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The atrocities in the 1971 civil war

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This is the first time when BD did not officially asked for international help. I still remember Hasina's comments that we dont want relief. You are coming up with wrong information all the time.

I know that its quite easy to take swaps at Pakistan's misfortunes to make yourselves feel better, however like India and Pakistan, BD is no different in getting aid and help from all over the world. See this:
USAID: Bangladesh: Links

We did not got nuclear as we did not want to. BD built thermo nuclear plant before France in 1962 and it was done by the state government not the central govt.

You did not need to because you have no active threat. You have to consider Negative Security Assurances in the case of BD. Pakistan is not so lucky.

We charge a Pakistani $2 for visa processing fee whereas Pakistan charges us $120 dollar if you live in USA. Do your math and dont break your head.
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But Pakistan charges everyone $120 for Visa fees and not Bangladeshis only. Last I checked that was a comparable amount to others.
 
I know that its quite easy to take swaps at Pakistan's misfortunes to make yourselves feel better, however like India and Pakistan, BD is no different in getting aid and help from all over the world. See this:
USAID: Bangladesh: Links
My comment had nothing to do with Pakistan. I was pointing to a specific false allegation raised by brobangladesh.

You did not need to because you have no active threat. You have to consider Negative Security Assurances in the case of BD. Pakistan is not so lucky.

I agree, still it was a response to the previous poster.
But Pakistan charges everyone $120 for Visa fees and not Bangladeshis only. Last I checked that was a comparable amount to others.

Bangladesh does reciprocating charging for visa processing fee. For instance we charge indians $20 dollar because they charge Bangladeshis $20 dollar, Japanese gets it free because they dont charge Bangladeshis. But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them $2 dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we? :smokin:
 
I am not sure about the validity of those numbers.

But what are you trying to say here
Mujib Khan will say his answer, but I think he was stating the figures as they were. Hindus of east Pakistan were more sufferers, but Muslims were more participant at the war of liberation. Probably, the BD Hindus thought the war was basically between two groups of Muslims. Their morale was also down because they were a minority group. So. many of the young Hindus refrained from taking part in the war. Moreover, they could have wanted to domicile in India. Also, to tell you frankly, Hindus in our country do not like to see blood.

Why do you suspect the validity of the figures. All those who participated in the liberation war know the figures are more or less correct.
 
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Mujib Khan will say his answer, but I think he was stating the figures as they were. Hindus of east Pakistan were more sufferers, but Muslims were more participant at the war of liberation. Probably, the BD Hindus thought the war was basically between two groups of Muslims. Their morale was also down because they were a minority group. So. many of the young Hindus refrained from taking part in the war. Moreover, they could have wanted to domicile in India. Also, to tell you frankly, Hindus in our country do not like to see blood.

Why do you suspect the validity of the figures. All those who participated in the liberation war know the figures are more or less correct.

well there was something about breaking people down to their religion, Making generalizations about their opinions and based on that and then keeping census data on specific religious groups based on that Info, A far to colonial era reminder.

Even if those numbers are valid why anyone would choose to gather and release that Info is beyond. all it does is serve to create a religious divide.

A geographic representation of the numbers would have been better

My opinnion
 
So basically you don’t have an answer other than some wishful speculation and some rhetoric. Your attempt at evasion is noted. Your attempt at strawman is noted. Your attempt at distorting history is noted. And you wrote only 4 paragraphs.
Number of deaths preceded by Hitler and Pol Pot? Nice one. Not even close is the reality. While I do not deny many East Pakistanis were killed, the number is nowhere even close.

The operations were not genocide. The Army action killed civilians without a doubt, but it was not one to kill off the entire East Pakistani population. So leave off this stretch of imagination with terms like "genocide" because not only are Pakistanis not buying it, the rest of the world also did not agree with this classification and the UN never considered the Pakistani operations or the resulting war in the context of "Genocide".
Since this is not a debate on number of deaths, I will leave it with one quote from R.J.Rummel’s, Death by Government.

