The Armor Division of Pakistan Army

[PanzerKiel]

Unless 441 is IAB, all good.



Someone still has those BS-equipped jeeps.

Regarding HAT, isn't 45 Azad Kashmir one of them?



220 AK-1 are contracted, but HIT is yet to cross the halfway mark.

These armd/mech bdes, they have popped up from north to south. I was aware of 7, but Panzer says there are more.

Its 331, not 441.

BS jeeps are almost gone, being re-equipped with M113.

45 AK is HAT, but primarily a Div /Corps asset. Ofcourse can be given to a brigade for some specific task. Happens always.

 

[Gryphon]

Its 331, not 441.

Seems they got it wrong.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2276641725907644

BS jeeps are almost gone, being re-equipped with M113.

Got it! Jeeps go but the unit stays.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Seems they got it wrong.

Ofcourse, i havent heard of any 441 inf or armr bde in PA, besides i have been in 25 Mech.

Got it! Jeeps go but the unit stays.

Ofcourse, its just re-equipping. Unit(s) are not being disbanded.

 

[Gryphon]

Ofcourse, i havent heard of any 441 inf or armr bde in PA, besides i have been in 25 Mech.

There used to be a 31 (I) Inf Bde which shifted out of Sindh some years back. BTW, 441 Infantry Brigade has been reported several times, a simple google search will do.

 

[PanzerKiel]

There used to be a 31 (I) Inf Bde which shifted out of Sindh some years back. BTW, 441 Infantry Brigade has been reported several times, a simple google search will do.

That 31 is no more Inf brigade, being part of 25 Mech.

441 brigade is not a normal Inf brigade, it's part of SSD, CPEC.

 

[Gryphon]

That 31 is no more Inf brigade, being part of 25 Mech.

441 brigade is not a normal Inf brigade, it's part of SSD, CPEC.

31 (I) IB has shifted out of Sindh. 330 is (I) MB now.

Brig of 441 wears 25 Mech insignia, SSD?

 

[PanzerKiel]

31 (I) IB has shifted out of Sindh. 330 is (I) MB now.

Brig of 441 wears 25 Mech insignia, SSD?

31 is IAB of 25 Mech. 441 is on CPEC duties, not for Ops.

31 (I) IB has shifted out of Sindh. 330 is (I) MB now.

Brig of 441 wears 25 Mech insignia, SSD?

Brigade can move far away from HQ without losing the op affiliation. Like 12 IABG of 25 Mech is not in Karachi.

31 (I) IB has shifted out of Sindh. 330 is (I) MB now.

Brig of 441 wears 25 Mech insignia, SSD?

2 IABG, 12 IABG, 30 IABG and 330 Mech Bde are INTEGRAL elements of 25 Mech Div.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

BS jeeps are almost gone, being re-equipped with M113.

We have built more M113?

 

[PanzerKiel]

We have built more M113?

We got lots of VCC1s.

Brig of 441 wears 25 Mech insignia, SSD?

441 is op part of 44 Div, but since it is placed in Karach , therefore it's placed under command 25 Mech during peace.

 

[Armchair]

PA and IA have plenty

More infantry, more tanks, more artillery... bigger army. That's how WWI and WWII was won.

Gulf War has somehow messed up military thinking, mainly because people don't realize that the US and allies were technologically, strategically and tactically a million steps head of Saddam and his commercial grade steel T-72s, which he used as static sentries.

The lesson from 1971 war says the same, after Gen Musa's reforms, PA thought that having fewer soldiers would work. Result - even other than losing the East, a lot of land was taken by the Indians on the West.

This thinking that somehow marginally uparming a force can allow it to win against a larger foe is wrong. It has caused disasters after disasters.

@PanzerKiel the failings in Kargil are real. Check out Kaiser Tufail on that:

he flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable, and could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated, and not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom, and anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html


These disasters will continue unless serious rethinking takes place.

Between, what use is an army of half a million when its military leaders cannot dream of penetrating more than 10 km from their borders? There is no purpose to it. Might as well not start a war or if that is the case, because the cost of war is far too great. One does not get into a war to penetrate the enemy at max 10 km.

