Technological breakthrough raises nuclear fuel utilization rate: below 1% to 95%

[Han Patriot]

A.) We do not know whether or not Chinese actually successfully tested SPL Coupling with ADS, because

1.) ADS system is lacking, you cannot know if the coupling is successful, you can only test it when you have a working ADS reactor.
2.) China is not releasing any data.

Nobody is talking about a completed ADS here, you yourself highlighted earlier there is no working ADS. How are you going to release performance data for something that have not been completed? You are sounding in-cohesive now. Our debate was about how you came to conclusion, the 25Mev SPL designed for C-ADS is not a breakthrough and how you compare the performance parameters for something which haven't yet exist to something that had never existed.

I can claim I have successfully tested a magnetic core flux capacitor, if I do not release any detail on it, would you believe me??

B.) The problem regarding the ADS system is not limited on SPL. SPL is not the reason why ADS system cannot be progress at this stage. This is listed on the 2008 report from CERN

Again, who I am does not matter, I will suggest to @Shotgunner51 or @waz to delete your "Indian" Comment.

And to answer your question

http://world-nuclear.org/informatio...ration/accelerator-driven-nuclear-energy.aspx

Why is a SPL not the critical component of an ADS, since the word A clearly meant Accelerator. Please explain to me. Please stay on topic, don't talk about whatever magnetic flux. Then tell me what is the reason ADS cannot progress. In China's roadmap, the 25Mev SPL was clearly part of the step to accomplish a functioning ADS, I had shown you earlier.

So, yes, 100MeV SPL for ADS DID EXIST, or the Japanese is lying about that...(Notice the highlight in red is describing a Accelerator Driven Sub Critical Process, which is the basic principal for ADS. Just that the reactor core is not present)

Full report on here

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/18811248.2009.9711605?needAccess=true&

Hence if China is claiming breakthrough becausde the Chinese have made a SPL coupling to ADS, either they have a Functioning ADS reactor to actually linking it, then it would have been a breakthrough, otherwise what the Chinese has done, the Japanese had already done it in 2009

This is the Japanese particle accelerator, it is not an SPL. It is a FFAG

The main parameters of the proton beams were 100 MeV energy, 0.3 nA intensity,20 Hz pulsed frequency

> Source
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/790/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-4-431-55111-9_9.pdf?originUrl=http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-4-431-55111-9_9&token2=exp=1497234421~acl=/static/pdf/790/chp%253A10.1007%252F978-4-431-55111-9_9.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Fchapter%2F10.1007%2F978-4-431-55111-9_9*~hmac=2c16a7860218fbc64c261983fc81f50434684884d39d48b2e055544740b2136d


This is the Chinese SPL

In phase-I from 2011 to 2015, as R&D period, A 25-50 MeV linac will output a beam current of 10 mA in CW

> Source
http://accelconf.web.cern.ch/accelconf/pac2013/papers/mozba2.pdf

The Chinese SPL is continous wave, and this is the most important criteria to have a sustained spallation, whereas the Japanese accelerator is lower current intensity and pulsed beam. See the difference?

And to correct you further, China already has a functioning ADS, Venus-II but it is producing no net power.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/inform...ration/accelerator-driven-nuclear-energy.aspx

The Chinese Academy of Sciences has the Venus II ADS, which passed field tests early in 2017. The zero-power ADS transmutation system – developed by the China Atomic Energy Research Institute and the Chinese Academy of Sciences' Institute of Modern Physics – will be used for research into transforming long-lived radioactive waste into short-lived waste.

On the other hand, the Belgium is focusing on the Reactor Core

So, either Chinese have made and tested a ADS reactor core, the so-called "Breakthrough" does not exist. Is that clear? Or are you claiming something the Japanese has already done is a Breakthrough??

The Belgium reactor is not up and running yet and I think it's an ambitious plan worthy of Chinese study. Please understand the fundamentals of an ADS before spurting out things like there is no working ADS, Japan has got a better beam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerator

The Japanese particle accelerator architecture is FFAG

Fixed-Field Alternating Gradient accelerators (FFAG)s, in which a very strong radial field gradient, combined with strong focusing, allows the beam to be confined to a narrow ring, are an extension of the isochronous cyclotron idea that is lately under development.[23] They use RF accelerating sections between the magnets, and so are isochronous for relativistic particles like electrons (which achieve essentially the speed of light at only a few MeV), but only over a limited energy range for protons and heavier particles at sub-relativistic energies. Like the isochronous cyclotrons, they achieve continuous beam operation, but without the need for a huge dipole bending magnet covering the entire radius of the orbits.

The Chinese particle accelerator architecture is a Linear Particle Accelerator. You can't even differentiate a linac to a FFAG and yet you keep on calling the Japanese particle accelerator as SPL.