“…Yahya Khan, a name still largely unknown outside of Pakistan and Bangladesh, killed in cold blood proportionally per year more people than Lenin, Stalin, or Mao Tse-tung. Of course, he must bow to Hitler and Pol Pot.” (pg 331; The Pakistani Cutthroat State)

To know if the world believes that the army ‘operations’ qualified as genocide, you will have to read up on some international writers. You might be surprised.
After you wrote the entire paragraph above, how is it any different than what you have done in Kashmir? At least 70,000 people have died (these are low ball estimates) and you have implemented a military solution to the point you thought you could come up with some semblance of a political structure to be put in place. Pakistan could have very much done the exact same.
How different is it? Well for starter, millions of Kashmiri refugees are not jumping the borders to escape ‘tyrannies’ of IA. In fact, the minority community has escaped Kashmir vale to escape the ‘freedom fighters’. For another, their political leaders are not hounded down, thrown to jail and then killed. They can hold political rallies and remonstrations or even canvass against GoI, as long as they do it peacefully.

And just so you know, the ‘political structure’, that you speak of, as well as civil institutions, was always there, albeit in a weakened form. These have only become stronger in the last decade and a half. India didn’t need to implement a ‘military solution’ to put that ‘political structure’ in place. In fact India, unlike Pakistan, had never sought a ‘military solution’ to Kashmir.

On a side note, not connected to this debate, you seem to approve of military operations until the state is comfortable with the situation. So why fuss about IA in Kashmir. After all you would have done the same in BD, only if you had the opportunity. For that matter, why fuss about US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
East Pakistanis were not distrusted by all and from the beginning. There were hard-headed people on both sides of the conflict.
You really really really need to do some serious reading, only this time, the memoirs of your generals.
East Pakistanis would have trusted the West Pakistanis the same way BDs and Pakistanis do things now.
Today BDs and Pakistanis do things on their own terms, as citizens of two sovereign nations, independent of each other. Taking this relationship as a scale to measure how the Bengalis of East Pakistan would have trusted West Pakistanis, after the brutal suppression of their demands, is, quiet frankly juvenile.

Besides, you seem to have missed the more vital question. Would the Pakistanis have ever trusted the Bengalis?
Time heals and you get over issues because this is not a personal issue. It was over differences of policies. Mistakes were made by the GoP and that is a realization, but the two people never bore ill-will toward each other (exceptions aside).
The problem with most Pakistanis is their tendency to oversimplify things. The ‘differences of policies’ became personal issues after 25/26 March, 1971 and continue to be so till date.
 
Do you argue against people because they go against the permanent sets of belief you have in your mind or do you actually have proof that they are, in fact, saying something wrong?

BD does not have to face the situation that currently Pakistan is facing, the war against terrorism, Talibans, conspiracy, threat from other countries etc. Pakistan has to spend a lot for the war going on there now . Have you forgotten that after 1998 flood how much AL begged for donation to the foreign? How much donation AL begged to Clinton during his visit in BD by showing the slums and poor people?

You spend in military when you have the money, not necessarily because you ought to spend it. How many of the wars Pakistan fought against India was initiated by India? Pakistan military can spend because USA and Saudi gives them the money to spend. Or did you think Pakistan spends from its own pocket? Did you really believe that? :what: Even to date, US senate gives billions of $ to Pakistan military. There is a fixed amount of donation USA gives to Pakistan military every year. Now it is okay to spend in military, strengthening country's defence but Pakistan is constantly begging for money to feed its own people! That's hypocrisy. Bangladesh's 1998 flood was a natural calamity, just like recent Kashmir Earthquake in Pakistan. Those are humanitarian crisis, not indicator of the economy during normal days. I never criticized Pakistan's asking for help during Kashmir earthquake! Why are you even bringing that issue?! I was talking about Pakistan's economy almost getting crushed in 2009 and the way Pakistan's post musharraf govt had to go all around the world and ask for money to just feed its people?! Was there any big natural disaster in 2009 in Pakistan? no! it was recession! Did Bangladesh suffer in the same extent? No! That just tells us about the comparative economic health of both the countries. I was answering to the outrageously false post of a Pakistani regarding our economy. All these distress in Pakistan's economy in 2009 did not stop the great Pakistan Army to modernize itself. That's the irony.

Elaborate it with proof as I do not know about it.

It's a fact, a part of history. When Suhrawardy was PM in 1956, Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission(PAEC) was established. He initiated the plan to build the first civilian nuclear power plant in Karachi. When Ayub Khan came to power, this plan was stalled and only started again in 1966 after indo-pak war.


