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The Battle of the Hydaspes: A Mystery in the Mists of Time

In an extension of Alternative's answers, which I agree with totally, I invite you to feel free to cite the Puranas on the subject of the battle of the Hydaspes. Be our guest. :angel:

Come on Joe i am sure they will have nothing on this battle. I was just talking about our country's history in general, ok i accept i have been proved a fool.
 
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Ok Joe now i have been searching for more material on this and i have come up on this site where the writings on the history of alexander are classified and discussed in general. I am sure this would help everybody who doesn't know about these would know something (i mean like me). I will post two excerpts if u think these are unncessary or rubbish please say so and i will stop as i have no intention of hijacking this thread.

Alexander the Great: the 'good' sources

There are many ancient sources on the career of the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great: the Library of world history of Diodorus of Sicily, Quintus Curtius Rufus' History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia, a Life of Alexander by Plutarch of Chaeronea and the Anabasis by Arrian of Nicomedia are the best-known. All these authors lived more than three centuries after the events they described, but they used older, nearly contemporary sources, that are now lost. In this article, the texts from the 'good tradition' are discussed.

Official propaganda: Callisthenes

In Alexander's company was a professional historian named Callisthenes of Olynthus (c.370-327), who had already published a Greek history of the years 387-356. The two men may have met as members of the circle around the Macedonian philosopher Aristotle of Stagira, who was an uncle of the historian and the teacher of the future king. During the campaign, Callisthenes' main duty was to write the Deeds of Alexander, but he was also sent on scientific missions. When Alexander was in Egypt, he sent his historian to Nubia, where he discovered the cause of the Nile flood; and in Babylon, Callisthenes supervised the translation of the Astronomical diaries, which were used by Callipus of Cyzicus to reform the Greek calendars.

In the summer of 327, Callisthenes voiced protests against the introduction of proskynesis (an aspect of the Persian court ritual) among the Macedonians, and lost Alexander's favor (more...). It is not clear what happened to Callisthenes: Aristobulus and Ptolemy, officers who were present and wrote histories of the campaign, gave different accounts - he either died in prison or was crucified.

The book of Deeds of Alexander is now lost, but underlies much of what was written later. It seems to have been the work of a professional flatterer who knew how to please a king who had developed a life-long rivalry with Achilles. For example, it contained many allusions to Homer's Iliad, a calculation of the date of the fall of Troy (exactly thousand years before Alexander's visit to the sacred city), and references to towns mentioned by Homer and visited by Alexander. Callisthenes stressed Alexander's manly behavior and the effeminate weakness of the Persians. Another story that Alexander must have appreciated is that of the sea doing obedience to the new Achilles (text). One thing is certain: Callisthenes did not object to Alexander's claim to be the son of Zeus.

It is not clear when the book of Deeds of Alexander was published. But secondary authors do not quote it to describe the events after 329, and it is possible that Callisthenes considered the death of Bessus, the last leader of the Persians, to be a fitting climax of his history: after all, Alexander had now conquered the whole of Persia, had reached the Jaxartes, had founded Alexandria Eschatê, and seemed to have triumphed after exactly five years of fighting. (A couple of months later, fighting was renewed.)

Be this as it may, it is certain that the work was not published in yearly installments to inform those remaining at home (as Julius Caesar was to publish his Commentaries on the war in Gaul). It was published as a unity, which can be shown from the fact that it consistently portrayed Alexander's right hand man Parmenion as overprudent. Before 330, there was no reason to describe Alexander's most trusted and capable general like this; however, in November, he had been executed because his son Philotas was suspected of a coup (text).

It seems that later historians had access to a sequel to Callisthenes' Deeds of Alexander. This work was perhaps based on the Royal diary that is quoted by several authors who describe the death of Alexander (text). That would explain why we have detailed information about chronology and appointments. However, this is not certain.

Callisthenes' book on the Deeds of Alexander and the Royal diary are primary sources. They are now lost, but were used by secondary authors like Cleitarchus and Ptolemy, who are at the beginning of the 'vulgate' and the 'good' tradition. Therefore, they share the same chronology and mention the same officials. Their works are now lost too, but can be reconstructed from tertiary sources: Diodorus of Sicily and Curtius Rufus, Arrian and Plutarch.


cont....
 
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Arrian of Nicomedia

Lucius Flavius Arrianus -or Arrian, as he is usually called in the English language- was born in Nicomedia, one of the Greek towns in the Roman empire, in c.87 CE. He read philosophy in Nicopolis, where the famous philosopher Epictetus had a small school, which counted the future emperor Hadrian among its students. Arrian joined the army, was stationed in Bavaria, must have visited Germania, and took part in the Parthian war of the emperor Trajan (114-117).
When his friend Hadrian became emperor, Arrian was rewarded with a seat in the Senate. In the following years, he served as governor of Andalusia, became consul (129 or 130) and was governor of Cappadocia, where he fought a brief war against the Alans, a nomad tribe from Kazakhstan. Later, Arrian settled in Athens, where he died after 145.