The juice has got to be worth the squeeze.
Go big or go home.

 

[PanzerKiel]

More infantry, more tanks, more artillery... bigger army. That's how WWI and WWII was won.

Gulf War has somehow messed up military thinking, mainly because people don't realize that the US and allies were technologically, strategically and tactically a million steps head of Saddam and his commercial grade steel T-72s, which he used as static sentries.

The lesson from 1971 war says the same, after Gen Musa's reforms, PA thought that having fewer soldiers would work. Result - even other than losing the East, a lot of land was taken by the Indians on the West.

This thinking that somehow marginally uparming a force can allow it to win against a larger foe is wrong. It has caused disasters after disasters.

@PanzerKiel the failings in Kargil are real. Check out Kaiser Tufail on that:



http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html


These disasters will continue unless serious rethinking takes place.

Between, what use is an army of half a million when its military leaders cannot dream of penetrating more than 10 km from their borders? There is no purpose to it. Might as well not start a war or if that is the case, because the cost of war is far too great. One does not get into a war to penetrate the enemy at max 10 km.

The juice has got to be worth the squeeze.
Go big or go home.

I personally dont blame the planners of the Kargil, or their planning or their logistics. In a nutshell, it was an inverse of Op Meghdoot we wanted to do. If it would have been Siachen like terrain, this op would have been a success since IA would not have been able to respond in the manner they actually did.

I dont think dissent in a military organization should be there. The strength, instead, be derived from the military institutions who train you leaders at all levels. If your leader is good in all aspects, of course he will take the right decisions and do the right thing. Therefore, dissent will not be required. Remember, imagine you facing bullets, your leader asks you to lead your men into the bullets, a notion or iota of dissent there and then may prove disastrous for you, your men and the whole op. Its actually the trust in our senior leadership that makes go into all of this.

Doest mean that there no devil's advocates in the military. There are, we have seen them, its always a personal choice whether you want to dissent or not. There are always people around who speak their mind. They are there.

But then you must ought to believe that our Half a million army is not a normal army. Its not an army which is facing a limited number of conventional threats. Almost 5-6000 km of border and coastline, threat from all sides less north, internal threat spread over an area of 7,96,096 sq km, disaster relief, operations in aid of civil power, all hybrid threats against major powers and int agencies of the world.......list goes on.

Tell me, in your opinion, any army or country in the world, having a strength of half a million, been able to deal with ALL these threats simultaneously? Its a give-up situation for many.

Btw, in today's world, let alone 10 km, would the world community let you cross the border and capture even 1 km of land across the frontier, when you and the other guy have nukes?

The juice has got to be worth the squeeze.

However, at the moment, we are doing our best in squeezing the juice out of our enemies.

Go big or go home.

I do miss my home, been quiet a while having gone on vacations. However, I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Thank You.

More infantry, more tanks, more artillery... bigger army. That's how WWI and WWII was won.

Gulf War has somehow messed up military thinking, mainly because people don't realize that the US and allies were technologically, strategically and tactically a million steps head of Saddam and his commercial grade steel T-72s, which he used as static sentries.

The lesson from 1971 war says the same, after Gen Musa's reforms, PA thought that having fewer soldiers would work. Result - even other than losing the East, a lot of land was taken by the Indians on the West.

This thinking that somehow marginally uparming a force can allow it to win against a larger foe is wrong. It has caused disasters after disasters.

@PanzerKiel the failings in Kargil are real. Check out Kaiser Tufail on that:



http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html


These disasters will continue unless serious rethinking takes place.

Between, what use is an army of half a million when its military leaders cannot dream of penetrating more than 10 km from their borders? There is no purpose to it. Might as well not start a war or if that is the case, because the cost of war is far too great. One does not get into a war to penetrate the enemy at max 10 km.

The juice has got to be worth the squeeze.
Go big or go home.

But then, lets stick to the thread. Lets not bring Kargil or military leadership or our capabilities here. They are entirely different topics.

