Then 90 percent of indians arent indians
Tensions in Indian city of Ayodhya ahead of Babri Mosque verdict
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Hindustani78
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Prophet means Nabi and Messengers means Rasoolun.
The Border between the Hindu/Indian Tribes and Arab Tribes were draw already before the coming of the Invaders and Rasool Allah Muhammed sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam did pointed out towards Ajam as part of Hind.
That is on the Union of India's Establishment to decide, You are not Hindu/Indians.
PakSword
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Your comment has nothing to do with your earlier comment.
Hindustani78
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Surah Al - Fil "Chapter of the Elephant " This surah Alludes to the Invaders Campaign against Makkah in the year 560 Isvi to erected a Great Cathedral in Kaaba. But the Invaders Troops were defeated by an Extremely Huge Flock of martin swallow birds (Ababil) Azaab ke Faristhe that dropped tiny stones onto them and turned them to ashes.
I know what i am talking.
newb3e
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idol worship is the oldest form of Shirk it started with making idols of religious saint then asking them for help and guidance thats what hinduism is all about
ps: no disrespect to hinduism just my opinion.
dani92
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Yeah so you came and turn them to mosques!!
Than why do you complain about what Russia did or what the Balkan countries did to Muslims or what Israel did to Palestinians by your logic they won so they can do what ever they want
You doesn’t make any sense because most of the mosques that turned into churches were churches to begin with.
The difference between Constantinople and Iberian peninsula that the first one was a Christian city while Spain was a Christian land that invaded by Muslims than the Christian retook that land and many mosques in Spain were churches to begin with so the Spanish didn’t turn any mosques to church they just retook what was theirs unlike hagia Sofia and other churches in Anatolia which never belonged to Muslims
Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8
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I am reading Sir...I will just shoot a quick reply before making a 1,000 word post
All Monotheism is not Abrahamism (Judaism/Christianity/Islam)
Akhenatism and some may argue even Zoroastrianism predate Judaism and they definitely have developed independently of Judaism. One must note here that the creation story in Genesis has been heavily borrowed from earlier Babylonian cosmological theories that date to 3000 BCE. But the dominance of monotheism in Judaism is a very late feature, certainly post-Bronze Age Collapse (World War Zero) and may have not fully formed until the Babylonian captivity
To say all Shamanism/Animism/Polytheism/Henotheism/Pantheism/Panentheism is Hinduism is utter balderdash.
That is like saying all sports that involve a ball is football (Association football/soccer). Eventhough many of those sports are tennis,hockey,rugby,baseball,cricket,basketball,American football,Australian rules football,table tennis,volleyball etc.
And equally ridiculous it is to say that all Monotheistic religions are the same, that is akin to saying all non-ball sports are the same. That somehow boxing,mma,athletics,weightlifting,surfing,wrestling,swimming,horse racing,skiing are part of the same root
Now is there a competition between different professional sports? of course there is, there is a competition for attendance,stadium construction,multi-billion dollar TV contracts,pay per view sales,digital rights and different professional sports are in direct rivalry with each other.
See how cricket wiped out football in Bangladesh,hockey in India
How American Football,esports and MMA are taking out baseball in USA
How soccer conquered Japan
How boxing lost ground to MMA in USA
How basketball wiped out table tennis and badminton in China
But to think that an alliance of non-ball sports are out to get the ball sports is utter stupidity
See closely the evolution of professional sports since 1770 AD (starting with horse racing) and you will be able to understand the evolution of religions since 1770 BC... I will add more in a latter post with much more detailed emphasis on Hinduism both pre-Buddhist and post-Buddhist. I am perhaps more of an authority on Hinduism than others in this forum given that I have taken the vow of 12 year unbroken celibacy. (no pr0n, no self pleasure, no fooling around physically with the oppsite sex in this duration)
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In turkey we have more mosques built than converted. Its a popular myth that only the Ottomans and the Seljuks converted and built nothing.
Let me guess the Sultanahmet, Selimiye, Suleymaniye are all converted ones.