In spite of his dazzling career in the Roman government, Arrian found time to write many books. A catalogue shows his philosophic, historical, topographic-ethnographic and military interests, which culminate in his books on Alexander

eight books containing the teachings of Epictetus (four books survive);
twelve books containing Epictetus' conversations (lost);
a Meteorology - the study skies were considered part of the usual philosophical curriculum (lost);
a History of Bithynia in eight books (lost; excerpt);
a work on the Alans (lost);
a History of the Parthian wars in seventeen books, of which ten were devoted to the war in which the author had taken part (lost; an excerpt survives);
a book on military tactics (the part on cavalry survives);
a military handbook on the best tactics in a war against the Alans - he advises to fight as Alexander had done;
biographies of Dion of Syracuse, Timoleon of Corinth and a bandit named Tilliboros (all lost);
a book on hunting;
a description of the Black Sea in twenty-five books;
the seven books of the Anabasis: the history of Alexander's march into Asia (excerpt);
the Indikê (one book), telling about the marvels of India and the voyage home of Alexander's admiral Nearchus;
the ten books Events after Alexander, known from a Byzantine summary.

The Anabasis (Journey Up-Country) is the most important source on the reign of Alexander. The reason is that Arrian ignored Cleitarchus' immensely popular History of Alexander and used other sources. In the prologue, Arrian explains why:
It seems to me that Ptolemy and Aristobulus are the most trustworthy writers on Alexander's conquests, because the latter shared Alexander's campaigns, and the former -Ptolemy- in addition to this advantage, was himself a king, and it is more disgraceful for a king to tell lies than for anybody else

Few modern scholars will be impressed by the last remark, but all of them agree that Arrian chose the right sources for the right reason: Ptolemy and Aristobulus had been eyewitnesses. However, Alexander had read more than these two authorities and offers sometimes stories that he had not found in these authors.


Another quality is that he knows what he is writing about. He knew what it meant to fight a war, he had been a provincial governor and had lived at the imperial court. Moreover, the war against the Parthians had offered him an opportunity to visit Mesopotamia, and he probably visited places like Gaugamela and Babylon. To Arrian, it seemed that all his life had been a prelude to the writing of this work: in the prologue, he says that to him, the literary activity was his country and his family and his countless public offices, and had been right from his youth. (He modestly added 'I therefore think that I am not unworthy of the first rank in Greek letters, just as Alexander was of the first rank in military matters.')

Like Cleitarchus, Arrian tried to give some sort of assessment of Alexander, but his opinion is the opposite of Cleitarchus', who had presented the Macedonian king as a young prince who had been corrupted by his constant success. Arrian, on the other hand, admires Alexander, although he is too much a philosopher to be completely uncritical. Sometimes, he condemns aspects of the conqueror's behavior, but as a whole, he is positive about Alexander's achievements. A typical part of the Anabasis is book 4, where Arrian places three painful incidents together and condemns Alexander's behavior: chronologically, two of them do not belong at this place, and by treating them together, he has prevented that the reader came up against the hard facts too often.

As we noticed in the catalogue above, Arrian also published an Indikê, which is essentially an appendix to the Anabasis. This remarkable text probably tells less about India than about the literary tastes of Arrian's age. To start with, it is entirely based on the Indikê by Alexander's fleet-commander Nearchus. More recent descriptions are quoted by several Christian authors and Arrian's younger contemporary Philostratus, but Arrian chose to ignore these recent sources because they were written in "Koinê-Greek", which was considered ugly in the second century CE. Nearchus, on the other hand, had written decent 'classical' Greek and even though the contents of his Indikê were outdated, Nearchus was to be preferred. A second point is that Arrian choose to write his own Indikê in the Ionian dialect. This was done because the classical text on geography, the Histories of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, were written in that dialect and contained no reliable information on India.

As we already saw, Arrian also wrote a book on the Events after Alexander. It is known from a summary by the Byzantine patriarch Photius (820-897), and breaks off rather abruptly. Maybe this work remained unfinished (more...).

It is a tribute to the quality of these works and their author, that modern scholarship usually follows Arrian, who personifies the 'good' tradition, and adds details from the authors of the 'vulgate' tradition. It is only since the publication of the Astronomical diary (1988) that oriental texts are receiving attention.

Ptolemy

Ptolemy was born in 367 and was a youth friend of Alexander. He took part in the battle of Issus, joined the journey to the oracle of Ammon, was present during the burning of Persepolis (his mistress Thais played an important role; text), and had his first independent commands during the wars in Sogdia. He was never one of Alexander's main commanders, but remained one of his closest friends and bodyguards,a title that means something like adjutant.
Ptolemy rose to prominence immediately after the death of Alexander: he was appointed satrap of Egypt and started to behave as an independent ruler. Alexander's mentally deficient brother Arridaeus was unable to prevent it, and his regent, general Perdiccas, came with an army to Egypt to discipline Ptolemy, but he was defeated. A few months later, Ptolemy managed to obtain Alexander's dead body (320), which was interred in Mamphis and, later, in Alexandria. After this, he was recognized as an independent ruler, and had himself proclaimed king in 306. This, and not the conquest by Alexander, meant the formal end of the unity of the Achaemenid empire.