Between, what use is an army of half a million when its military leaders cannot dream of penetrating more than 10 km from their borders? There is no purpose to it. Might as well not start a war or if that is the case, because the cost of war is far too great. One does not get into a war to penetrate the enemy at max 10 km.

As far as this remark of yours in concerned, i'll just quote Col Haroon (SSG), shaheed, what he said once (i've got the vid clip as well).
He says," .....is kaam ko appreciate karne k liye us banday ki nazar ka hona zaroori hai jo khud yeh kaam karta ho...." meaning: only that person can appreciate a work who himself has done this job.

Col Haroon

 

[Armchair]

I personally dont blame the planners of the Kargil, or their planning or their logistics. In a nutshell, it was an inverse of Op Meghdoot we wanted to do. If it would have been Siachen like terrain, this op would have been a success since IA would not have been able to respond in the manner they actually did.

I dont think dissent in a military organization should be there. The strength, instead, be derived from the military institutions who train you leaders at all levels. If your leader is good in all aspects, of course he will take the right decisions and do the right thing. Therefore, dissent will not be required. Remember, imagine you facing bullets, your leader asks you to lead your men into the bullets, a notion or iota of dissent there and then may prove disastrous for you, your men and the whole op. Its actually the trust in our senior leadership that makes go into all of this.

Doest mean that there no devil's advocates in the military. There are, we have seen them, its always a personal choice whether you want to dissent or not. There are always people around who speak their mind. They are there.

But then you must ought to believe that our Half a million army is not a normal army. Its not an army which is facing a limited number of conventional threats. Almost 5-6000 km of border and coastline, threat from all sides less north, internal threat spread over an area of 7,96,096 sq km, disaster relief, operations in aid of civil power, all hybrid threats against major powers and int agencies of the world.......list goes on.

Tell me, in your opinion, any army or country in the world, having a strength of half a million, been able to deal with ALL these threats simultaneously? Its a give-up situation for many.

Btw, in today's world, let alone 10 km, would the world community let you cross the border and capture even 1 km of land across the frontier, when you and the other guy have nukes?



However, at the moment, we are doing our best in squeezing the juice out of our enemies.



I do miss my home, been quiet a while having gone on vacations. However, I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Thank You.



But then, lets stick to the thread. Lets not bring Kargil or military leadership or our capabilities here. They are entirely different topics.



As far as this remark of yours in concerned, i'll just quote Col Haroon (SSG), shaheed, what he said once (i've got the vid clip as well).
He says," .....is kaam ko appreciate karne k liye us banday ki nazar ka hona zaroori hai jo khud yeh kaam karta ho...." meaning: only that person can appreciate a work who himself has done this job.

Col Haroon

: ) I didn't ask you to go home, its an American idiom, it means one has to do more (harder, better) to win or its not worth doing it. I am sorry for upsetting you.

I personally dont blame the planners of the Kargil, or their planning or their logistics. In a nutshell, it was an inverse of Op Meghdoot we wanted to do. If it would have been Siachen like terrain, this op would have been a success since IA would not have been able to respond in the manner they actually did.

I dont think dissent in a military organization should be there. The strength, instead, be derived from the military institutions who train you leaders at all levels. If your leader is good in all aspects, of course he will take the right decisions and do the right thing. Therefore, dissent will not be required. Remember, imagine you facing bullets, your leader asks you to lead your men into the bullets, a notion or iota of dissent there and then may prove disastrous for you, your men and the whole op. Its actually the trust in our senior leadership that makes go into all of this.

Now, as you noted, I've never been in the military and I don't really know. What I do know is that Kaiser Tufail has been in the military and his assessment of the blunders that "any ordinary person could see" are very different from that of the PA. He is pointing out that this is a systemic problem and the cause of repeated blunders and failures on the part of PA. Who should the public and the world listen to?

Doest mean that there no devil's advocates in the military. There are, we have seen them, its always a personal choice whether you want to dissent or not. There are always people around who speak their mind. They are there.