If someone gets the chance to steal such a tech for military purpose then why he will buy that with lots of money? To me stealing of military tech is legal. And show me some other nation who has built their nuclear tech without help of other nation except USA, Russia, and Japan! And do you think if BD will get the all nuclear tech then BD can use these successfully as it needs to be talent to use it? Remember still there is no nuke plant, what a shame.

Where did I talk about buying nuclear warhead technology? I did not say acquiring nuclear tech is bad! Where are you getting them from? Read my post and think before jumping to absurd conclusion. The person I was responding to was being unnecessarily arrogant and proud of his country's nuclear capability as if it was invented by them or something while shunning Bangladesh . Do you have any idea how this exercising of nuclear power runs in this world?! If it was just about talent of scientists, then most countries would have nuclear capabilities. Iran could have made nuclear weapon! Even USA's nuclear weapon effort was fueled by German scientists! British, Russians and Americans raced to kidnap german scientists at the end of WW2. why? to accelerate their nuclear capabilities! Bangladesh is not even 40 years old! It is yet to become middle income country and out of everything, having nukes should be its headache? What world do you live in?! And I did not quite get your "having no talent" statement! are you saying Bengalis can't become nuke physicist?! Do you know even the current Indian nuclear research head is a Bengali? There were Bengali physicist and engineers in Pakistan's civilian nuclear research facility. Sheikh Hasina's late hubsand Wazed Mia was one of them. He was the head of Bangladesh's atomic energy commission too. We also have many other prominent nuclear physicist like Dr Ibrahim, brother of Dr Muhammad Yunus. Guys like him could have easily started a nuke program in our country. We just lack the foreign funding that Pakistan received for its strategic research and facilities. Think logically.


Kaptai dam and project (important source of our electricity) was made in Pakistan period. After then how many big dam has built? So do not bull.

Kaptai dam is a hydroelectric project, built to produce electricity. Its primary objective is to produce electricity, not to prevent flood. It was built by Pakistan for Pakistan with Pakistanis money. These Pakistanis included 70 million Bengalis. And during the same time when Kaptai was constructed, there were even larger power generation project happening in west Pakistan. and if you don't know, East Pakistan contributed 70% of the export currency and at least 60% of the GDP. Yet the development in East Pakistan was 30% of the total development in Pakistan. Did you notice the floods happening in Bangladesh? I was talking about flood controlling dam and barrage, not artificial hydro electric dam. I have a feeling I am writing all these for nothing. cause you seem determined not to realize the situation. You are talking about pumped-storage hydroelectricity dam as an example of flood controlling dam? Give me a break! There have been many local dams constructed in Bangladesh after 1971. In Chittagong port area and also in flood prone regions in Southern Bangladesh and also around some of the big rivers. Extensive works have been done. One can't expect Bangladesh to prevent flood like a developed country would for economic and geographic reasons.

Say, where it is and how it is the largest in Asia?

I said one of the largest. Well there are plenty. There is whole bunch of rings operating in Islamabad and Karachi. The biggest one is in Lahore. Hira Mandi is one of them. There is trafficking of Pashtun and Afghan refugee girls from NWFP to Lahore and other parts of the world.

**BTW, I won’t say your post is wholly wrong. But I must accuse you for seeding unfriendly attitude between BD and Pakistan relationship. It's so sick and bad of you that when Pakistanis and we want to build good relation forgetting the past then you busy with you wicked intentions.

so for the sake of good relation, we must erase the history? History is there. Nobody can deny it. If you have done something wrong, then you have to live with it. Future is not the truth, past is. Who is talking about bad relation between Pakistani and Bangladeshis? I have many Pakistani friends. Beside why would you forget the past when according to you Pakistanis were like angels! It is hypocritical of you that once you are defending the Pakistanis and the next moment you are saying "forget the past"! There was no problem on Bengali side to be friends with Pakistanis. And there is no problem now! Pakistanis committed the mistake and now by denying the facts and history, they want to be friends with us?! How could a Bangladeshi be friend with a Pakistani who comes and tells him, " You Bengalis were the culprits of 71, now I forgive you. lets become friends". This situation is precisely described by a Bengali proverb: "Goru mere juta daan".
 