In a linear particle accelerator (linac), particles are accelerated in a straight line with a target of interest at one end. They are often used to provide an initial low-energy kick to particles before they are injected into circular accelerators. The longest linac in the world is the Stanford Linear Accelerator, SLAC, which is 3 km (1.9 mi) long. SLAC is an electron-positron collider.

Linear high-energy accelerators use a linear array of plates (or drift tubes) to which an alternating high-energy field is applied. As the particles approach a plate they are accelerated towards it by an opposite polarity charge applied to the plate. As they pass through a hole in the plate, the polarity is switched so that the plate now repels them and they are now accelerated by it towards the next plate. Normally a stream of "bunches" of particles are accelerated, so a carefully controlled AC voltage is applied to each plate to continuously repeat this process for each bunch.

As the particles approach the speed of light the switching rate of the electric fields becomes so high that they operate at radio frequencies, and so microwave cavities are used in higher energy machines instead of simple plates.

Linear accelerators are also widely used in medicine, for radiotherapy and radiosurgery. Medical grade linacs accelerate electrons using a klystron and a complex bending magnet arrangement which produces a beam of 6-30 MeV energy. The electrons can be used directly or they can be collided with a target to produce a beam of X-rays. The reliability, flexibility and accuracy of the radiation beam produced has largely supplanted the older use of cobalt-60 therapy as a treatment tool.

http://iifc.fnal.gov/srf-linac/files/app.pdf

The first step towards realizing ADS for nuclear energy production is an accelerator that can reliably deliver, almost loss free, a high power beam to a target. Critical accelerator physics and beam halo formation studies will be needed for proton energies below 50 MeV and 10's of milliamperes of beam current.

Now you understand why the Chinese 25MeV, 10mA SPL is so critical and considered a breakthrough?

Did I claim I make a breakthrough on ADS??

I don't believe I said so.

There are safety CONCERN you need to address before you put something in trial, as of this moment, not one Chinese publication have addressed these concern set out by Federation of Nuclear Scientist.

Again, if you can send me a report saying these obstacle are gone in any language, I am more than Happy to retract what I said, the fact is CHINA DOES NOT RELEASE ANY INFO ON ANYTHING.

China claimed a breakthrough and announced a 25MeV, 10mA CW, SPL. Now for the nth time, prove me wrong this is not a breakthrough. Tell me the advancement of other nations. PROVE ME WRONGGGGGGGGGG!! I had attached god knows how many papers describing the Chinese ADS program and yet you claim CHINA DOES NOT RELEASE ANY INFO!! Great. Some members here even pasted big images for you to see clearly, but I guess you are not interested in facts.

You do know the most critical nuclear related incident (By contamination, Not by death rate) is an accidental theft and release of Caesium 137 from an abandoned Hospital in brazil, Goiânia accident

In term of effect, not death, this incident surpassed even Chernobyl disaster, it killed 4, but contaminated 247 person, Chernobyl disaster on the other hand, killed 31 but only 237 was contaminated in the incident. Considering Chernobyl is a full blown nuclear reactor, but Goiania only ever leaked a Caesium medical capsule that's 55mm x 27mm, the death would have much worse if the medical capsule was a more potent form of radioactive material.

There are no reaction, no explosion, yet 247 people are contaminated and 4 killed. Are you saying this is not serious??

I have nothing else to say. You can't seem to understand the magnitude of a meltdown versus caesium contamination, which is a waste product. We are talking about reactor operations risk and you are talking about waste product.

The risk projections suggest that by now [2006] Chernobyl may have caused about 1000 cases of thyroid cancer and 4000 cases of other cancers in Europe, representing about 0.01% of all incident cancers since the accident. Models predict that by 2065 about 16,000 cases of thyroid cancer and 25,000 cases of other cancers may be expected due to radiation from the accident, whereas several hundred million cancer cases are expected from other causes.

It is difficult to establish the total economic cost of the disaster. According to Mikhail Gorbachev, the Soviet Union spent 18 billion rubles (the equivalent of US$18 billion at that time) on containment and decontamination, virtually bankrupting itself.[3] In Belarus the total cost over 30 years is estimated at US$235 billion (in 2005 dollars).[165] On-going costs are well known; in their 2003–2005 report, The Chernobyl Forum stated that between 5% and 7% of government spending in Ukraine is still related to Chernobyl, while in Belarus over $13 billion is thought to have been spent between 1991 and 2003, with 22% of national budget having been Chernobyl-related in 1991, falling to 6% by 2002.[165] Much of the current cost relates to the payment of Chernobyl-related social benefits to some 7 million people across the 3 countries.[165]

The Exclusion Zone covers an area of approximately 2,600 km2 (1,000 sq mi)[7] in Ukraine immediately surrounding the Chernobyl nuclear power plant where radioactive contamination from fallout is highest and public access and inhabitation are restricted. Other areas of compulsory resettlement and voluntary relocation not part of the restricted exclusion zone exist in the surrounding areas and throughout Ukraine.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Also, Human Error is to blame for the Chernobyl Disaster as well, hence Human Error is the major risk of Nuclear Material.