Ptolemy wrote memoirs on Alexander's campaigns. They are almost entirely known from Arrian's Anabasis, but this is sufficient to come to some conclusions about their nature. In the first place, he uses Callisthenes' Deeds of Alexander and a sequel, because he has the correct chronology of the events and knows the names of the appointees. In the second place, Ptolemy sometimes exaggerates his own role. For example, he gave himself an important role in the battle near Issus. In the third place, the work was biased against Antigonus Monophthalmus, one of Ptolemy's rivals in the wars after the death of Alexander; Antigonus' successful campaigns in what is now Turkey, are completely ignored. In the fourth place, Ptolemy concentrated on the war; there are no indications that his memoirs contained digressions. A unifying psychological concept, like Cleitarchus' idea that Alexander's success corrupted him or Aristobulus' pothos-motif (below), seems to have been absent: in Ptolemy's view, Alexander had been a rational expansionist.

At one place, Ptolemy corrects Cleitarchus' account of Alexander's campaigns, and this proves that Ptolemy's history was published after theHistory of Alexander, which can be dated between 310 and 301. However, we can perhaps be a little bit more precise. There are indications that Ptolemy's memoirs were published before 301, because in that year, Antigonus was killed, which made Ptolemy's bias against his rival rather pointless. This argument, however, is not conclusive.

It is possible that Ptolemy started to write his memoirs in order to prove that he was worthy of the royal title he had assumed: for example, he wrote that he had killed an Indian king and had stripped him of his armor, an incident that must have reminded his readers of the behavior of the heroes of Homer, who had been kings

cont..
 
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Aristobulus and other officers

Aristobulus was probably one of the friends of Alexander's father Philip and accompanied Alexander on his war in the East. Since he is never mentioned as a participant to the fights, it has been assumed that he was either a military engineer or a non-military official. It is certain that Alexander ordered him to repair the tomb of Cyrus the Great, which had been neglected or intentionally desecrated (text). Aristobulus may have lived in Alexandria, published his memoirs of the Persian campaign at the age of eighty-four, and died at Cassandria in Macedonia after 301.

Aristobulus' account of Alexander's conquests -a primary source- is best known from Arrian. It is also quoted by other authors, but there are indications that not all quotations are authentic. He may have been Alexander's greatest admirer, because when there are more than one versions of the same event, Aristobulus usually gives the kinder version. For example: all authorities agree that Alexander was a heavy drinker, but Aristobulus explains that this was merely because he loved to be with his friends. And when a drunken Alexander killed Clitus, Aristobulus says that it was Clitus' own mistake. Another example: Ptolemy writes that Alexander ordered Callisthenes, who had criticized him in public, to be crucified, and Aristobulus says that the man died in prison.
It is likely that the motif ofpothoswas introduced to the Alexander literature by Aristobulus. Pothos means 'longing', and this was believed to be a good way to describe Alexander's inner drive. So, our sources mention that Alexander was longing to cross the Danube, untie the legendary knot at Gordium, found an Egyptian city, go to the oracle of Ammon, visit Nysa, capture Aornus, sail the Ocean, or see the Persian Gulf (all these examples in Arrian). The word -or its Latin translation ingens cupido- became a standard description of Alexander, and perhaps one of the attractions of the idea was that pothos could also signify a desire to die: pothos was the name of the flower that Greeks placed on someone's tomb. An author who had used this word, could leave Alexander's behavior during battles and sieges and his drinking habits unexplained. Like Achilles, Alexander had chosen to be famous and die young.

Another officer who wrote memoirs, wasOnesicritus of Astypalaea (c.380-c.305). He was a pupil of the the famous philosopher Diogenes of Sinope, who had had a famous conversation with Alexander in Corinth (text). Onesicritus is not heard of during the first half of Alexander's campaign and makes his first appearance in our sources in 326, when he translated the conversation between Alexander and the Indian sages at Taxila.
During the voyage to the south, Onesicritus was the helmsman of Alexander's royal ship; when a large part of the Macedonian army had to be shipped back to Babylonia, he was also present.

After his return, he published How Alexander was educated, a primary source that is now lost. It is certain, however, that in this book, he claimed to have been the commander of the fleet, which was not true and caused admiral Nearchus to write an account of his own.

This Nearchus was born on Crete but had grown up in Amphipolis in Macedonia; he had befriended the crown prince Alexander and was appointed satrap of Lycia and Pamphylia in 334. In 329, he was recalled and brought reinforcements to Alexander, who was in Bactria. In India, Nearchus initially had some minor commands, but was made admiral of the Macedonian navy (326); in this quality, he was responsible for the transport of the army to the Ocean and -later- for the shipping of troops to Babylonia. In 324, he married to a daughter of Alexander's Persian mistress Barsine. After the death of Alexander, he backed Heracles, the son of Alexander and Barsine; the boy was killed, however, and Nearchus retired to write a book called Indikê.
The Indikê is now lost, but its contents are well-known from several sources, especially the Indikê by Arrian. It seems to have consisted of two parts: the first half contained a description of India's borders, size, rivers, population, castes, animals -especially elephants-, armies and customs; the second half described Nearchus' voyage home. It also contained some remarks about Onesicritus, who is portrayed as incompetent. (An example can be found here.) Nearchus' Indikê seems to have ended with a description of the last days of Alexander.