In Spain the Muslims built many mosques most either got converted or destroyed. But keep playing that myth of Muslims not building but only converting and converting.
Hamza913
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I'm not just talking about post 1947, I'm talking about all of history post Babur's invasion.
It didn't, it still controls several peaks in the area.
Because it's unable to.
dani92
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I didn’t deny that many mosques were built from Spain to India but the thing no one can’t deny that many mosques were religious buildings of many religions I also explained the differences that Spain was already Christian than Muslims invaded it and the Christian retook what theirs
Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8
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@Mangus Ortus Novem
Hinduism would be the syncretic result of Vedic Brahmanism with other traditions,tribal rituals,cults,totemisms that were or still are concurrently present in the subcontinent. The proliferation of black magic and various superstitions in Hinduism is precisely because of Hinduism's untiring effort to incorporate every obscure tribal as well as non-tribal traditions without ever feeling the need to shed off anything that is superflous,irrelvant or downright unscrutable. You can see this grandeur of unnecessary complexity in Vedic astrology and Puranic cosmologies as well. Where pre-Buddhist Vedic cosmoligies tend to be simple enough, the same thing become heavily ornamented unwieldy contraptions by 1000 AD.
In Ancient times there were two distinct parallel streams of spirituality in the subcontinent. One would be the fire rituals and sacrifices performed by the Brahmins. And another would be the ascetic introspection and meditation poses of the hermits. The latter may have been a hold over from the IVC given that the seals confirm them. The hermits were first mentioned in the Kesin Sutta of the Rig Veda, by all accounts they were a distinct non-Vedic sect. Sometime between Brihadarayanka Upanishad (700 BC) and Katha Upanishad (around 400 BC), these two streams merged to form Hinduism..Massive Temple construction and worship of specific Gods (outside of Fire sacrifice) would come online 1000 years later.
Out-Of-India Theory was still a viable theory even 5 years back. But rapid modern advancements in genetics have rendered the OIT to the dustbin of history. The papers that came out in the last couple of years along with the Rakhigarhi skeleton studies have left no doubt in the minds of those who are intellectually honest.Reich Labs have done the best work in this regard, led by the once-in-a-generation Jewish genius David Reich.
But and this is a big but, promotion of Out-of-India theory is seen as politically expedient by a large section of RSS who are atheist and educated in the sciences. For them it is all about cultural nationalism and misappropriation of Hindu heritage by White Nationalists and white Indo-European heritage seekers is seen as an existential threat by them. Their goal is to shut down any research into Ancient India that might link Indians back to Indo-Europeans. Such endeavours have previously been successful in Egypt when in the 70s, research into chariot riding Hyksos invaders of Ancient Egypt were suspended because of the apprehension that Hyksos might be Indo Europeans. Any further linking of Hyksos with Indo-European migrations might have fanned the flames of Neo-Nazism in Europe which was incipient then. So that is the end game of RSS, saying that scientific certification of Aryan Invasion Theory would just embolden the Alt-Right in the West and that would be a net loss for all humanity.
Now regarding the proliferation of pseudo-history for even events pertaining to the Historical Age (post-Buddha) for which we have extensive records, I am truly at a loss. The preoccupation with pseudo-history and pseudoscience among seemingly intelligent section of Indians is something that totally flummoxed and saddened even Aldous Huxley. So many millions of hours lost from productive brains in order to build castles in the air.
But that in the end might throw a light on the human psyche itself. Those who claim that majority of the conversions happened due to forceful proselytization or those who claim that majority of the conversions happened due to peaceful preaching by Sufi saints have very poor understanding of ancient and medieval minds. There is no denying that Turks invaded the Northern subcontinent under the pretext of carrying the torch of Islam. The loss of Sindh was never a big issue for the Indian psyche as Sindh became a periphery of the Indian subcontinent the moment the Thar desert formed..Sindh in a way dissappeared from the Indian mind long before that. But what happened in Punjab and lowlands of NWFP during the first decades of 11th century AD,still reverberate through the Hindu soul ...The Central Asian Horselords were at the zenith of their power and the native Punjabi resistance of the Hindu Shahi dynasty wilted at the presence of Ghazni..It would take till the 1700s before native Punjabis could win against Central Asians in cavalry warfare. There is a reason that North India have few large Hindu temples compared to South India, but I digress....
