The Battle of the Hydaspes: A Mystery in the Mists of Time

[KS]

@Joe

Since the caste of Porus came up and you have already proved he was no Rajput...My question is what are the chance that he was a Jat ?

All I could find on the interweb was hot blooded Rajput and Jat youth fighting that Porus was one of them.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe

Since the caste of Porus came up and you have already proved he was no Rajput...My question is what are the chance that he was a Jat ?

All I could find on the interweb was hot blooded Rajput and Jat youth fighting that Porus was one of them.

If you are willing to pay for a life insurance policy for me worth Rs. 5.0 crores or so (negotiable), I am willing to go on record and say what is the most likely position with regard to Porus being a Jat.

Nobody - nobody - least of all, poor old Joe, takes panga with a Jat. Or more than one of them.

Off the record, the Jats were probably part of the Saka-Pahlava lot who came flying in one hard-ridden horse-ride ahead of the fear-crazed Tocharians, themselves flying from the ferocious Hioung Nu (ask our Chinese friends for details; one of them in particular is very good at their own ancient history).

However, this is a potent topic. My home list is Silk List, but I used to be active at PakTeaHouse. There a group of us became very close and set up our own rather whimsical mailing list. One of us is a Jat, a mechanised Sardar now a very prosperous surgeon on the west coast, a loyal Indian who is, like the other Indians on that mailing list a committed friend of Pakistan, a guy who is trying to see if he can set up scholarships for Pakistani kids to come and train in medicine in India. He forwarded us this (REMEMBER, IT WASN'T I WHO WROTE IT OR FORWARDED IT!!!)

FROM G***I:

You all may remember that recently some truths and half truths were
spread about the jats on this forum by some people like Hayyer (I may
have spread some as well).

Now while trying to read up on the Aryan invasion (or not) I came up
on this site that explains the truth about the Jatts.

It also has in its reference section similar truths about India,
Pakistan, Brahamins etc. that i did not have time to read yet.

enjoy! http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat

 

[Alternative]

I am right now going through "Alexander the Greart" by Arrian, translated to English by John Rooke printed in 1814. This was presented as a gift to Harvard College by some Mrs.Brandegee in 1908 available on free online library.

In this book the author speaks of one Johann Freinsheim or also known under the Latinized form of the name, Johannes Frenshemius (November 16, 1608 – August 31, 1660) a german scholar. He is best known for his famous supplements to Quintus Curtius and Livy, containing the missing books written by himself. This scholar stated that Porus's father was no more than a barber.

However there seems to be an attempt by most other historians to link him with some kshatriya clan.

Now that complicates a lot of things, I would have thought that caste system might have been in place in mature form around 300 B.C. or so.

 

[KS]

enjoy! http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat

^^

No but seriously is there any refutal for this argument that Porus was a Jat like the one you gave to the "Porus was a Rajput" claim ?

 

[lkozhi]

He was over 6 feet looming around 7. jats are generally known for being very tall.

 

[KS]

He was over 6 feet looming around 7. jats are generally known for being very tall.

Seriously that alone could not be proof enough for anything. Heck I am 6 feet tall mate.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Seriously that alone could not be proof enough for anything. Heck I am 6 feet tall mate.

'So obviously you are a Jat.

 

[Joe Shearer]

^^

No but seriously is there any refutal for this argument that Porus was a Jat like the one you gave to the "Porus was a Rajput" claim ?

the time interval. Like Rajputs, Jats came in late, with the incursions from the steppes. More than one sanskritisation process may have been going along together.

The earliest realistic reference to Jats is in the 8th century, and it is certain that such a tribe existed in the Sindh, formed the ruling aristocracy and supplying the army with its best soldiers.

 

[lkozhi]

the time interval. Like Rajputs, Jats came in late, with the incursions from the steppes. More than one sanskritisation process may have been going along together.

The earliest realistic reference to Jats is in the 8th century, and it is certain that such a tribe existed in the Sindh, formed the ruling aristocracy and supplying the army with its best soldiers.