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Plutarch of Chaeronea

It is not exaggerated to say that, together with Augustine of Hippo and Aristotle of Stagira, Plutarch of Chaeronea (46-c.120) is the most influential ancient philosopher. He may lack the the profundity of Augustine -the most influential philosopher in the early Middle Ages- and the acumen of Aristotle -considered the master of all intellectuals of the late Middle Ages-, but the sage of Chaeronea is an excellent writer and from the Renaissance to the present day, his 227 moral treatises have found a larger audience than any other ancient philosopher. In his own age, he was immensely popular because he was able to explain philosophical discussions to non-philosophical readers, Greek and Roman alike. The fact that he was priest in Delphi will no doubt have improved his popularity.

His oeuvre consists of biographies and moral treatises. The latter group contains books dealing with practical moral problems; they have titles like Checking anger, The art of listening, How to know whether one progresses to virtue, Must an old man be politically active?, Keeping up your spirits or Advice to bride and groom. Plutarch's biographies are in fact moral treatises too: he describes the careers of a Greek and a Roman, and compares them. For example, he describes the lives of the founders of Athens and Rome, Theseus and Romulus, and in a brief epilogue penetrates into their respective characters. The result is not only an entertaining biography, but also a better understanding of a morally exemplary person - which the reader can use for his own moral improvement.
Plutarch writes in the prologue of his Life of Alexander/Life of Julius Caesar:

It is not histories I am writing, but lives; and in the most glorious deeds there is not always an indication of virtue of vice, indeed a small thing like a phrase or a jest often makes a greater revelation of a character than battles where thousands die.
[tr. E.L. Bowie]
This is a good description of what Plutarch has to offer. He will not give an in-depth comparative analysis of the causes of the fall of the Achaemenid empire and the Roman Republic, but offers anecdotes with a moral pointe. We should read his Life of Alexander as a collection of short stories, in which virtues and vices are shown.
The most important theme (one might say: Plutarch's vision on Alexander's significance in world history) is that he brought civilization to the barbarians and made them human; Alexander is, so to speak, a practical philosopher, who improves mankind in a rather unusual but effective way. This theme is more explicitly worked out in a writing called The fortune and virtue of Alexander (example). Alexander's presumed philosophical interests are shown in stories like Alexander's conversation with Diogenes.

Plutarch has read many books on Alexander, and one cannot simply say that he belongs to the 'vulgate' tradition (which follows Cleitarchus) or the 'good' tradition (which follows Ptolemy). He tells his own, moral story and has taken elements from all traditions. His Life of Alexander is especially interesting because it contains a great many childhood stories, which he seems to have taken from a book called Alexander's education, written by a Macedonian named Marsyas, who went to school with the crown prince. (He may have been the son of Antigonus, the enemy of Ptolemy mentioned above.)

If the reader of this article has the impression that Plutarch is a boring moralist, he is mistaken. His sincere interest in Alexander and his men as human beings makes the Life the most readable of all publications on the Macedonian king - both ancient and modern.
 
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This is the order of sources that spawned the writing of history on Alexander. After reading this i feel that some how each source has its own deficiencies, we cannot call them completely unreliable but may be written with a purpose other than stating history. I may be wrong too in my interpretation, Regarding tarn also i found something on wiki, how much is that relevant u have to say.

This is what wiki says:

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869–November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great. He was a Fellow of the British Academy (1928).
Tarn made a rather idealistic interpretation of the Alexander's conquests, as being essentially driven by his vision of the "unity of mankind", in line with the interpretation of Plutarch (Alexander the Great, Vol. 1).
Dr. Jeanne Reames remarked that "Tarn's portrait of Alexander turned the Macedonian conqueror into a proper Scottish gentleman (as was Tarn himself). Engaging in sometimes elaborate apologetics to explain away Alexander's questionable decisions, Tarn painted him as the original philosopher in armor, a chivalrous young king who brought higher Greek culture to the poor benighted barbarians.(...) [Tarn's] two-volume biography of Alexander and his article in the "Cambridge Ancient History" influenced the popular thinking of future generations even after in scholarly circles his theories had been torpedoed by Harvard's Ernst Badian. In fact, portrayals of Alexander in some high school and college world history text books still reflect Tarn more than anyone who has come after". Reames also saw Tarn's strong influence in Mary Renault's trilogy of historical novels about Alexander - though Renault's acknowledged Alexander's homo-erotic tendencies, while Tarn had regarded references to them in ancient sources as "defamations" which the Macedonian king had to be defended against [1].
He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians and Indo-Greeks, thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical Western and Indian sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.
 
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Now we can move on to the vulgate sources

Diodorus of Sicily

The oldest surviving Greek source on the conquests of Alexander is book seventeen of the Library of world history by the Sicilian author Diodorus, who was active between 65/60 and 35/30 BCE and worked in both Alexandria and Rome.
Diodorus' Library consisted of forty books, of which 1-5 and 11-20 survive completely (the other volumes are known from Byzantine excerpts). The first book deals with the legendary past of Egypt; the second with the ancient history of Assyria and Babylonia (based on the History of the Persians by Ctesias); and Libya is dealt with in the third book. In the next three books, the Greek antiquities are described. Book seven deals with the Trojan War, and after that, Diodorus retells Greek history until the reign of Alexander in ten books. These books contain digressions on contemporary events in Rome and Agyrium, the otherwise almost unknown town on Sicily where Diodorus was born. The history of the Mediterranean world after Alexander's death is the subject of books 18-40. It may be noted that books 11-20 are the only surviving continuous account of the Greek 'classical' age.