Most conversions in ancient and medieval age happened because the adherents felt not only their Kings have lost to their enemy but also their God/s have lost to the God/s of the enemy in Heaven or the Spirit realm. Not only that ,but even their God/s might have fallen in battle in Heaven and Ragnarok is truly upon us. This is the reason why they were not blessed with victory in battle. When they perceived the situation as such, there was really no other option but to convert in order to gain the favours of the new God. Some thought that all was not lost and the situation was still salvageable. Those most probably remained Hindus. You can see the same situation happening this day right in the middle of the Islamic world. Seeing countless defeats of the Islamic powers at the hands of the technological West, many intelligent Muslims these days identify themselves as atheists,agnostics,humanists or simply Deists (in order to assuage Muslim feelings)
So reconversion of Muslims into the Hindu fold is really out of the question unless Hindus start winning Nobel,Fields Medal,Turing Award,Chess World Championship,Boxing medals,wrestling medals, Boxing belts,UFC Belts at a rate that is ten times more than the present one. In the end all spirituality and all religions have their origin in the Human Spirit. If either Hindus or Muslims want to crack the code of Greatness then they have to find the answer in the Human Spirit rather than creations of the Human Spirit. A small example. The Chechens have converted and reconverted back and forth between three religions countless times (Orthodox Christianity,Chechen Paganism,Sunni Islam) for political expediency and in order to fight and defeat Empires much bigger than them -->from the Mongols to the Russians.. No God ever struck them down just because they were changing religions.Because in the end the Chechens believed in their own spirit and their right to survive as a people. You can see this even in the individual life of Skandebeg. He went back and forth between various religions but in the end defeated much arger supremely equipped Ottoman armies both in pitched battles and guerilla warfare for 30 odd years...sometines he defeated armies 20 times bigger than his own. Did any God strike him down because he apparently was so frivolous with his religious loyalty? Nope, Nada...In the end he had a firm belief in his own will,capability and genius and he has been immortalized as the Shield of Europe
That being said there may be a demographic and geopolitical correction that is long overdue. The battle of Panipat,1761 where Indian Muslim kings sided with the Afghan invader,Ahmed Shah Abdali, against a native Hindu force blew away all pretensions of Hindu-Muslim cordiality in the subcontinent....Most probably the history of the subcontinent would have looked like that of the Balkans and Turkey..The massive population exchange that took place..The various wars of Indepedence ....The British take over of the subcontinent only paused the natural course of history and restarted the whole game when both sides were armed to the teeth..Horror of horrors...Much better would have been had the the whole geopolitical correction taken place between 1771 (Maratha resurrection) and World War 1. Would people have died? Sure but mostly in the millions...if the correction takes place in the 21st or 22nd century then the figure would run into hundreds of millions....Hindu mind has problem with the presence of Islam because the Hindu mind feels it is under existential threat and it is under siege. The Hindu is wary of the true intentions of the Muslim and feels that the moment the Muslim stops being a Muslim,the Hindu can save himself from destruction..This is the thrust of reconversion. Reconstruction of Ram Temple at the site of Babri Masjid would be seen as acceptable reconciliation for the the 4,000 odd temples that had Mosques built on it.
After Babri Masjid there have been no other mosque destruction because Hindus feel that they can let go of their other claims if only this site is left for temple construction.