Meltdown is not the clause, rather it is an end result from several factor, and a ADS sub-critical core can leak, and once it leak, it would still be as dangerous as meltdown. And since there are more control variable between an ADS and Conventional Reactor, more things can go wrong, and hence the probability of something went wrong in an ADS is greater than a conventional reactor. This is simple logic.

And LOL on you. if ALL NUCLEAR REACTOR ARE REDUNDANT, then there WOULD NOT BE ANY ACCIDENT. Meltdown or Not, what you said is really genius.

It doesn't matter whether it's human error or design error. Prove to me a reactor with no possiblity of a meltdown is less safer than a reactor which can meltdown due to whatever reasons. You are still not answering my question.

All nuclear reactor control system is redundant as required by IAEA. Redundancy does not mean something will not fail, it just reduces the probability of failure genius. Do you have a technical based degree, you can't seem to grasp basic concepts.

I NEVER CLAIM TO BE A NUCLEAR SCIENTIST, again, please point to where I said I am a nuclear scientist in this post or any other post? I will issue an apology immediately.

Yes, I studied in Colorado, and in case you do not know, there is a very large nuclear testing site in Whiteman AFB, a lot of my schoolmate ended up in nuclear science. And yes, one of my cousin are a nuclear scientist and work in Oak Ridge, do you want his e-mail so you can communicate with him and so he can humiliate you??

Gunpowder was invented during 11th century in China, why the world first musket does not exist until 300 years later in 15th century? You ask some dumb question buddy.

And do tell me how the SPL is a breakthrough on ADS? When A.) SPL is not the problem, B.) SPL used in ADS was already tested in Japan in 2009?

Please stick to the topic, don't talk about gunpowder, or else I will start talking about the first hand cannon in the world that spread to Europe and developed into the Musket. Let's keep your grandmother out of this shall we. You can claim to be Einsteins grand kid for all I care. Again, Japan does not have a goddamn SPL, genius.

 

[Han Patriot]

View attachment 403104
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I now understand more about the C-ADS, it is actually the most ambitious ADS ever. Look at the second slide no.4 in your post. It is a 10MW class reactor surpassing all other planned reactors.
http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/65803

On 2 July, teams working on “Injector I” at the Chinese Academy of Sciences’ Institute of High Energy Physics (IHEP) in Beijing succeeded in accelerating a proton beam to an energy of 10.11 MeV with a peak beam current of 10.5 mA in pulse mode. “This is a major breakthrough for the ADS Injector I after five years of hard work by scientists from the Institute of High Energy Physics, and marks a new step for high-current proton-linear-accelerator technology worldwide,” explains IHEP deputy-director Weimin Pan.

The Chinese ADS Injector I is the world’s first proton accelerator to use low-β superconducting “spoke cavities”.

This was the breakthrough on the injectors before the accomplishment of the 25meV CW SPL. I had actually underestimated Chinese ambitions, it was the same for MSTR, HTGR and now this ADS, these are all world leading effort. Gosh, we are not trying to catch up, we are trying to change human history

 

[zeronet]

This pic shows all. The only one above 10MW ceiling is C-ADS

 

[GS Zhou]

An ADS system consists of three key sub-systems:
- Accelerator
- Heavy Metal Spallation Target
- Subcritical reactor

The ADS diagram could be simplified as follow. (Pls forgive my bad handwriting).

The working principal of the ADS system is:
- The accelerator creates high energy and high power proton beams to bombard the heavy metal spallation target;
- The target thereof produces neutrons, and the neutrons from the target is injected to the subcritical reactor, where the nuclear wastes are put inside;
- the neutrons produced by spallation would cause fission in the reactor, assisted by further neutrons arising from that fission.

To develop the ADS system means you need to develop and build all the three sub-systems, accelerators, spallation target, and subcritical reactor, as the first step (Step-I), and then integrate the three sub-systems to create a combined ADS system (Step-II).