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@^Post#44

Even you have some logics in you post but it seems u r infected!
 
But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them $2 dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we? :smokin:

Very gracious of your country. We appreciate it. :tup: I think in fairness, we charge everyone the same amount for Visa in the United States. Among other things, US Citizens of Pakistani origin pay close to $200 for getting a Pakistan Origin Card (essentially a Pakistani green card for expatriots). In other words, our Pakistani bureaucracy is expensive across the board for reasons best known to them only.
 
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But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them $2 dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we? :smokin:


Are you sure about this figure. We pay $50 for no visa requirment pass yet only 2 for pakistanis. :undecided:
 
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So basically you don’t have an answer other than some wishful speculation and some rhetoric. Your attempt at evasion is noted. Your attempt at strawman is noted. Your attempt at distorting history is noted. And you wrote only 4 paragraphs.

Death by writing is not my penchant. Sticking to facts works better.

Since this is not a debate on number of deaths, I will leave it with one quote from R.J.Rummel’s, Death by Government.

“…Yahya Khan, a name still largely unknown outside of Pakistan and Bangladesh, killed in cold blood proportionally per year more people than Lenin, Stalin, or Mao Tse-tung. Of course, he must bow to Hitler and Pol Pot.” (pg 331; The Pakistani Cutthroat State)

Unfounded speculation. First you have to agree upon how many were killed. There are speculations from 30,000 all the way up to 3 million. The truth of it was the first casualty of this war since it made sense for East Pakistanis back then and also for the Indian propaganda machinery to talk up the casualties to get support and sympathy from the world. Since you like quoting, let me do that as well with two different sources since one (Dawn) will most likely be negated by you in your duly noted efforts to instigate:

This is an excerpt from the book "The Myth of 3 Million" by Dr. M. Abdul Mumin Chowdhry (a Bangladeshi). Pay attention to the text in bold. Its bloody insane to talk about millions killed which is the common propaganda by the Indian side. He writes:

On 10th Jan 1972, the very day of his return to Bangladesh from prison in West Pakistan, he, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman publicly announced, 'Three million people have been killed. I believe that there is no parallel in the history of the world of such colossal loss of lives for the struggle for freedom.'

Yet only on 8 Jan 1972 in London, on his way back to Bangladesh, the same Mujib had claimed that, "one million people had been killed in Bangladesh."

It was reported that on arrival in Dhaka on 10 Jan 1972 the lobby behind fabrication of the absolutely impossible figure promptly briefed the returning Bangladeshi leader with added "fact" of three hundred thousand women raped, who in turn immediately went on parroting it. Thus the self serving fiction of "three million killed and three hundred thousand women raped" was created.

As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure in the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants (war victims) did not exceed three hundred thousand. But according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that, only 72,000 claims were received. Of them, relations of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from Razakars, within those 72,000 applications."

Whatever be the actual figure, the "victims" whose relations were compensated might not be all victims of Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist, died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides there were also many false claims.

Rape Victims. The Bangladesh government opened a number of "Centers for Bangladesh heroines" at Dhaka and other places..

...about a hundred of them were given in marriage at various centers. How many heroines were housed at such centres? How and when such centres were closed and what happened to the inmates (has) remained a closely guarded secret up to now...

In order to kill three million the Pakistan Army would have had to kill 11,494 persons a day, non-stop from March 26 onwards. If, on the other hand, they were to kill one million people, their daily killing would come to 3,831. Seen in another way, for 60,000 Pakistan Army to kill three million and rape three hundred thousand women, each and every one of them had to kill 50 persons and rape 5 women.

Jauhri, a Bangladeshi journalist, wrote: "It is beyond me how three million people could get killed in a guerrilla war of eight month and 21 days. The raping of two hundred thousand women is also beyond my comprehension."

Pay attention to the points about Mujib wanting to reconcile and considering a lose federation with West Pakistan. All was not about people hating each others guts as much as some here would like to believe and constantly propose to drive a wedge.

Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers -DAWN - National; July 7, 2005

Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers



By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, July 6: The US State Department’s newly declassified documents about the 1971 debacle show that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman wanted to have a “form of confederation” with Pakistan rather than a separate country. The documents include two telegrams dating Feb 28, 1971 and Dec 23, 1971 “based on the sentiments of Sheikh Mujib and the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi,” showing that Sheikh Mujib was not secessionist, as many in the then West Pakistan believed.