Hinduism is the amalgamation of all native subcontinental spiritualities,religions,supersitions,magic,traditions,indgenous medicine that pay a ceremonial nod to the Vedas
Hinduism doesnot believe in race,ethnicity,language as much as it does in a sacred geography. "The land between the mountains and the oceans bound by the eastern sea and the western sea" is an absolutely non-negotiable axiom in Hinduism..The first mention of this sacred geography(partially) ,as far as I know, happens in the first chapter of Brihadarayanka Upanishad (ca 700 BC)...It might have happened earlier but I am unaware of them
As for me personally, I believe anybody and everybody who has a historic and inalienable claim to the subcontinent is an Indian..So the British and Abdali cannot be Indian,because if they are alienated from India they can still be Afghans and British..But Mughals by the 3rd and 4th generation were absolutely Indian..No two ways about it...Were they awful Indians? why yes...but were they Indians? Hell yeah
Anyways I personally feel that religion doesnot play any role in greatness of a man,tribe,race or nation..Spirituality does..and by Spirituality I donot mean any highfalutin metaphysics but the greatness of the human spirit. Many places in Pakistan embraced Islam well before the Turks. Then why is it that Turks achieved greatness and were the single source of Islamic pride after the decline of the Abbasids even though the Turks were Muslim for much less a time? and why is it that Turks achieved greatness even before they embraced Islam? The human spirit in all its resilience,doggedness and glory is all that matters
have a nice evening and weekend,Sir
Hinduism would be the syncretic result of Vedic Brahmanism with other traditions,tribal rituals,cults,totemisms that were or still are concurrently present in the subcontinent. The proliferation of black magic and various superstitions in Hinduism is precisely because of Hinduism's untiring effort to incorporate every obscure tribal as well as non-tribal traditions without ever feeling the need to shed off anything that is superflous,irrelvant or downright unscrutable. You can see this grandeur of unnecessary complexity in Vedic astrology and Puranic cosmologies as well. Where pre-Buddhist Vedic cosmoligies tend to be simple enough, the same thing become heavily ornamented unwieldy contraptions by 1000 AD.
In Ancient times there were two distinct parallel streams of spirituality in the subcontinent. One would be the fire rituals and sacrifices performed by the Brahmins. And another would be the ascetic introspection and meditation poses of the hermits. The latter may have been a hold over from the IVC given that the seals confirm them. The hermits were first mentioned in the Kesin Sutta of the Rig Veda, by all accounts they were a distinct non-Vedic sect. Sometime between Brihadarayanka Upanishad (700 BC) and Katha Upanishad (around 400 BC), these two streams merged to form Hinduism..Massive Temple construction and worship of specific Gods (outside of Fire sacrifice) would come online 1000 years later.
Out-Of-India Theory was still a viable theory even 5 years back. But rapid modern advancements in genetics have rendered the OIT to the dustbin of history. The papers that came out in the last couple of years along with the Rakhigarhi skeleton studies have left no doubt in the minds of those who are intellectually honest.Reich Labs have done the best work in this regard, led by the once-in-a-generation Jewish genius David Reich.
But and this is a big but, promotion of Out-of-India theory is seen as politically expedient by a large section of RSS who are atheist and educated in the sciences. For them it is all about cultural nationalism and misappropriation of Hindu heritage by White Nationalists and white Indo-European heritage seekers is seen as an existential threat by them. Their goal is to shut down any research into Ancient India that might link Indians back to Indo-Europeans. Such endeavours have previously been successful in Egypt when in the 70s, research into chariot riding Hyksos invaders of Ancient Egypt were suspended because of the apprehension that Hyksos might be Indo Europeans. Any further linking of Hyksos with Indo-European migrations might have fanned the flames of Neo-Nazism in Europe which was incipient then. So that is the end game of RSS, saying that scientific certification of Aryan Invasion Theory would just embolden the Alt-Right in the West and that would be a net loss for all humanity.
Now regarding the proliferation of pseudo-history for even events pertaining to the Historical Age (post-Buddha) for which we have extensive records, I am truly at a loss. The preoccupation with pseudo-history and pseudoscience among seemingly intelligent section of Indians is something that totally flummoxed and saddened even Aldous Huxley. So many millions of hours lost from productive brains in order to build castles in the air.
