Tejas not to be battle ready before 2015.

[Hobo1]

^^^
you folks are just manufacturing stuff from Chinese designs which India has been doing for over 4 decades now. So what is big deal about it.

 

[MilSpec]

The amount of money spend in LCA program or will be spend,,, I sometimes thinks what IF PAF were provided with such amount to carry on the JF-17 program (IF wishes were horses),,, The point i'm trying to make is Indian defence production establishment is awful in delivering performance in time despite hugh amount of funds

I still doubt if pakistan would have done any better, Please understand JF17/FC1 is still a chinese designed and manufactured fighter jet with pakistani customisations, and the production is being tranfered through technology transfer to pakistan, Similar to HAL mig 21 Bison of the eighties, which in essence had the same technology transfer route, More importantly, for all Indian ToT aircrafts, we manufactured the engines, can you say the same about the JF17?

LCA is a very ambitious project for India, and yes there will be roadblocks, but the investment that you see in LCA is not just for one aircraft but also to build an entire aeronautical environment for india. The investment that started in late 90's will start reaping it's benefits, similar to the dividends we are seeing on the investment in ISRO in the 80's.

 

[Bratva]

We are manufacturing complete MKI since last decade (even engine) .... So what’s so special in that??

^^^
you folks are just manufacturing stuff from Chinese designs which India has been doing for over 4 decades now. So what is big deal about it.

They send you kits and you assemble MKI in India right? or you manufacture MKI from scratch?

I still doubt if pakistan would have done any better, Please understand JF17/FC1 is still a chinese designed and manufactured fighter jet with pakistani customisations, and the production is being tranfered through technology transfer to pakistan, Similar to HAL mig 21 Bison of the eighties, which in essence had the same technology transfer route, More importantly, for all Indian ToT aircrafts, we manufactured the engines, can you say the same about the JF17?

LCA is a very ambitious project for India, and yes there will be roadblocks, but the investment that you see in LCA is not just for one aircraft but also to build an entire aeronautical environment for india. The investment that started in late 90's will start reaping it's benefits, similar to the dividends we are seeing on the investment in ISRO in the 80's.

And that was my point . If that kind of investment or money we had, we could have done wonders of course not alone but through partnerships. With ever changing environment and the wish of armed forces to fulfill their needs ASAP, Going solo in a project of critical nature should only be done if there is guarantee or surety that it will be delivered on time

 

[MilSpec]

They send you kits and you assemble MKI in India right? or you manufacture MKI from scratch?



And that was my point . If that kind of investment or money we had, we could have done wonders of course not alone but through partnerships. With ever changing environments and need of fulfilling armed forces wishes, Going solo in a project of critical nature should only be done if there is guarantee or surety that it will be delivered on time

PAF gives a lot of incentives to PAC for JF 17 which HAL can never expect from IAF, for example the way JF17 was inducted without establishing all it's FOC capabilities, IAF would never do anything like that to induct LCA, instead they will keep on adding the list of features and to do lists to the needed capability of the A/c with time.


As far as you ToT question is concerned, i will repost from a diff thread if your remark is really aimed to know how ToT works

Originally Posted by Dillinger
For an absolute noob like me, could you break it down.

Who designs the air crafts, who manufactures them?

Do DRDO, ADA and HAL all take part in the design process of the same aircraft- like the LCA?

I have heard what you've posted before but never in the succinct manner that you've presented in that HAL resents the fact that DRDO never provides specifics for manufacturing such as the tooling and jigs.

Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?

Any hope that HAL will finally have its way and have its legitimate demands met so that it may provide what is required by the IAF?

Production design:
For a high technology complex system like Su30MKI, The system design, production planning ans assembly is done in three phases of technology transfer, which is quite similar to automotive industry.

Phase I
The most complex part of manufacturing aircraft is the assembly process, or rather a smooth problem free assembly process. Hence in the first phase of ToT, training teams from russia train HAL final assembly staff in training cells and prepare the workstations rigs for assembly.

Then assembly fixtures arrive for installation in the assembly hangars and mock w/p are set up for dry runs
CKD kits from Irkut were flown to nasik division.

These ckd kits are assembled under Russian supervision where tech leads are trained by russian techs.

Pre-Phase II (In conjunction with phase I)

On conjunction to above , process, plating, avionics, machining, stamping, profiling, engine, electrical, hydraulics and landing gear work cells, are released the design data amounting to almost 50% of the subsystems

Planning department then streamlines the production schedule, and begins the early launch containment programs for each product line. End of the line testing workcell are established according to design requirements specified by the irkut.