As a historian, Diodorus is as good as his sources:

the History of Ephorus of Cyme on Greece until 356;
an unknown author on the the years 359-336, i.e. the reign of the Macedonian king Philip (Diodorus' sixteenth book; an example is the description of the battle of Chaeronea);
Cleitarchus' History on the conquests of Alexander (book seventeen; an example is the account of the sack of Persepolis);
the book by Hieronymus of Cardia on the wars after Alexander's death (an example is the description of Alexander's last plans); and so on.
Modern scholars have severely criticized Diodorus, who was, in their vision, uncritical. This is exaggerated and the latest research offers something of a rehabilitation: the Sicilian author wanted to write an easily accessible world history, and knows how to tell a story. His theme, how disunited cultures were growing to one Mediterranean civilization under Roman rule, is well-worked out and was certainly appreciated by his contemporaries.
Alexander played an important role in the Library of world history. After all, he brought Egypt, the Achaemenid empire, Libya and Greece in closer contact with each other - four civilizations that Diodorus has already introduced in books 1-4, long before he begins to write about Alexander himself.

Diodorus' source for his book on Alexander was Cleitarchus, a secondary source that will be discussed below.

Q. Curtius Rufus

Disregarding some minor authors, Quintus Curtius Rufus is the only Roman writer whose work, the History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia, on Alexander has survived. The author was probably a military commander who rose to a senatorial position under the emperor Tiberius, who parried criticism on Curtius' lowly birth (son of a gladiator) with the quip that here at last was a man who owed his career to himself. However, Curtius' road to the top was barred after the fall of his patron, the notorious Seianus. Between 31 and 41, Curtius composed the History of Alexander, which he published under the emperor Claudius. He was consul in 43 and died in 53 as governor of Africa. (Main source: Cornelius Tacitus, Annals, 11.20-21).
Originally, the History of Alexander consisted of ten books, and although the work was very popular in the Middle Ages (it is known from more than a hundred manuscripts), the first two books are now missing. They contained the events between the accession of Alexander and the death of the Persian commander Memnon of Rhodes. Our manuscripts start when the Macedonian army marched through Phrygia, in the Spring of 333; the last book ends with the burial of Alexander's body in a golden sarcophagus, which was later brought to Egypt (321).

Taken as a whole, it is a very fascinating book, although it contains many errors. Both can be explained from the fact that it has Cleitarchus as its source: the author of this secondary source had, as we will see below, written a fine history that focused on Alexander's presumed psychological development - from a brilliant young conqueror to a paranoid despot. This psychological dimension makes Curtius' History of Alexander good reading and the Roman readers must have seen through it: of course, the real subject was not Alexander, but their tyrannical emperor Caligula. Curtius also copies Cleitarchus' mistakes, although he is not an uncritical imitator: he has read other sources (Ptolemy, Aristobulus) and sometimes corrects his model. Curtius may not have been a great historian, but he certainly tried to be critical, and -as we shall see below- he offers many interesting stories that we do not find in our best source, Arrian, to which he is a valuable addition.

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The 'vulgate': Cleitarchus

Q. Curtius Rufus and Diodorus of Sicily are tertiary sources, who elaborated a secondary source, the History of Alexander by Cleitarchus. According to one source (Pliny the Elder, Natural history 3.57-58), this author was in Babylon when Alexander received an embassy from Rome; it may be true, but it is a bit strange that Curtius does not mention the presence of Roman envoys, although he and his audience must have liked this detail from Cleitarchus' history. On the other hand, Curtius Rufus' texts contains lacunas. There are no other indications that Cleitarchus met Alexander.
What is certain, however, is that Cleitarchus lived in Alexandria and was the son of a historian named Dinon of Colophon, who was the author of a Persian history (now lost). Cleitarchus may have started his research after Ptolemy, one of Alexander's generals and the future king of Egypt, had ordered Alexander's dead body to be brought to Egypt; the History of Alexander was finished between 310 and 301. (Probably in the first part of this period, because there is one clue that Ptolemy's account of Alexander's wars, which appeared after the History of Alexander, was published before 301.)

His main source may have been the work of Alexander's court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus (to be discussed below). However, this work only covered the period until 329, and Cleitarchus added information from other sources; among these were the memoirs of Onesicritus of Astypalaea and Nearchus, Alexander's helmsman and his fleet commander. Another source of information was available in Alexandria: there were many Macedonian and Greek veterans living in this city, and they must have told Cleitarchus about their adventures. Perhaps Cleitarchus had already to make notes in Babylon.