But that in the end might throw a light on the human psyche itself. Those who claim that majority of the conversions happened due to forceful proselytization or those who claim that majority of the conversions happened due to peaceful preaching by Sufi saints have very poor understanding of ancient and medieval minds. There is no denying that Turks invaded the Northern subcontinent under the pretext of carrying the torch of Islam. The loss of Sindh was never a big issue for the Indian psyche as Sindh became a periphery of the Indian subcontinent the moment the Thar desert formed..Sindh in a way dissappeared from the Indian mind long before that. But what happened in Punjab and lowlands of NWFP during the first decades of 11th century AD,still reverberate through the Hindu soul ...The Central Asian Horselords were at the zenith of their power and the native Punjabi resistance of the Hindu Shahi dynasty wilted at the presence of Ghazni..It would take till the 1700s before native Punjabis could win against Central Asians in cavalry warfare. There is a reason that North India have few large Hindu temples compared to South India, but I digress....
Most conversions in ancient and medieval age happened because the adherents felt not only their Kings have lost to their enemy but also their God/s have lost to the God/s of the enemy in Heaven or the Spirit realm. Not only that ,but even their God/s might have fallen in battle in Heaven and Ragnarok is truly upon us. This is the reason why they were not blessed with victory in battle. When they perceived the situation as such, there was really no other option but to convert in order to gain the favours of the new God. Some thought that all was not lost and the situation was still salvageable. Those most probably remained Hindus. You can see the same situation happening this day right in the middle of the Islamic world. Seeing countless defeats of the Islamic powers at the hands of the technological West, many intelligent Muslims these days identify themselves as atheists,agnostics,humanists or simply Deists (in order to assuage Muslim feelings)
So reconversion of Muslims into the Hindu fold is really out of the question unless Hindus start winning Nobel,Fields Medal,Turing Award,Chess World Championship,Boxing medals,wrestling medals, Boxing belts,UFC Belts at a rate that is ten times more than the present one. In the end all spirituality and all religions have their origin in the Human Spirit. If either Hindus or Muslims want to crack the code of Greatness then they have to find the answer in the Human Spirit rather than creations of the Human Spirit. A small example. The Chechens have converted and reconverted back and forth between three religions countless times (Orthodox Christianity,Chechen Paganism,Sunni Islam) for political expediency and in order to fight and defeat Empires much bigger than them -->from the Mongols to the Russians.. No God ever struck them down just because they were changing religions.Because in the end the Chechens believed in their own spirit and their right to survive as a people. You can see this even in the individual life of Skandebeg. He went back and forth between various religions but in the end defeated much arger supremely equipped Ottoman armies both in pitched battles and guerilla warfare for 30 odd years...sometines he defeated armies 20 times bigger than his own. Did any God strike him down because he apparently was so frivolous with his religious loyalty? Nope, Nada...In the end he had a firm belief in his own will,capability and genius and he has been immortalized as the Shield of Europe
That being said there may be a demographic and geopolitical correction that is long overdue. The battle of Panipat,1761 where Indian Muslim kings sided with the Afghan invader,Ahmed Shah Abdali, against a native Hindu force blew away all pretensions of Hindu-Muslim cordiality in the subcontinent....Most probably the history of the subcontinent would have looked like that of the Balkans and Turkey..The massive population exchange that took place..The various wars of Indepedence ....The British take over of the subcontinent only paused the natural course of history and restarted the whole game when both sides were armed to the teeth..Horror of horrors...Much better would have been had the the whole geopolitical correction taken place between 1771 (Maratha resurrection) and World War 1. Would people have died? Sure but mostly in the millions...if the correction takes place in the 21st or 22nd century then the figure would run into hundreds of millions....Hindu mind has problem with the presence of Islam because the Hindu mind feels it is under existential threat and it is under siege. The Hindu is wary of the true intentions of the Muslim and feels that the moment the Muslim stops being a Muslim,the Hindu can save himself from destruction..This is the thrust of reconversion. Reconstruction of Ram Temple at the site of Babri Masjid would be seen as acceptable reconciliation for the the 4,000 odd temples that had Mosques built on it.