The telegrams, sent to the State Department by the US embassies in Pakistan and India, document key foreign policy decisions and actions of the administrations of Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford.

The telegram, entitled “Conversation with Sheikh Mujibur Rahman,” shows the path followed by the Awami League leader as he “talks of excesses by West Pakistan, states he (Mujib) is not willing to share power and does not want separation but rather a form of confederation.”

In November 1969, a year before the war began, a US diplomat sent this report to Washington: “… East Pakistan, one also senses a growing undercurrent that beyond some intangible point the West Pakistan landlord-civil service-military elite might prefer to see the country split rather than submit to Bengali ascendancy.”

One telegram quotes Indira Gandhi as saying that President Nixon has “misunderstanding about India’s case” and that “there is fantastic nonsense being talked about in the US about our having received promises from the Soviet Union about the Soviet intervention against the seventh fleet and against China.”

The documents released on June 28 provide full coverage of the US policy towards India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the newly created state of Bangladesh from January 1969 to December 1972.

Documents from March to December 1971 include intelligence assessments, key messages from the US embassies in Islamabad and New Delhi and the Consulate General in Dhaka, responses to National Security Study memoranda and full transcripts of the presidential tape recordings that are summarized and excerpted in editorial notes in volume XI.

The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.

During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.

They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.

Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.

Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.

Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.

Prof Bose, a Bengali herself and belonging to the family of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, emphasized the need for conducting independent studies of the 1971 conflict to bring out the facts.

She also spoke about the violence generated by all sides. “The civil war of 1971 was fought between those who believed they were fighting for a united Pakistan and those who believed their chance for justice and progress lay in an independent Bangladesh. Both were legitimate political positions. All parties in this conflict embraced violence as a means to the end, all committed acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity. These attributes make the 1971 conflict particularly suitable for efforts towards reconciliation, rather than recrimination,” says Prof Bose.

To know if the world believes that the army ‘operations’ qualified as genocide, you will have to read up on some international writers. You might be surprised.

I have seen and read quite a bit from these international writers. They are no different than the ones who were constantly barking and churning out books after books about how great a threat Saddam Hussain was to the world with his nuclear weapons on the basis of queues they got from a government propaganda machinery. In 1971, the Indians did the same thing very successfully running the propaganda war around how millions of East Pakistanis had been killed and how many hundreds and thousands of women had been raped by the Pakistani troops when the logic of it just does not make sense (see Chowdhry's points about the idiocy of these numbers).

It would be good for all to understand that it was never a desire or the goal of the West Pakistani side to kill East Pakistanis for being East Pakistanis. International writers are outside observers whose comments should be considered while keeping in mind their distant proximity to the conflict and also the fact that they do not understand what us West Pakistanis were thinking. The military action was indeed heavy handed against some civilians and East Pakistani intellectuals and students, yet this in no way was an indication that West Pakistan was out to crush East Pakistani nation.

How different is it? Well for starter, millions of Kashmiri refugees are not jumping the borders to escape ‘tyrannies’ of IA. In fact, the minority community has escaped Kashmir vale to escape the ‘freedom fighters’. For another, their political leaders are not hounded down, thrown to jail and then killed. They can hold political rallies and remonstrations or even canvass against GoI, as long as they do it peacefully.

You must be living in your little world if you think that Kashmiri leaders have not been hunted down. Go back to 87 and start looking at how many leaders have been killed and how many have been detained without due process. In terms of Kashmiri refugees not jumping the border, that is hardly an excuse out of this "genocide" of the Kashmiris by India simply because they would be shot trying to go across the LoC. You do not even give them a chance to leave.

As far as holding political rallies, lets get real here. Every other month people are shot dead in demonstrations. Put under indefinite curfew and what not. And this has been going on since 1987.

And just so you know, the ‘political structure’, that you speak of, as well as civil institutions, was always there, albeit in a weakened form. These have only become stronger in the last decade and a half. India didn’t need to implement a ‘military solution’ to put that ‘political structure’ in place. In fact India, unlike Pakistan, had never sought a ‘military solution’ to Kashmir.