Obviously there are not enough devil's advocates in the military. I haven't been in the military but I did spend a year in Army Burn Hall Abbotabad. Even at that young age, I realized they were trying to turn me into a bot so I didn't go back. Another hammered in square block was never going help the world. Again, Kaiser Tufail, another officer of the military is pointing to this. Surely he has been in combat situations and understand the military in Pakistan?

But then you must ought to believe that our Half a million army is not a normal army. Its not an army which is facing a limited number of conventional threats. Almost 5-6000 km of border and coastline, threat from all sides less north, internal threat spread over an area of 7,96,096 sq km, disaster relief, operations in aid of civil power, all hybrid threats against major powers and int agencies of the world.......list goes on.

We agree here. This is too big a pie. Thus the argument, PA needs to be bigger. More men, more tanks, more... You are saying pull. I am saying "more pull".

Tell me, in your opinion, any army or country in the world, having a strength of half a million, been able to deal with ALL these threats simultaneously? Its a give-up situation for many.

Surely, there is no greater army in the world than the Pakistan Army. However, can the job be better done? Is the PA capable of fulfilling Jinnah's last wish? If not - "More pull!"

Btw, in today's world, let alone 10 km, would the world community let you cross the border and capture even 1 km of land across the frontier, when you and the other guy have nukes?

As far as this remark of yours in concerned, i'll just quote Col Haroon (SSG), shaheed, what he said once (i've got the vid clip as well).
He says," .....is kaam ko appreciate karne k liye us banday ki nazar ka hona zaroori hai jo khud yeh kaam karta ho...." meaning: only that person can appreciate a work who himself has done this job.

This massive problem started when Mr. Musharaf decided he knows better than the civies. It created this war that killed so many. If we all know our own area of expertise best, surely you must believe that the head of the country, PM Imran Khan knows more about politics than some senior in the military who thinks "India will just implode"?

Did Nazi Germany just implode? Did Mao's China just implode? It's childish but what is dangerous is that the PA is refusing to listen to the people whose job it is to do politics. Instead, it is basing itself on its own immature understanding of politics and international politics.

PM Imran Khan is telling the entire world and Pakistan that this threat will not just "implode" just like an overgrown pimple on an adolescent's face. This problem will keep growing. Your own COAS has been quoted saying that 70% of the budget goes to salaries and related expenses.

If your assessments were just fine, it would not come to my desk that IK wants research on a certain country's conscription policies. Which is exactly what happened when I was involved with PTI.

Precisely because of the massive threats that PA is facing, precisely because the politicians ("kaam ko appreciate karne k liye us banday ki nazar ka hona zaroori hai jo khud yeh kaam karta ho....") understand politics better than the military, there is a serious need to grow the army.

Grow the armored divisions. Grow the military. Larger, bigger better. More pull. But PA is, like it has done in every single war, is refusing to listen to reason.

People are shouting "there is a bull in the china shop!" and they are busy wiping the plates clean.

Sorry we are going off track so I'll end here.

 

[Inception-06]

Seems they got it wrong.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2276641725907644

Got it! Jeeps go but the unit stays.

Why all jeeps did go?

Is there a standard concept of jeeps with 12.7mm HMG and LMG or its just some random vehicles are equipped with HMG, are the ANZA 1 and Stingers still in service? And how are they deployed with jeeps or M-113? Is the MP-5 still active in service with frontline troops and part of doctrine?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Why all jeeps did go?

Is the there a standard concept of jeeps with 12.7mm HMG and LMG or its just some random vehicles are equipped with HMG, are the ANZA 1 and Stingers still in service? And how are they deployed with jeeps or M-113? Is the MP-5 still active in service with frontline troops and part of doctrine?

Defender jeeps are already my used by everyone. They aren't going anywhere.

Generally, 12.7 HMG is not mounted on jeeps. Takes to much space, limited traverse.

Anza, FM 16 etc are there. They are carried in jeeps and M113.

Mp5 is still authorized, but slowly being replaced by Type 56-ii.

 

[Signalian]

A good read :

Panzertruppen 2_ The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force ¥ 1943-1945_Formations ¥ Organizations ¥ Tactics Combat Reports ¥ Unit Strengths ¥ Statistics

Somehow cannot attach the pdf version of book.