

They will take more casualties either way. The ratio of casualties on both sides will be the same.

 

[dbc]

It'd be unfair for the Indians and they'll be at the disadvantage because they've already lost quite some aircraft to our AD.

not really Pakistan lost two AWACS - force multipliers.