Phase II begins.

Instead of CKD, only high technology complex subsystems are importedd from Irkut and on the assembly line HAL produced equipment is substituted, Quality checks at end of the line are the strictest possible. These subsytems in my experience are of even better quality that the russian sourced ones. Russian assembly technicians roles are reduced, with HAL techinicians taking over complete build schedule.

Phase III
This is the tricky phase where HAL tries to use it's resources for indigenous production of phase 2 subsytems, and bring in experts from russia for complete technology transfer for Phase 3 subsytems. This part is tricky because no manufacturer wants give out subsytems that are highly profitable and the designers tend to try and keep some level of interdependence. Albiet with successful deployment of phase 3, HAL gets into the position of successfully building the entire aircraft from scratch minus a few subsystems.

LCA:

HAL did not take any part in LCA's design. HAL has an AFS in it's compound, it employs the best IAF pilots as it's CTP and is very cognizant of flying characteristics whereas ADA chaps live in lala land and have a smug assumption that they know better than both HAL and the IAF. HAL was brought in when ADA chaps oblivious of manufacturing process ran into problems with production design, plant layout, workflow management, material planning etc. Now imagine with MKI lines running full steam, and HAL being snubbed from the beginning with LCA, what level of resources HAL might have provided for LCA support system. After all it was out of goodwill and not a paid gig.

And then when ADA did come up with the final so called LCA Mk1 package, HAL drilled holes after holes in its poorly packaged plan. HAL did what it could to patch the project to build what ADA wanted, knowing from the beginning , that it is uterlly mismanaged by ada and wont be accepted by IAF. But the MoD and antony baba stepped in and got the IOC, Now that HAL sees that this is going to eventually fall on HAL''s head, top brass of HAL is taking the initiative for the MK2, and fighting hard to "get it done", and the timing couldn't be worse with ELC for ALH, LCH approaching, MKI lines running full steam and the rafale sword dangling overhead, production package for Mk2 is big hassle.

The plan I am hoping is the same HAL followed for getting Mig 21 Bis> Bison standard, but just on a larger scale, another impediment is banglore division of HAL is a complex of multiple units, and runninga dedicated full line there along with jag overhaul, Mig 29 Upgrade, AJT production and Rafale ELC is a little troublesome, and the big guys at nasik division have thier hands full with MKI and planning for FGFA.

The best option would have been to build a additional line in HAL nasik, but LCA is a low cost and unfortunately still a low volume product and doesn't mandate building additional lines. So unless there premium offered by either AMCA design and research or LCA high volume order book, the production for LCA will depend on "jugaad".


Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?
Are HAL MKI's same as russia, the answer is yes and no!
Some subsystems are indeed of superior quality and excellent value compared to russian subsystems. Some equipment are indianized versions of russian which are as good, but are in the early atage of thier product life cycle and hence have the room to grow. these subsystems can be refered to as equipment that might be not as good as thier russian versions but are adequate, safe and highly cost effective.

About some of the subsystems being sourced from russia, as I mentioned even in phase 3 of the ToT, the original designers like to keep some subsytems proprietary, because they are a constant source of income. There is no way around it, Russians are not the only one who do that, key subsystems for F16 were not transferred by general dynamics to samsung or fokker.

Yes indeed production rate for HAL is low as I said, the manufacturing system in HAL incorporates FMS and not a line production system which are optimized for mass production. When MKI project was envisaged, 100 aircraft were planned and subsequently appropriate workcells were formed, Now Indian economy and MoD got fat with our tax money and decided to get 300 aircrafts instead, which reeks of extremely poor planning. If such order book was commissioned form the beginning , HAL would have set up the work cells to produce 40 aircraft a year instead of 15. Infrastructure for manufacturing aircrafts is quite complex, and immense foresight is needed for it's execution. When IAF top brass behaves like a rich brat, it is difficult to create a harmonious synergy. As far as mr sengupta is concerned, doubt if can even use a micrometer screw gauge, i wont attach much weight to his opinion.

Now to answer your last question , Ummid pe duniya kayam hain

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...personnel-about-lca-amca-5.html#ixzz2VMP90tfy

 

[Bratva]

PAF gives a lot of incentives to PAC for JF 17 which HAL can never expect from IAF, for example the way JF17 was inducted without establishing all it's FOC capabilities, IAF would never do anything like that to induct LCA, instead they will keep on adding the list of features and to do lists to the needed capability of the A/c with time.