His book was -if popularity is an indicator- the most entertaining history of Alexander's conquests. It offered many vivid descriptions and eyewitness accounts, usually from a soldier's point of view. We know these stories from Diodorus' Library of world history and the History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia by Curtius Rufus, because Cleitarchus' own book is now lost. However, Diodorus and Curtius Rufus retell the stories often in almost identical words, which gives us a good idea of the History of Alexander. The following texts are examples:

Curtius' description of the fall of Tyre, including a description of a mass crucifixion;
Diodorus' account of the destruction of Persepolis;
Curtius' report about the surrender of Babylon;
Curtius' story of the Babylonian women, which may, in its ethnographic detail, be influenced by the Persian history of Dinon;
Curtius' account of the crossing of the Hindu Kush.
These stories all go back to eyewitnesses; a man like the court historian Callisthenes would not write about the mass crucifixion at Tyre, and the history of Ptolemy -which was written from a commander's point of view- would not deal with the difficulties that the soldiers experienced in the Hindu Kush. To modern historians, the value of Cleitarchus (that is: Diodorus and Curtius) is the presence of these details, which would otherwise be unknown.
Another aspect of Cleitarchus' work that deserves to be mentioned, is the psychological portrait of Alexander, which is painted in dark shades. In Cleitarchus' opinion, the young king was corrupted by his constant good fortune and became an alcoholic, a tyrant, and a murderer. Modern scholars do not deny the facts that Cleitarchus mention, but tend to give another interpretation. For example, according to Curtius/Cleitarchus, Alexander started to change after the death of his opponent king Darius III of Persia; from then on there was no check on Alexander's vices. But many incidents that should prove this psychological development, can better be explained from the fact that Alexander had to behave as a Persian king if he wanted to be accepted by his new subjects.

Summing up, we can say that Cleitarchus' work combined vivid descriptions, eyewitness accountants and a dark psychological portrait of Alexander. He also delights in fantastic tales and he sometimes sacrificed historical reliability to keep the story entertaining and to stress the psychological development. Therefore, Cleitarchus' History of Alexander contains many errors (some serious).

Cleitarchus' work is often called 'the vulgate' (Diodorus and Curtius Rufus being 'the vulgate tradition'). It is indeed a popular story: its contains romantic details, a convincing (but incorrect) psychological portrait, fantastic stories. It is certainly not a bad source, but as we shall see below, modern historians prefer the account of Arrian, which is based on terse primary sources like Ptolemy. These are called the 'good' tradition.
 
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If you think that i posted rubbish please ignore them and i will keep to the discussion. An amature like me may think that he has posted something valuable but it could be pure crap too. There are more on this site, you can please check it out

The 'good' sources on Alexander the Great
 
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If you think that i posted rubbish please ignore them and i will keep to the discussion. An amature like me may think that he has posted something valuable but it could be pure crap too. There are more on this site, you can please check it out

The 'good' sources on Alexander the Great

On the contrary, I am astounded, delighted at the amount of work that you have put in. It gives me an opportunity to go straight into criticism of the classical sources (from the military history point of view only) as well as the commentary on the accounts of the battle, as soon as I have finished entering Chapter XIX from Arrian, assuming that the readers will allow me to leave transcription of the other classical accounts for a while.

This process is precisely the one that is necessary to establish a good historical account, a reconstruction of events at which we were not ourselves present. History is essentially a reconstruction, a balancing of different sources with different emphases on events, with different interpretations based on the reported events as they have been presented by different sources: the interpretation might be the interpretation of the source providing the information, it might be a third party, that is, it might be Ptolemy's account and his own interpretation of the account, or it might be Tarn's.
 
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Come on Joe i am sure they will have nothing on this battle. I was just talking about our country's history in general, ok i accept i have been proved a fool.

First, I was partly pulling your leg, but not entirely. With a little difficulty, it is possible to write about, say, the mythical Battle of Kurukshetra in rather similar terms as we have written about the Battle of the Hydaspes. You might try doing it to see what the problems are. One major problem, of course, is that we cannot consider biases in the account that we have, because of a seeming lack of alternative accounts of the battle.

In the case of the Battle of the Hydaspes, on the other hand, it is possible to compare the different accounts of the battle available to us from different sources, and to consider the importance of each aspect of the battle, or even to reconstruct an alternative picture of the battle.

The point that I am trying to make, again and again, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, is that it is not open to anybody and everybody to offer an opinion, unless he or she is familiar with the information. This is directly provoked by the intervention of fan-boys who wish to introduce some piece of myth from acknowledged mythical accounts as proven historical fact, or by others who wish to have one battle of the other, one commander or the other judged to be superior because of the importance of that battle or commander in a cultural context, rather than a military context. To both, it is my earnest request that they start with the facts. What you have outlined in your researched extracts is an effort not to furnish the facts, but the best sources, and also an intelligent, balanced criticism of the sources themselves.

Together, information, sources and critical evaluation of sources and information give us history, the only kind that is relevant.
 
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First, I was partly pulling your leg, but not entirely. With a little difficulty, it is possible to write about, say, the mythical Battle of Kurukshetra in rather similar terms as we have written about the Battle of the Hydaspes. You might try doing it to see what the problems are. One major problem, of course, is that we cannot consider biases in the account that we have, because of a seeming lack of alternative accounts of the battle.

In the case of the Battle of the Hydaspes, on the other hand, it is possible to compare the different accounts of the battle available to us from different sources, and to consider the importance of each aspect of the battle, or even to reconstruct an alternative picture of the battle.

The point that I am trying to make, again and again, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, is that it is not open to anybody and everybody to offer an opinion, unless he or she is familiar with the information. This is directly provoked by the intervention of fan-boys who wish to introduce some piece of myth from acknowledged mythical accounts as proven historical fact, or by others who wish to have one battle of the other, one commander or the other judged to be superior because of the importance of that battle or commander in a cultural context, rather than a military context. To both, it is my earnest request that they start with the facts. What you have outlined in your researched extracts is an effort not to furnish the facts, but the best sources, and also an intelligent, balanced criticism of the sources themselves.