I am not sure if we should worry about the caste aspects for this discussion.
for those interested : Puru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The astonishing fact is alexander pulled off shifting a major part of his army across the river in one night. Is there any equal to that in modern war.
I guess jhelum is a big river like ganga.

 

[lkozhi]

I went to library and found plutarch Read some very good notes though it is good to share:
1. Porus had a huge elephant still porus riding an elephant was like horseman riding a horse..He was that big.May be like khali of wwe. Karthic sri...
2. After the fight alexander saw porus sitting on the elephant being hailed with arrows. He picked one by one from his body and continued fighting. May be a reason why Mr. Alex was showing respect
3. Mr.Alex once asked an indian philosopher about government. The philospher took a dry skin mat and put in on the floor . He stepped on each edge and the other end came up then he stepped on the center. It indicated to Alex a proper govt should be created at the center than waste time at borders.
4. The same phil guy decided one day he lived enough and put a fire and slowly burned himself to death. Before that he told Alex he wont see babylon.
5. After that Alex bhais assistant opened xerxes (300 villain) coffin. In it was written "I know you will open this for you should know I was the king of this whole world now lying under this 6 feet".
I guess we basically pshyched him to death than by weapons..

 

[Joe Shearer]

From the responses that are coming in, the comments and the questions alike, it seems that we have more or less come to the end of the discussion on the Battle of the Hydaspes. It is time to draw the necessary edifying morals from the tale and move on.

1. It is not possible to go beyond the sources. If a fact or a possibility is not mentioned in explicit terms, we can only resort to latterday speculation and surmise. These remain speculation and surmise, our own interpolations into accounts of what happened, and cannot be allowed to override the originals.
2. Professional historians take note of all the original sources, however, and try to arrive at a balance between the differences in these accounts. To do that, they usually assess the reliability of each source, on whether it is a primary source, an eye-witness account, or a secondary source, a re-creation of an incident from primary sources; on the tendency of the author to stick to what he has at hand, or his tendency to stray and to speculate, or even his tendency to marshall facts ruthlessly to prove a point, excluding facts that do not suit this making of points;
3. Fables, legends and family histories remain fables, legends and family histories. At legendary Ayodhya on the banks of the Sarayu, a town which exists in the epic The Ramayana, the prince Sri Rama Chandra was born to King Dasaratha. This is legend. A mosque was built in a fifteenth century town named Ayodhya by Mir Baqi, a military commander of Jelal-ud-Din Babar. That is a fact. There are literally hundreds of family traditions and accounts which offer a wealth of detail about this and other fabled spots in India, which are not considered fact because of their lack of proveability. All traditional local or family accounts of the battle have to be treated the same way.
4. The historian writing years after the event is deprived of the dubious pleasures of direct observation, and has to deal with the accounts of others. However, he has access to collateral information - weaponry of the times, for instance, feudal relationships or political relationships prevailing, all of which help to build up a coherent, composite account. This is evident when studying the account or Arrian or the conclusions of Tarn.

With this, I will invite nominations for another of the Ten Battles; it could be a battle which highlights tactics and war-craft; on the other hand, it could be one of historical significance. I suppose it is too much to hope that nominations will combine the two, but there is no law against hoping

 

[niaz]

He was over 6 feet looming around 7. jats are generally known for being very tall.

As far as I know Sakas/Gaetas/Jats did not arrive in India until about 200 B.C. This was more than 100 years after the Alexander of Macedonia. Porus therefore could not have been a Jat.

Before the Greeks, western part of the subcontinent was a Satrapy (autonomous Province, more like States of the US) of the Persian Empire. It is more than likely; and I am only guessing; that ruling class of the Punjab were descendants of the Old Iranian aristocracy intermarried with the indigenous people. Porus was probably of the Aryan stock or a Kashytria.

Whatever his caste; it is enough that he was a son of Punjab and a warrior par excellence. That should be enough for any one of the subcontinent to honour him.

 

[Nalwa]

If you are willing to pay for a life insurance policy for me worth Rs. 5.0 crores or so (negotiable), I am willing to go on record and say what is the most likely position with regard to Porus being a Jat.