As far as you ToT question is concerned, i will repost from a diff thread if your remark you really want to know how ToT works

Originally Posted by Dillinger
For an absolute noob like me, could you break it down.

Who designs the air crafts, who manufactures them?

Do DRDO, ADA and HAL all take part in the design process of the same aircraft- like the LCA?

I have heard what you've posted before but never in the succinct manner that you've presented in that HAL resents the fact that DRDO never provides specifics for manufacturing such as the tooling and jigs.

Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?

Any hope that HAL will finally have its way and have its legitimate demands met so that it may provide what is required by the IAF?

Production design:
For a high technology complex system like Su30MKI, The system design, production planning ans assembly is done in three phases of technology transfer, which is quite similar to automotive industry.

Phase I
The most complex part of manufacturing aircraft is the assembly process, or rather a smooth problem free assembly process. Hence in the first phase of ToT, training teams from russia train HAL final assembly staff in training cells and prepare the workstations rigs for assembly.

Then assembly fixtures arrive for installation in the assembly hangars and mock w/p are set up for dry runs
CKD kits from Irkut were flown to nasik division.

These ckd kits are assembled under Russian supervision where tech leads are trained by russian techs.

Pre-Phase II (In conjunction with phase I)

On conjunction to above , process, plating, avionics, machining, stamping, profiling, engine, electrical, hydraulics and landing gear work cells, are released the design data amounting to almost 50% of the subsystems

Planning department then streamlines the production schedule, and begins the early launch containment programs for each product line. End of the line testing workcell are established according to design requirements specified by the irkut.

Phase II begins.

Instead of CKD, only high technology complex subsystems are importedd from Irkut and on the assembly line HAL produced equipment is substituted, Quality checks at end of the line are the strictest possible. These subsytems in my experience are of even better quality that the russian sourced ones. Russian assembly technicians roles are reduced, with HAL techinicians taking over complete build schedule.

Phase III
This is the tricky phase where HAL tries to use it's resources for indigenous production of phase 2 subsytems, and bring in experts from russia for complete technology transfer for Phase 3 subsytems. This part is tricky because no manufacturer wants give out subsytems that are highly profitable and the designers tend to try and keep some level of interdependence. Albiet with successful deployment of phase 3, HAL gets into the position of successfully building the entire aircraft from scratch minus a few subsystems.

LCA:

HAL did not take any part in LCA's design. HAL has an AFS in it's compound, it employs the best IAF pilots as it's CTP and is very cognizant of flying characteristics whereas ADA chaps live in lala land and have a smug assumption that they know better than both HAL and the IAF. HAL was brought in when ADA chaps oblivious of manufacturing process ran into problems with production design, plant layout, workflow management, material planning etc. Now imagine with MKI lines running full steam, and HAL being snubbed from the beginning with LCA, what level of resources HAL might have provided for LCA support system. After all it was out of goodwill and not a paid gig.

And then when ADA did come up with the final so called LCA Mk1 package, HAL drilled holes after holes in its poorly packaged plan. HAL did what it could to patch the project to build what ADA wanted, knowing from the beginning , that it is uterlly mismanaged by ada and wont be accepted by IAF. But the MoD and antony baba stepped in and got the IOC, Now that HAL sees that this is going to eventually fall on HAL''s head, top brass of HAL is taking the initiative for the MK2, and fighting hard to "get it done", and the timing couldn't be worse with ELC for ALH, LCH approaching, MKI lines running full steam and the rafale sword dangling overhead, production package for Mk2 is big hassle.

The plan I am hoping is the same HAL followed for getting Mig 21 Bis> Bison standard, but just on a larger scale, another impediment is banglore division of HAL is a complex of multiple units, and runninga dedicated full line there along with jag overhaul, Mig 29 Upgrade, AJT production and Rafale ELC is a little troublesome, and the big guys at nasik division have thier hands full with MKI and planning for FGFA.

The best option would have been to build a additional line in HAL nasik, but LCA is a low cost and unfortunately still a low volume product and doesn't mandate building additional lines. So unless there premium offered by either AMCA design and research or LCA high volume order book, the production for LCA will depend on "jugaad".


Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?
Are HAL MKI's same as russia, the answer is yes and no!
Some subsystems are indeed of superior quality and excellent value compared to russian subsystems. Some equipment are indianized versions of russian which are as good, but are in the early atage of thier product life cycle and hence have the room to grow. these subsystems can be refered to as equipment that might be not as good as thier russian versions but are adequate, safe and highly cost effective.