Together, information, sources and critical evaluation of sources and information give us history, the only kind that is relevant.

Thank you, yes the extracts only try to point out the designs of the writers , i will try to find out more of the facts from now on and leave this kind of work to the intelligent (like you).

The problem is that the original four books aren't available for free download easily (blame it on my Indian mind :lol:) i have found the history of alexander by Tarn but it turned out to be the volume 2. I am trying to find out the works of arianne and others in english as it seems i am playing in the dark without reading them and which obviously u have gone through. Without these i am left with works of some professors found widely on the google but i think i get the point of yours when u say stick to facts. May be when we read the originals rather than tertiary ones we can analyse better.

Regarding military history, these sources point very little unfortunately. Rather they harp on alexanders sexual interests and other silly issues. I am unaware of the military knowledge properly like what is a phalanx , flanking manuovers . Infantry cavalry their uses etc which i am now reading up to be able to understand when i read about the battles.

In the articles i posted i wanted to but left out a narrative of sources other than greek, i think persian called the astronomical diary. It goes on about the battle of gauagamela (and ofcourse other things, this particular narrative shows how the contradictions exist when taken up with other sources of history)

"It suggests that the Persian soldiers were demoralized and states that they left their king and fled during the battle (text). This is exactly the opposite of what we read in the four tertiary sources, Diodorus, Curtius Rufus, Plutarch and Arrian: they write that Darius left his soldiers.

The difference is easily explained. The battle was fought on a very dusty plain and it was impossible to see what was going on. At the end of the day, the Macedonians found themselves masters of the field, tried to reconstruct what had happened and assumed that Darius had fled. The official account of the battle was written by Callisthenes of Olynthus (below) and as we will see, the stories of Diodorus, Curtius Rufus, Plutarch and Arrian are derived from this account. Modern reconstructions of the battle of Gaugamela that ignore the Astronomical diary are therefore nothing but reconstructions of what the Macedonians thought that had happened, and not of the battle itself."

The last of my crap, so from here on i will stick to yours and read up on these originals.
 
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After reading accounts of the same battles and/ or events written by different authors, I came to the conclusion that most writers describe the event correctly regardless of the fact whether they are for or against a certain ruler. For example if Alexander won, it would be mentioned as such and very seldom a loss would be shown as victory.

Propaganda came in the details of the event. Victor may be credited with extra ordinary valour or would be shown to beat an army ten times the size of his own whereas in actual fact opposing armies were roughly equal in number. On the other hand a loss may be justified by saying that this was due to betrayal or because of extreme numerical inferiority. While it remains difficult to critically judged accounts of the ancient events; this becomes apparent when we read accounts of more recent battles. Mongolian invasion is case in point.

Most of the European and Iranian sources attribute Mongol victories to their numerical superiority. Any serious analyst would conclude that Mongolian Steppes was too sparsely populated (as it is to this day) to produce hundreds of thousands of Mongol soldiers that could overwhelm armies of the densely populated fertile lands of Eurasia and China. It was in fact their speed of advance and because Mongol used to split their forces and converge on a city from different directions that created the impression that Mongols were countless hordes. Needless to say that Mongols also had the good fortune of having very competent leadership.

My purpose for this digression was to say it doesn’t make a huge difference as to which of the sources you prefer to use as reference. Personally I have always preferred Callisthenes because he was eye witness to most of the events followed by Ptolemy for the same reason.

My preference for Callisthenes is also based the fact that he was not a professional soldier but a writer therefore probably more objective. To be honest I had not even heard of some of the sources mentioned by Hon Indushek.
However, I am only a reader of history, not a professional historian and my views are not necessarily correct.
 
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Thank you, yes the extracts only try to point out the designs of the writers , i will try to find out more of the facts from now on and leave this kind of work to the intelligent (like you)..............The last of my crap, so from here on i will stick to yours and read up on these originals.

It seems as the point((The point that I am trying to make, again and again, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record.............)), raised by 'Joe Shearer' is lost on you. That part of post was not 'directed' toward you, he was just sharing it with you. In Punjabi language we sum this up as;
"khehna Tee noo tay sunana Nu noo" :lol:
 
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These are, in fact, Indushek, excellent excerpts; you must read Alternative, however; he and Austerlitz understand me better than I do myself. I would like to indulge myself, nothing more, with a kind of running commentary on the very useful material that you have exhibited.

Ok Joe now i have been searching for more material on this and i have come up on this site where the writings on the history of alexander are classified and discussed in general. I am sure this would help everybody who doesn't know about these would know something (i mean like me). I will post two excerpts if u think these are unncessary or rubbish please say so and i will stop as i have no intention of hijacking this thread.

Alexander the Great: the 'good' sources

There are many ancient sources on the career of the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great: the Library of world history of Diodorus of Sicily, Quintus Curtius Rufus' History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia, a Life of Alexander by Plutarch of Chaeronea and the Anabasis by Arrian of Nicomedia are the best-known. All these authors lived more than three centuries after the events they described, but they used older, nearly contemporary sources, that are now lost. In this article, the texts from the 'good tradition' are discussed.