After Babri Masjid there have been no other mosque destruction because Hindus feel that they can let go of their other claims if only this site is left for temple construction.
Hinduism is the amalgamation of all native subcontinental spiritualities,religions,supersitions,magic,traditions,indgenous medicine that pay a ceremonial nod to the Vedas
Hinduism doesnot believe in race,ethnicity,language as much as it does in a sacred geography. "The land between the mountains and the oceans bound by the eastern sea and the western sea" is an absolutely non-negotiable axiom in Hinduism..The first mention of this sacred geography(partially) ,as far as I know, happens in the first chapter of Brihadarayanka Upanishad (ca 700 BC)...It might have happened earlier but I am unaware of them
As for me personally, I believe anybody and everybody who has a historic and inalienable claim to the subcontinent is an Indian..So the British and Abdali cannot be Indian,because if they are alienated from India they can still be Afghans and British..But Mughals by the 3rd and 4th generation were absolutely Indian..No two ways about it...Were they awful Indians? why yes...but were they Indians? Hell yeah
Anyways I personally feel that religion doesnot play any role in greatness of a man,tribe,race or nation..Spirituality does..and by Spirituality I donot mean any highfalutin metaphysics but the greatness of the human spirit. Many places in Pakistan embraced Islam well before the Turks. Then why is it that Turks achieved greatness and were the single source of Islamic pride after the decline of the Abbasids even though the Turks were Muslim for much less a time? and why is it that Turks achieved greatness even before they embraced Islam? The human spirit in all its resilience,doggedness and glory is all that matters
have a nice evening and weekend,Sir
Hindustani78
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Hinda A.S ( Eve) is the Wife of Adom A.S (Adam), Arabic Speakers say Adom A.S where as in Urdu which is my language this comes as Adaam A.S. Hinda A.S is called as Indu in Deen e Arya.
Ancient Name of Makkah is even Haran and Madinah name of Yethrib.
Children of Adaam A.S and Hinda A.S are called Hindu and from here is the Hindu Civilisation.
Pagan Arabs you are referring to Greeks here. Shem can even be pronouced Shiam, Your language is not Arabic nor Sanskrit nor Farsi nor Dari. You Speak English and what we have to explain you.
Scholars of Deen e Arya and Deen e Islam understand each other because of the Oneness of Supreme Creator/Om/Allah.
AfrazulMandal
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Yeah so?
Yeah yeah no temple was destroyed to build mosques on them. Boy! talk about having head in the sand.
What were your forefathers doing? Laughing and dancing instead of saving your temple?
AfrazulMandal
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Call me anything BUT a liar. I don't care about Hindus and their petty sensibilities. Allah SWT has cursed them.
On the other hand...
Get a visa and come to India and take samples from the temples in any Hindu pilgrimage city (Varanasi/Mathura) and get them carbon dated. Heck do that in Pakistan for instance. Most will be built during the cruel Sikh rule, Maratha/local rule perhaps on the same area where the original temple once stood. All temples in Hindu holy cities in India (especially North) were built during the Maratha times - after the Mughals became their vassals.
Take this as a challenge.
Peace.
Hindustani78
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You call Ting or Tang but the fact doesnt change on the ground these were Outside Tribes.
Dhul-Qarnayn Appears in Quran, Al-Kahf (الكهف, "The Cave") is the 18th Chapter 18: Verses 83-101 as one who travels to East and West and erects a wall between mankind and Gog and Magog (called Ya'juj and Ma'juj).
Schalors have pointed out where Rasool Allah Muhammed ṣallā llāhu ʿalayhi wa-sallam Showing the "Land of Gog and Magog" in Mongolia or of various walls built in the Caspian Area against the Northern Barbarians
Nabi Dhul-Qarnayn era was before Rasool Allah Muhammed ṣallā llāhu ʿalayhi wa-sallam.
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