About some of the subsystems being sourced from russia, as I mentioned even in phase 3 of the ToT, the original designers like to keep some subsytems proprietary, because they are a constant source of income. There is no way around it, Russians are not the only one who do that, key subsystems for F16 were not transferred by general dynamics to samsung or fokker.

Yes indeed production rate for HAL is low as I said, the manufacturing system in HAL incorporates FMS and not a line production system which are optimized for mass production. When MKI project was envisaged, 100 aircraft were planned and subsequently appropriate workcells were formed, Now Indian economy and MoD got fat with our tax money and decided to get 300 aircrafts instead, which reeks of extremely poor planning. If such order book was commissioned form the beginning , HAL would have set up the work cells to produce 40 aircraft a year instead of 15. Infrastructure for manufacturing aircrafts is quite complex, and immense foresight is needed for it's execution. When IAF top brass behaves like a rich brat, it is difficult to create a harmonious synergy. As far as mr sengupta is concerned, doubt if can even use a micrometer screw gauge, i wont attach much weight to his opinion.

Now to answer your last question , Ummid pe duniya kayam hain

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...personnel-about-lca-amca-5.html#ixzz2VMP90tfy

If you have read about the Eurofighter development cycle, It was inducted first and capabilities were later added or are being added as we speak. The dilemma of IAF is it needs a complete package before induction and perhaps does not have patience to do iduct first and add capabilities later

 

[MilSpec]

If you have read about the Eurofighter development cycle, It was inducted first and capabilities were later added or are being added as we speak. The dilemma of IAF is it needs a complete package before induction and perhaps does not have patience to do iduct first and add capabilities later

That is predominantly defined by the role that the aircraft serves, for example: an envisaged air dominance fighter like MKI was a paper concept and had an orderbook of 100 because it came from a proven background, same goes for EFT with A2g/aesa, Rafale with A2G/aesa, Mig 35 tvc (completely paper concept) etc. The reason for acceptance is reliability studies of delivering wip projects within budget and timeframe.

That is not the case with ADA-LCA because there is no prior data available to insure the reliability data, Hence the project will always show alerts in any risk analysis. So the ACM has to be willing to stick his neck out to offset the risk, why would he do that when importing he sees a perfectly viable option of going the super expensive way ensuring project reliability, and at the same time inducting much more capable options stating project delays.

 

[faithfulguy]

Wonder if LCA taking that long...what they will do with AMCA...

AMCA is dead on arrival as of now.

If you have read about the Eurofighter development cycle, It was inducted first and capabilities were later added or are being added as we speak. The dilemma of IAF is it needs a complete package before induction and perhaps does not have patience to do iduct first and add capabilities later

Indians are just giving excuses for their failed LCA project. Its time to shelve this project.

 

[President]

AMCA is dead on arrival as of now.



Indians are just giving excuses for their failed LCA project. Its time to shelve this project.

Like the casino AC

 

[faithfulguy]

Like the casino AC

well, why always talk about another country. Does that make LCA a successful project.

 

[President]

well, why always talk about another country. Does that make LCA a successful project.

It is a sucessfull project, when the chinese start the request to shelve it, it proves implicitly that it is sucessfull ..period!

 

[conworldus]

It is a sucessfull project, when the chinese start the request to shelve it, it proves implicitly that it is sucessfull ..period!

Really? When? Do you have credible links for that?

 

[AADHAAR]

Really? When? Do you have credible links for that?

So, you clearly imply, that faithfulguy has no credibility.

We'll leave faithfulguy (whose "faith" just got a severe jolt at your hands), to sort out with you.

Let us know, if faith remains intact or the con-world.

 

[Icewolf]

Last time on this forum it said Tejas will be ready by late 2011...
Then 2012...
Then 2013...
Then 2014...
Now 2015....

 

[LiberalAtheist]

Well make this as a TD and concentrate on the AMCA. The LCA has lost all relevance in the modern battlefield.

Yep, it makes more sense to redirect the resources into the ACMA project instead.

I think they want to do this but the Indian MOD probably doesn't want to cut its losses fearing a backlash over the credibility of the already substandard Indian domestic defense industry

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I think they want to do this but the Indian MOD probably doesn't want to cut its losses fearing a backlash over the credibility of the already substandard Indian domestic defense industry

Well how is the Indian defence industry sub standard compared to the ones in the south asian region?