Official propaganda: Callisthenes

In Alexander's company was a professional historian named Callisthenes of Olynthus (c.370-327), who had already published a Greek history of the years 387-356. The two men may have met as members of the circle around the Macedonian philosopher Aristotle of Stagira, who was an uncle of the historian and the teacher of the future king. During the campaign, Callisthenes' main duty was to write the Deeds of Alexander, but he was also sent on scientific missions. When Alexander was in Egypt, he sent his historian to Nubia, where he discovered the cause of the Nile flood; and in Babylon, Callisthenes supervised the translation of the Astronomical diaries, which were used by Callipus of Cyzicus to reform the Greek calendars.

The Aristotelian connection is almost certain. Aristotle's strong influence on Alexander is legendary; it is fabled that the king slept with a copy of the Iliad annotated by his master under his pillow.

In the summer of 327, Callisthenes voiced protests against the introduction of proskynesis (an aspect of the Persian court ritual) among the Macedonians, and lost Alexander's favor (more...). It is not clear what happened to Callisthenes: Aristobulus and Ptolemy, officers who were present and wrote histories of the campaign, gave different accounts - he either died in prison or was crucified.

It is far more than compicated than that; almost the opposite, in fact. Callisthenes was known to write stories and accounts of Alexander's deeds in a flattering vein; he started the whole proskynesis nonsense, with his ridiculous story about the waves offering proskynesis.When Alexander introduced it for all, he was caught between a rock and a hard place. For a detailed analysis, read the extract, Alexander and Callisthenes (I will transcribe it soon).

The book of Deeds of Alexander is now lost, but underlies much of what was written later. It seems to have been the work of a professional flatterer who knew how to please a king who had developed a life-long rivalry with Achilles. For example, it contained many allusions to Homer's Iliad, a calculation of the date of the fall of Troy (exactly thousand years before Alexander's visit to the sacred city), and references to towns mentioned by Homer and visited by Alexander. Callisthenes stressed Alexander's manly behavior and the effeminate weakness of the Persians. Another story that Alexander must have appreciated is that of the sea doing obedience to the new Achilles (text). One thing is certain: Callisthenes did not object to Alexander's claim to be the son of Zeus.

The claim to be son of Zeus was rooted in the reputed heritage of the Macedonian kings. What Callisthenes did introduce, to Alexander's dislike, was the story of the priest of Ammon greeting Alexander as son of Ammon. Alexander's experience at the temple of Ammon seems to have been mystic and powerful, and he did not like being called son of Ammon; it drove him to fury.

It is not clear when the book of Deeds of Alexander was published. But secondary authors do not quote it to describe the events after 329, and it is possible that Callisthenes considered the death of Bessus, the last leader of the Persians, to be a fitting climax of his history: after all, Alexander had now conquered the whole of Persia, had reached the Jaxartes, had founded Alexandria Eschatê, and seemed to have triumphed after exactly five years of fighting. (A couple of months later, fighting was renewed.)

Be this as it may, it is certain that the work was not published in yearly installments to inform those remaining at home (as Julius Caesar was to publish his Commentaries on the war in Gaul). It was published as a unity, which can be shown from the fact that it consistently portrayed Alexander's right hand man Parmenion as overprudent. Before 330, there was no reason to describe Alexander's most trusted and capable general like this; however, in November, he had been executed because his son Philotas was suspected of a coup (text).

It seems that later historians had access to a sequel to Callisthenes' Deeds of Alexander. This work was perhaps based on the Royal diary that is quoted by several authors who describe the death of Alexander (text). That would explain why we have detailed information about chronology and appointments. However, this is not certain.

Callisthenes' book on the Deeds of Alexander and the Royal diary are primary sources. They are now lost, but were used by secondary authors like Cleitarchus and Ptolemy, who are at the beginning of the 'vulgate' and the 'good' tradition. Therefore, they share the same chronology and mention the same officials. Their works are now lost too, but can be reconstructed from tertiary sources: Diodorus of Sicily and Curtius Rufus, Arrian and Plutarch.


cont....
 
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@indushek

For the other descriptions, these are already at such a detailed level, considering the venue, that any further annotation would reduce our discussion to a very minute level of detail.

May I compliment you on what you have presented? For the rest, please consult Alternative's mildly malicious but still very relevant and useful advice; what he says usually stings, but is usually sensible and always in good taste. Think of him as an excess of wasabi.
 
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@indushek

For the other descriptions, these are already at such a detailed level, considering the venue, that any further annotation would reduce our discussion to a very minute level of detail.

May I compliment you on what you have presented? For the rest, please consult Alternative's mildly malicious but still very relevant and useful advice; what he says usually stings, but is usually sensible and always in good taste. Think of him as an excess of wasabi.

Ok, no pun was intended, may be you don't understand Punjabi;
khehna Tee noo tay sunana Nu noo :lol:
As of Wasabi, an alternate nick that I can adopt now is 'Jaggu Bhai' but I would prefer Jaggu Dada.:lol:
Now a question which is circling in my mind for a few days; what was the caste of Raja Porus?, Kshtriya? or Rajput? (in this case which clan), that can be evidenced from Greek sources. May be you can help me with this. Thanking you in advance.
 
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