By now, China has completed Step-I, i.e. all the three sub-systems have been successfully developed.
- Accelerator: In June 2017, the China-developed ADS accelerator achieves 25MeV in proton beam energy, world highest record in its kind.
http://www.cas.cn/syky/201706/t20170608_4604239.shtml

- Spallation target: China has proposed a novel concept of spallation target, the Granular Flow Target (GFT). Intensive supercomputer-based simulations have been done, and a demo facility has also been created.
http://hpcchina2016.csp.escience.cn/dct/page/70040

- Subcritical-reactor: Qimingxing-II (启明星II号), China's ADS reactor, did its starting-test in Dec. 2016.
http://www.impcas.ac.cn/xwzx/kyjz/201612/t20161225_4727510.html

With the completions of Step-I, China is now starting the Step-II, aiming to link the three sub-systems (accelerator, spallation target and reactor) together to build the CIADSF (China Initiative Accelerator Driven System). The CIADS project, scheduled to be completed by 2022, will be located in Huizhou, Guandong Province. Once completed, it will be world's first ADS system in operation, i.e. China could start to enhance its nuclear Uranium utilization from 1% to 95%.
http://www.imp.cas.cn/xwzx/snxw/201601/t20160115_4518642.html

 

[yusheng]

let it be, some idt tried hard to prove
these tow cars are same because they have same name "CAR"
so what else we can say?
taking part in such discussion will harm your IQ

 

[Han Patriot]

Because SPL is not the critical technology that's setting back the development of ADS.

Japan tested with Particle accelerator to mimic the reaction on ADS, which mean FFAP can already did the job as the Japanese publicize their finding on the ADS experiment. Stating it is feasible to have the FFAG work on ADS. China using SPL to start a reaction is in another word, "REINVENTING THE WHEEL"

Bro, don't keep on fapping, it's FFAG. If I didn't tell you this, you would have kept on saying it's an SPL. . I had been asking you since the first post until now, why isn't SPL a critical technology for an ADS? If FFAG is feasible, why does it not move forward after the experiment 10 years ago? Why is the Belgium MYRRHA and C-ADS, the latest research reactors both following the SPL route? Nobody is reinventing anything here since this is a different route to achieving a feasible ADS producing MW to GW scale power. Let me give you a hint, how much power did the Japanese reactor produce?

We are talking about Accelerator Driven Sub-Critical Reactor, not Superconducting Proton Linear Accelerator. Yes, you make achieve a smaller requirement for ADS using a SPL instead of a FFAG (One being 25MeV and the other being 100 MeV) The problem is, the reaction is the same, so, yes, China producing the SPL base ADS coupling is an achievement, however, as far as ADS breakthrough concern, the achieve have already been past. Because the Japanese already had done it with a Accelerator on an Accelerator Driven Subcritical Reactor.

WE are talking about ADS breakthrough, not SPL breakthrough. the Chinese is simply reinventing the wheel into a better shape. Unless you are tell me with evidence that ADS only work with SPL, otherwise, the Chinese breakthrough is on the SPL, not the ADS system, if the test is indeed success

Are you sure the reaction is the same? One is a CW beam and the other a pulsed beam, and that too with different current intensity. LOL. Man, you sound like some sort of quack doctor describing brain surgery. .
So tell me what is the difference between the Japanese reactor to the Chinese reactor, why is it more advanced? What exactly have been achieved here? How much power was generated, producing ADS to transmute nuclear fuel to less radioactive material had been done.

Nobody said it was a completed ADS, since day one we were saying it was a breakthrough towards a working ADS producing MW/GW level power. You are the one comparing something which is not even completed. Until today you are still not answering me why the Chinese ADS is less safe, less efficient and not cost effective. Please for the nth time answer meeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Particle Accelerator, ALL PARTICLE ACCELERATOR is a critical component of a ADS, I have not denied this, I have denied the Chinese SPL is a Breakthrough to ADS, because Accelerator used by Japan have already been tested.

Or you are trying to argue FFAG Accelerator cannot be used on ADS system? If so, the breakthrough is already done back in 2009 on ADS, because the Japanese already had experimented on the ADS using a FFAG Accelerator.

I know what is a FFAG and SPL, but do you know the different between SPL and FFAG ON an ADS REACTOR?

To begin with, the process of ADSC is from a Accelerator Generating Neutron by Spallation, and supplying said neutron into a subcritical reactor, the process, is what defined in ADS, there are no requirement for which accelerator to be used in the system?

We are talking about the breakthrough, which the Japanese come up with the BREAKTHROUGH FINDING OF THE FOLLOWING VALUE in 2009. According to the KUCA report

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/18811248.2009.9711605?needAccess=true&

Irradiated indium foil thickness
Comparison of C/E values of reaction rates
The statistical error of the detection efficiency
Reaction Rate
Saturation Activities
The adjustment of eigenvalue

What do we know about the Chinese Finding?

Nothing but a claimed success of SPL Coupling.