Then I must be crazy wondering why 3 Indian Army Corps are based in IoK. It is typical Indian delusion to deny that a military solution has been implemented to keep the Kashmiris in line. The brunt of excesses in the beginning from 1987 were committed by the IA, unfamiliar with how to deal with the situation. When the public opinion and foreign opinion came down hard, then the paramilitaries (RR) were given the charge to execute on the military solution of sorting out the Kashmiris with IA on the back-end. Those who have watched the IA and RR actions and operations know full well that it was a military campaign as any other to put down an insurgency (like the one Pakistan undertook in East Pakistan).


On a side note, not connected to this debate, you seem to approve of military operations until the state is comfortable with the situation. So why fuss about IA in Kashmir. After all you would have done the same in BD, only if you had the opportunity. For that matter, why fuss about US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't approve of it. We are discussing history here and specifically what the situation was on the ground prior to the invasion of EP by India. If there is any duplicity then its on your side since you have no qualms about complaining about the wrongs of the Pakistani side, while you hide your own atrocities against Kashmiris with less than factual points.
You really really really need to do some serious reading, only this time, the memoirs of your generals.

Today BDs and Pakistanis do things on their own terms, as citizens of two sovereign nations, independent of each other. Taking this relationship as a scale to measure how the Bengalis of East Pakistan would have trusted West Pakistanis, after the brutal suppression of their demands, is, quiet frankly juvenile.

I am not one to deny that I should always be reading more, but I think I have spent quite a bit of time reading up on this (even had an opportunity to visit the Library of congress once to dig up some of their excellent archives on this topic and having looked at tons of microfiche content from newspapers of the time) aside from printed books.

However what you recommend would go for all including yourself. Do not be so convinced of your side of the story. Realize that time has chipped away at quite a bit of the factual evidence. Malice and hate has driven the facts to the periphery and now there is a ton of hyperbole about this situation that you have to sift through.

Secondly, why are you bringing your moral judgments here and then claiming my stance is immature? Think a little about the title of the topic and my very first post here. The idea was not to talk about the morality of it, as war is never moral. It was just to discuss the situation on the ground (specifically prior to the Indian invasion of East Pakistan). Lets leave the emotions for the other 50 or so threads that have fallen victim to this exact same back and forth.
Besides, you seem to have missed the more vital question. Would the Pakistanis have ever trusted the Bengalis?

Not sure why we would not? Something that you may not be able to understand is that Pakistanis have no issues with Bangladeshis. The bone of contention is with regards to a political disagreement 40 years ago which was mistakenly tackled by force. It certainly is not at a personal level.

The problem with most Pakistanis is their tendency to oversimplify things. The ‘differences of policies’ became personal issues after 25/26 March, 1971 and continue to be so till date.

The problem rests with you my friend. Its in some bizarre way in your interest to keep on bringing this up to constantly remind BDs that they need to keep this hate alive for Pakistan. Most of those who were involved (on the three sides) in this mess are dead, or of no consequence any longer. BDs have a country of their own and are doing quite alright last I checked. Lets leave this affair here since the topic has been derailed significantly and I know for a fact that no matter what I write, there is no settling this affair.
 
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@blain - wrong to equate East Pakistan with Kashmir.
Reasons -
1. IA never killed, maimed and raped to the extent Pak did in East Pakistan and this is a fact - take it or leave it. The level of atrocities is not even close.

2. There was no religious connotation in security forces' action in the early 90s. We are a secular nation. At no point were stupid slogans to kill the Muslims issued. It was taken as a pure law and order problem. People were sensitised that if they did not help the terrorists they were safe.
Compare this to Pak army in EP - All Hindus were terror sympathisers according to them. All intellectuals were jailed or murdered. Bengalis were humiliated by the West Pakistan military.

3. Indian security forces have more boots on the ground. Hence they hold more ground than the Pak forces in EP. Maybe if you had more forces you could have denied insurgents the spaces in the countryside. With it's massive deployment India prevents insurgents from taking over any towns or villages in the countryside.

4. There was no mass refugee situation in Kashmir ever. Why ? Because India never drove people out.

5. Militants sent across by Pak were not successful in attacking Indian security forces and causing them grevious losses.
 