Nobody - nobody - least of all, poor old Joe, takes panga with a Jat. Or more than one of them.

Off the record, the Jats were probably part of the Saka-Pahlava lot who came flying in one hard-ridden horse-ride ahead of the fear-crazed Tocharians, themselves flying from the ferocious Hioung Nu (ask our Chinese friends for details; one of them in particular is very good at their own ancient history).

However, this is a potent topic. My home list is Silk List, but I used to be active at PakTeaHouse. There a group of us became very close and set up our own rather whimsical mailing list. One of us is a Jat, a mechanised Sardar now a very prosperous surgeon on the west coast, a loyal Indian who is, like the other Indians on that mailing list a committed friend of Pakistan, a guy who is trying to see if he can set up scholarships for Pakistani kids to come and train in medicine in India. He forwarded us this (REMEMBER, IT WASN'T I WHO WROTE IT OR FORWARDED IT!!!)

FROM G***I:

You all may remember that recently some truths and half truths were
spread about the jats on this forum by some people like Hayyer (I may
have spread some as well).

Now while trying to read up on the Aryan invasion (or not) I came up
on this site that explains the truth about the Jatts.

It also has in its reference section similar truths about India,
Pakistan, Brahamins etc. that i did not have time to read yet.

enjoy! http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jat

That is one funny piece Shearer and I have promptly shared it with my tribesmen, the Jatts. Dont worry I have kept your identity hidden!

On Porus, I read somewhere that he could have been a Janjua Rajput. The Janjuas are still a pretty well known community in Punjab and along with the Kambojas (another common surname in Punjab and Haryana) they ruled huge swathes of the Punjab in late BC times.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

-------------------------------------

 

[Joe Shearer]

As far as I know Sakas/Gaetas/Jats did not arrive in India until about 200 B.C. This was more than 100 years after the Alexander of Macedonia. Porus therefore could not have been a Jat.

Before the Greeks, western part of the subcontinent was a Satrapy (autonomous Province, more like States of the US) of the Persian Empire. It is more than likely; and I am only guessing; that ruling class of the Punjab were descendants of the Old Iranian aristocracy intermarried with the indigenous people. Porus was probably of the Aryan stock or a Kashytria.

Whatever his caste; it is enough that he was a son of Punjab and a warrior par excellence. That should be enough for any one of the subcontinent to honour him.

Please permit me to add to what you have written.

1. You are perfectly right about the dates being against Porus being a Jat, who came in 200 BC or later, prior to the Kushanas.
2. This part of the Persian Empire was actually three Satrapies, as we saw earlier in the thread; Sind, Gandhara and the Paropamisadae. The first Darius had them, the third Darius did not.
3. Nothing prevents a provenance for Porus of the sort you have suggested, descent from old Iranian artistocracy and intermarriage with local families. For one, the north-west of India and the north-east of Iran were very, very close for centuries before this, probably from 1,200 years before this, from around 1500 BC. There are mythical accounts of the very tall, very accomplished horseman, the prince of the Parama Kamboja, from the Trans-Oxus region, having commanded the Kuru army at the battle of Kurukshetra, and accounts of the slashing, irresistible charge of the Scythian cavalry (their locations on the steppes were identical, they spoke a tongue which was east Iranian for the Scythians, and very close to Sanskrit but curiously different for the Parama Kamboja) exist. It is tempting to agree to your suggestion. You are, however, the first to suggest it; it is an impressive insight.
4. There was a Persian presence, traders, administrators, soldiers, scholars, in Taxila, noticed by the Greeks. It is natural that there was.
5. Regarding Aryan stock, there was no Aryan race, only eminent families who spoke a familiar tongue and were therefore addressed as 'Arya', noble. Culturally, and of course, as a king, he was 'Arya'.
6. There is no direct evidence, but he was quite possibly a Kshatriya.

Your summation says it all, with grace.

Whatever his caste; it is enough that he was a son of Punjab and a warrior par excellence. That should be enough for any one of the subcontinent to honour him.