There are no data coming out form the Chinese "Breakthrough" so what is the value of measurement of such breakthrough? In fact, what did Chinese do in this end toward the ADS beside testing a SPL they claimed to be coupled/coupling to an ADS?

Come one, just admit you didn't know shit. You want me to copy and paste what you said? You kept on saying the Japanese had a more 'powerful' SPL. LOL

The debate here is not about the Japanese reactors performance, the debate here is how you knew the performance of the C-ADS reactor when none had been built yet. That's why I was asking you. How did you travel to the future?

Any accelerator can be used for an ADS according to my google sources, but can you tell me why the most 2 recent reactors are using the SPL route? Nobody is arguing whether FFAG can be used, it had been used. The question is whether it can be use for a net power producing reactor at the MW or even GW level corresponding to commercial applications. Otherwise, it's just another VENUS-II burning nuclear waste.

Why isn't the Chinese SPL a breakthrough towards building the Chinese ADS, please tell me? Please Please answer me...pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee

LOL. If I have a decommissioned nuclear bomb at my home, it produce no fission and critical reaction. I use mine to study the effect on internal explosion triggering mechanism, if I put in Plutonium Core and the bomb will work, can I say I have a nuclear weapon at home??

Do you know why Venus II is zero power device??

What are you talking about man... tell me why VENUS-II is a zero power device, and then go google the Japanese reactor and tell me how much power it produces and for how long.

So, just because Japanese uses FFAG Accelerator and that is b=not a break through? Did there mentioned anywhere ADS system must be driven by SPL?

You have a false understanding of breakthrough. If you are claiming the Chinese Accelerator is better, then yes, but was it a breakthrough toward the ADS Technology? No, because it have already been done, and necessary data have been taken from an experiment in 2009. That was already a breakthrough them China cannot "Re-Breakthrough" of an achievement just because Chinese is using a SPL, and the Japanese is using a FFAR Accelerator, because the basic principal regarding the ADS ARE THE SAME

Again, unless Chinese can argue otherwise, (which is why SPL is more important than FFAG as a source of Accelerator and how it impact the process of ADS) China cannot claim this as breakthrough

Bro, nobody is arguing about whether FFAG can be used here, it has already been used, whether it's effective, you can see from the technological trend, no new reactors are using this route, please don't shift the goalpost, the argument here is how do you know the Chinese reactor is less efficient, more expensive and not safe when NONE HAD BEEN BUILT.

What exactly had been done here? What is being 're-breakthrough'? China is not trying to build an ADS, they already built one, they are trying to build C-ADS to produce power in the MW/GW level and this accroding to their opinion can only be achieved using SPL CW beam, MRYYHA is also following the same route. Nobody had ever built an ADS reactor using SPL, and none are producing power in any meaningful manner for commercial applications. The Japanese 'breakthrough' you refer to is only as meaningful as the VENUS-II reactor. Nice try buddy.

Chinese SPL is 25MeV, 10mA

Japanese FFAGA is 100 MeV, 10-50mA

I don't see how SPL can be important or differnet than FFAGA with regard to the ADS system.

Why is the SPL the same as the FFAG since both are of different architecture, can you tell me how both are the same? In terms of what? Explain to me the reaction rate, the efficiency, etc. Btw, can you give me a quote from a link saying the Japanese FFAG is 10-50mA?

What are the data obtained by the Chinese "25 MeV, 10mA CW SPL"

because the Japanese have the following data/founding,

1. foil activation method is useful for the measurement of the neutron spectrum
2. The adjustment of eigenvalue was estimated in the neutron guide core so that the eigenvalue calculation in the critical state would give a keff equivalent to 1:000080:00013 in the effect
3. The eigenvalue calculation was executed for 2,000 active cycles of 10,000 histories
4. At the target region, a comparison between the experimental and calculation values with JENDL-3.3 showed fairly good agreement for 115 In with an error under 10% of the C/E value, whereas 56 Fe and 27 Al demonstrated large discrepancies with an error over 60%
5. The statistical error of the detection efficiency by EGS4 was estimated to be less than 1%
6. relative difference was a maximum of 8% individual foil irradiation

Now that is only the non-tabulated result, thare are a few more result the Japanese have published.

NOW TELL ME WHAT KIND OF RESULT THE CHIENSE YEILD TO BE CALLED A BREAKTHROUGH?

Just that they can use SPL on ADS itself is a breakthrough? If yes, then your definition of breakthrough is quite board, and even in international standard, I never saw IAEA, Federation of Nuclear Scientist, CERN called the Japanese finding "Breakthrough" on ADS they call it the first experiment. So tell me, how you can call Chinese SPL a breakthrough on ADS??