@blain - wrong to equate East Pakistan with Kashmir.
Reasons -
1. IA never killed, maimed and raped to the extent Pak did in East Pakistan and this is a fact - take it or leave it. The level of atrocities is not even close.

An extremely conservative figure on numbers killed in Kashmir is 70,000. Charges of rape are abundant but for obvious reasons you are oblivious to them. I have posted references to EP dead being debated around 30,000 all the way up to 300,000. Someone has to prove to me this millions dead myth which most here are unwilling to do aside from quoting excerpts from Westerners who were at the periphery. Simple logic defies the millions number because of the absurdity of the scale of killing this would come out to.

On the other hand in Kashmir, IA and RR are responsible for a lot of bloodshed as well and if experts on East Pakistan war can entertain a number of dead around 30,000, then the 70,000 dead in Kashmir are very much comparable. Also the difference between IoK and EP was that in EP, GoP allowed foreign press till the very end to report from and then eventually banned them. IA has NEVER let foreign observers and reporters in to gauge the excesses. There is nothing for me to take from you.

Even if you agree with the 70,000 number, that is a huge number of people to die since all the Indians are reminding me about the scale and the immorality of killing.


2. There was no religious connotation in security forces' action in the early 90s. We are a secular nation. At no point were stupid slogans to kill the Muslims issued. It was taken as a pure law and order problem. People were sensitised that if they did not help the terrorists they were safe.
Compare this to Pak army in EP - All Hindus were terror sympathisers according to them. All intellectuals were jailed or murdered. Bengalis were humiliated by the West Pakistan military.

And the East Pakistan insurgency and the war were a religious one? Straighten your thoughts out before expressing them.
3. Indian security forces have more boots on the ground. Hence they hold more ground than the Pak forces in EP. Maybe if you had more forces you could have denied insurgents the spaces in the countryside. With it's massive deployment India prevents insurgents from taking over any towns or villages in the countryside.

Yes this is the exact military solution I am talking about. Overwhelm the Kashmiris by numbers and force and you have your nice, quiet IoK (in reality not). Militarily and from a CI standpoint, it makes good sense. Pakistan was limited but as I have maintained, prior to the Indian invasion, the CI was yielding situations that were not too challenging for the West Pakistani troops to handle.

4. There was no mass refugee situation in Kashmir ever. Why ? Because India never drove people out.

Have you ever been to the LoC? People from the Indian side cannot cross over. They will be shot trying to do that. Indian forces deployed along the IB and LoC would never allow that because it would seriously undermine Indian goals in Kashmir. The LoC is one of the most heavily militarized regions in the world. IA has it 26th Corps which in terms of divisions and brigades attached is the largest Corps in the world. This is besides two other Corps stationed inside of IoK. Kashmiris in IoK cannot just pick their bags and leave IoK. This is a fact that no amount of glossing can cover.


5. Militants sent across by Pak were not successful in attacking Indian security forces and causing them grevious losses.
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Not sure what this has anything to do with the discussion on hand? Similarly, during 1971, the EP insurgents were not capable of any significant degradation of the Pakistani military capability in EP prior to the war. So not sure what your point is.
 
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blain2 - the mukti bahani militants were very successful in disrupting Pak comms (I have read a lot about this)
blain2 -
I have been to the LoC - in fact at the BhimberGali brigade HQ area (where I stayed for a couple of days) in Rajauri district near Mendhar town ( a supposed hot bed of militancy). Saw the LoC fence and the Pak army installations and Pak mosques across the border too! I drove my car all the way there and saw how people are living peacefully along the LoC. They are even involved in helping build army infrastructure. Their children are taught by the Army and the Army also provides them free health care.
Villagers get the latest DishTV and TataSKY cable connections even in remote areas. They are very happy with the current state of affairs.

Have you been to Kashmir on the Indian side ? If not I would like to host you one day ! Just tell me if you are coming to India and we can drive from Delhi to Srinagar or even Poonch or Rajauri.

About foreign media - there is no restriction on foreign media in Kashmir. Atrocities by Indian forces were widely reported in the foreign press.

Militants crossed over quite regularly during the early 90s - both ways - you must know that - so why not refugees!

70,000 - that include militants, civilians and security forces over a 20 year period! East Pak's figure is for 4-5 months!

Taking my Kashmir visit option instead! It will be fun - it's an amazing place.
 
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