Yield on what bro? There is no ADS, there is only an SPL. I am asking you the nth time, how are you comparing something which is not even built yet?

You are talking about serious incident, it have no relation to the magnitude, tell me which is a more serious accident?

A 10 Car piled up on a Highway with 2 people Killed and 40 people injured, or a 2 cars head on collision resulting 4 killed and 2 injury?

And no, Caesium 137 is NOT A WASTE PRODUCT, you have obviously does not read up on the incident. It was a standard capsule used in teletherphy, it is not a nuclear waste, the incident is contributed to human error and mishandling of nuclear material. It's not something people left behind after they have finished using it. That is nuclear waste.

Caesium is mined mostly from pollucite, while the radioisotopes, especially caesium-137, a fission product, are extracted from waste produced by nuclear reactors.

Genius, don't be lazy, just google. Hey, you have been wrong for alot of statements. Do you still want me to humiliate you further?

Lol, if magnitude has nothing to do with seriousness, then what is? . You really need to stop humiliating yourself further.

Again, just because something does not meltdown does not mean they will not malfunction, that is simple logic, cannot be meltdown mean it cannot meldown, it does notmean there cannot be an critical accident. ADS Reactor core can still malfunction and explode if the control parameter such as EM, Pressure, Vacuum, Cooling, Mechanical fail. And the fact that there are more variable that can go wrong in ADS than in SPL, that mean they are actually less safe than ADS unless all these problem are ramified.

just because something does not meltdown, it only mean it does not melt down, it does not mean it they will not explode, EVER.

Bro, the debate is why are you saying a meltdown proof reactor is less safer than a reactor with a chance for meltdown. You are still not answering this question.....you are just shifting the goalpost, diverting the topic. Of course everything has got some other unknown risk, a nuke might land on the reactor, so?

yeah, yeah yeah, let's keep your family dog out of this too. I am not the one who ask people qualification, I am not the one keep saying I am an Indian or what not, in fact, I am more Chinese than you can EVER be, at least I have a Chinese Passport and I do not need to apply for a Visa to go back to China, can you do that?

But then who cares who I am? You talk about points, not someone's background, I don't understand the people here obsession about people's background? You are a genius on calling people name, that's it. LOL, have a nice day

Yup and pigs can fly. You are a straight giveaway my friend, very typical. Btw, I do have Chinese passport =).

An ADS system consists of three key sub-systems:
- Accelerator
- Heavy Metal Spallation Target
- Subcritical reactor

The ADS diagram could be simplified as follow. (Pls forgive my bad handwriting).
View attachment 403141

The working principal of the ADS system is:
- The accelerator creates high energy and high power proton beams to bombard the heavy metal spallation target;
- The target thereof produces neutrons, and the neutrons from the target is injected to the subcritical reactor, where the nuclear wastes are put inside;
- the neutrons produced by spallation would cause fission in the reactor, assisted by further neutrons arising from that fission.

To develop the ADS system means you need to develop and build all the three sub-systems, accelerators, spallation target, and subcritical reactor, as the first step (Step-I), and then integrate the three sub-systems to create a combined ADS system (Step-II).

By now, China has completed Step-I, i.e. all the three sub-systems have been successfully developed.
- Accelerator: In June 2017, the China-developed ADS accelerator achieves 25MeV in proton beam energy, world highest record in its kind.
http://www.cas.cn/syky/201706/t20170608_4604239.shtml

- Spallation target: China has proposed a novel concept of spallation target, the Granular Flow Target (GFT). Intensive supercomputer-based simulations have been done, and a demo facility has also been created.
http://hpcchina2016.csp.escience.cn/dct/page/70040

- Subcritical-reactor: Qimingxing-II (启明星II号), China's ADS reactor, did its starting-test in Dec. 2016.
http://www.impcas.ac.cn/xwzx/kyjz/201612/t20161225_4727510.html

With the completions of Step-I, China is now starting the Step-II, aiming to link the three sub-systems (accelerator, spallation target and reactor) together to build the CIADSF (China Initiative Accelerator Driven System). The CIADS project, scheduled to be completed by 2022, will be located in Huizhou, Guandong Province. Once completed, it will be world's first ADS system in operation, i.e. China could start to enhance its nuclear Uranium utilization from 1% to 95%.
http://www.imp.cas.cn/xwzx/snxw/201601/t20160115_4518642.html

Bro, great information, but one small correction, the aim is for a power producing ADS, an ADS for transmuting nuclear waste had already been created.

 

[waz]

@Jlaw @terranMarine @grey boy 2

Fellas I have asked you before. Please stop the personal insults against @jhungary. I want two things from you. Number one you do not quote him or converse with him, I have never seen him ever use personal insults, yet I have deleted four in the thread just above. Secondly stop abusing him to other posters.

@Shotgunner51
@Sasquatch
@ahojunk

 

[Viet]

An ADS system consists of three key sub-systems:
- Accelerator
- Heavy Metal Spallation Target
- Subcritical reactor

The ADS diagram could be simplified as follow. (Pls forgive my bad handwriting).
View attachment 403141

The working principal of the ADS system is:
- The accelerator creates high energy and high power proton beams to bombard the heavy metal spallation target;
- The target thereof produces neutrons, and the neutrons from the target is injected to the subcritical reactor, where the nuclear wastes are put inside;
- the neutrons produced by spallation would cause fission in the reactor, assisted by further neutrons arising from that fission.

To develop the ADS system means you need to develop and build all the three sub-systems, accelerators, spallation target, and subcritical reactor, as the first step (Step-I), and then integrate the three sub-systems to create a combined ADS system (Step-II).

By now, China has completed Step-I, i.e. all the three sub-systems have been successfully developed.
- Accelerator: In June 2017, the China-developed ADS accelerator achieves 25MeV in proton beam energy, world highest record in its kind.
http://www.cas.cn/syky/201706/t20170608_4604239.shtml

- Spallation target: China has proposed a novel concept of spallation target, the Granular Flow Target (GFT). Intensive supercomputer-based simulations have been done, and a demo facility has also been created.
http://hpcchina2016.csp.escience.cn/dct/page/70040

- Subcritical-reactor: Qimingxing-II (启明星II号), China's ADS reactor, did its starting-test in Dec. 2016.
http://www.impcas.ac.cn/xwzx/kyjz/201612/t20161225_4727510.html

With the completions of Step-I, China is now starting the Step-II, aiming to link the three sub-systems (accelerator, spallation target and reactor) together to build the CIADSF (China Initiative Accelerator Driven System). The CIADS project, scheduled to be completed by 2022, will be located in Huizhou, Guandong Province. Once completed, it will be world's first ADS system in operation, i.e. China could start to enhance its nuclear Uranium utilization from 1% to 95%.
http://www.imp.cas.cn/xwzx/snxw/201601/t20160115_4518642.html

I like your drawing. sorry for repeating my silly question: how can you steer neutrons (generated by the middle box) to take the way to subcrital reactor (right box), under the condition, the neutrons MUST strike 95% of fissible Uran atoms?

 

[JSCh]

I like your drawing. sorry for repeating my silly question: how can you steer neutrons (generated by the middle box) to take the way to subcrital reactor (right box), under the condition, the neutrons MUST strike 95% of fissible Uran atoms?

Accelerator produced proton beam, proton has charge, therefore could be steered.
Proton then hit spallation target that produce neutron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spallation#Production_of_neutrons_at_a_spallation_neutron_source

Neutron then hit nuclear fuel/coolant blanket in the subcritical core which could produce further neutron plus fission heat that drive the generator.

 

[GS Zhou]

I like your drawing. sorry for repeating my silly question: how can you steer neutrons (generated by the middle box) to take the way to subcrital reactor (right box), under the condition, the neutrons MUST strike 95% of fissible Uran atoms?

We use Coefficient K to describe the reactor status. K is defined as "# of Neutrons generated from the fission / # of Neutrons consumed to support the fission".
- K>1, that means the reactor power is increasing. If the reactor is in the K>1 status constantly, that means nuclear disaster;
- K<1, that means the reactor consumes more neutrons than the neutrons that it could generate, i.e. the fission could not be sustained
- K=1, that means the fission is self-sustained.

The idea of the ADS system is to add an "external neutron resource" to support the fission of the "K<1" reactor. With every neutron gained from the external resource, the ADS reactor could generate 1/(1-K) neutrons.

The ADS reactor usually owns Coefficient K in between 0.95 to 0.98. Suppose the K is 0.98, 1/(1-K)=50, i.e. for every neutrons gained externally, the ADS reactor could generate 50 neutrons, so the fission could be continual.

 

[sinait]

We use Coefficient K to describe the reactor status. K is defined as "# of Neutrons generated from the fission / # of Neutrons consumed to support the fission".
- K>1, that means the reactor power is increasing. If the reactor is in the K>1 status constantly, that means nuclear disaster;
- K<1, that means the reactor consumes more neutrons than the neutrons that it could generate, i.e. the fission could not be sustained
- K=1, that means the fission is self-sustained.

The idea of the ADS system is to add an "external neutron resource" to support the fission of the "K<1" reactor. With every neutron gained from the external resource, the ADS reactor could generate 1/(1-K) neutrons.

The ADS reactor usually owns Coefficient K in between 0.95 to 0.98. Suppose the K is 0.98, 1/(1-K)=50, i.e. for every neutrons gained externally, the ADS reactor could generate 50 neutrons, so the fission could be continual.

I think maybe Viet is thinking along the lines that the extra neutrons for fission to happen need to be fired or directed towards the fuel like a gun or beam.
.

 

[Viet]

I think maybe Viet is thinking along the lines that the extra neutrons for fission to happen need to be fired or directed towards the fuel like a gun or beam.
.

bingo. consider this challenge:

- you create one proton, accelerate it to MACH 10 and shoot this highspeed proton to a neutron generated material.

- let say, one free flying neutron is created in the process. neutron direction is unclear. every direction is possible. you can´t control the neutron´s flight.

- this uncontrolled flying neutron must strike a fissile Uran atom that lies somewhere in a non-critical nuclear fuel, let say it lies in x1, y1, z1 coordinate. so how can you solve the problem?

- the only way I have in mind is you bombard the fuel by protons. the huge amount of neutrons created in the process will have higher chance to strike a fissile Uran atom.

the disadvantage: you may put more energy into the system than the energy you win.

a neutron cannon will solve the problem.

 

[sinait]

bingo. consider this challenge:

- you create one proton, accelerate it to MACH 10 and shoot this highspeed proton to a neutron generated material.

- let say, one free flying neutron is created in the process. neutron direction is unclear. every direction is possible. you can´t control the neutron´s flight.

- this uncontrolled flying neutron must strike a fissile Uran atom that lies somewhere in a non-critical nuclear fuel, let say it lies in x1, y1, z1 coordinate. so how can you solve the problem?

- the only way I have in mind is you bombard the fuel by protons. the huge amount of neutrons created in the process will have higher chance to strike a fissile Uran atom.

the disadvantage: you may put more energy into the system than the energy you win.

a neutron cannon will solve the problem.

Haha, you think we are now in si-fi movie.
Neutron is charge neutral, no positive or negative, only electron or proton, can be directed to hit and dislodge neutrons to start or continue the nuclear fission. These people here discussing are too advanced for us, that's why you got problem to understand them.
I think its too complicated if need to explain to us from the beginning.
You are right about putting more energy into the system than the energy produced, hence that VENUS-II is a zero power output device.
.
.

 

[Viet]

Haha, you think we are now in si-fi movie.
Neutron is charge neutral, no positive or negative, only electron or proton, can be directed to hit and dislodge neutrons to start or continue the nuclear fission. These people here discussing are too advanced for us, that's why you got problem to understand them.
I think its too complicated if need to explain to us from the beginning.
You are right about putting more energy into the system than the energy produced, hence that VENUS-II is a zero power output device.
.
.

thing is complicated because most posters tend copy and paste articles without understanding them. actually myself I haven´t heard of this stuff ADS before I see this thread. however, with a little knowledge of physics people can ask questions like I raised here. yes it is to find a way to defeat the physics, directing neutrons to a certain direction to hit certain fissile atoms in a fast ocean of non-fissile atoms. actually an impossible task.
yes it is like science fiction, unless you can invent a wall (I don´t know yet) that is able to collect/reflect the neutrons in a way and shoot them toward the non critical nuclear fuel.

there are 100 ways to creating protons, electrons and neutrons. fewer ways to split them into subatomic pieces. but it is very difficult to shoot a neutron to a atom. it is like you stand on a beach, throwing a stone into the water 1,000 miles away, hoping a hit a fish, that dives 100 meter under the water surface.

good luck

 

[sinait]

thing is complicated because most posters tend copy and paste articles without understanding them. actually myself I haven´t heard of this stuff ADS before I see this thread. however, with a little knowledge of physics people can ask questions like I raised here. yes it is to find a way to defeat the physics, directing neutrons to a certain direction to hit certain fissile atoms in a fast ocean of non-fissile atoms. actually an impossible task.
yes it is like science fiction, unless you can invent a wall (I don´t know yet) that is able to collect/reflect the neutrons in a way and shoot them toward the non critical nuclear fuel.
there are 100 ways to creating protons, electrons and neutrons. fewer ways to split them into subatomic pieces. but it is very difficult to shoot a neutron to a atom. it is like you stand on a beach, throwing a stone into the water 1,000 miles away, hoping a hit a fish, that dives 100 meter under the water surface.
good luck

Surprised its the 1st time you are hearing this ADS thingy. I am fascinated with nuclear power. I had been watching this nuclear development in China and its like waiting for ages for this Hualong and AP1000 to come online.
Luckily the nuclear power projects resumed after a brief suspension following the Fukushima incident.
The HTGR is also very interesting.
How is it in Vietnam.
.