Tata Deal With Lockheed Martin effect on PAF F16 fleet

[lionheartsalahudin]

well the indian assembled f16 won't come with a warranty pretty sure about that,if dassault has anything to say about it(rafale warranty issue on indian rafales)

 

[Jammer]

Nope. It is purely labour costs, which really comes down to training the manpower as well. Nothing else. Gripen with LCC costs 150-200M while Rafale costs $250-300M. It's obvious that splitting the fleet between the two jets will actually make it cheaper, not more expensive. We are talking about LCC.

The break even point for the IAF is 90 jets. After 90 jets, it makes no difference how many more jets we add, it's not going to bring down costs anymore, you can say any cost savings that we can get after 90 jets is very marginal. Which means we can always go for another type instead. That's why our MII contracts are also for 90-126 jets, that's 5 to 6 squadrons.

There was a time when we operated 14 different types of jets. That's when we were many times poorer than we are now. And we won't have more than 6 types by 2040 compared to 14 types.

Apart from that we have so many bases that it is impossible to spread out the infrastructure of our entire fleet to many more bases unless we get 250+ jets of the same type. The damage from "organizational complexity" is limited by the number of bases the aircraft are operated from. We have two bases that can handle the Mig-29, we have two that can handle the M-2000. That's more than enough for the numbers being used.

As for the article itself, the so-called "well researched" and "professional" article, whatever I posted above quashes most of the claims made in it. As I posted above, we are actually doing the exact opposite of what the article claims we should do. There goes your "professional" article. Of course, can't blame the writer since he has no clue we are going for 3 types of jets in parallel.

This little snippet for example--
Instead of chasing an unrealistic target of 40-44 squadrons of modern combat aircraft, or even the current minimum target of 39.5 squadrons, the IAF should try to eliminate much of the costly duplication of platforms for various missions and focus on defending its airspace from potential Chinese intrusions in future, and maintain credible offensive strike capabilities to ensure stable deterrence at the sub-nuclear level against Pakistan.

It will be news to him that IAF has decided to chase towards anywhere between 55 and 60 squadrons now. LCA, SE MII and TE MII.

LCA - 40+83+83
SE MII - 90+45+45+...
TE MII - 90+45+45+...
Navy - 57+90

This is the next 15 year plan. A squadron a year for each type. That's 600 jets for the IAF alone and another 150 for the IN.

You see, MMRCA was canceled, that was just a tender. If you haven't noticed, that wasn't the only tender canceled. The new govt canceled all tenders and are now re-issuing them again. MMRCA is one of them. And the SE tender is just half of that.

It's a well-written article for a westerner, but it has not captured the actual gist of what's happening on the ground. The very premise of the article is wrong.

After this reply I am convinced this is a useless effort on my part. You provide no evidence not even a link but yet you know the break even point on the jets, this is hilarious, anybody can make up facts to try to win an argument. Bring facts to the table that can be verified and you might have a case. See ya!

 

[randomradio]

why delay in export of Brahmos missile

Because Indian forces ordered twice more than planned. So production line was not free for exports.

Even today it's not free, but Parrikar has convinced the forces to allow the defence industry to keep 10% of the production for export.

The rest of your article is silly. You are just a conspiracy theorist.

After this reply I am convinced this is a useless effort on my part. You provide no evidence not even a link but yet you know the break even point on the jets, this is hilarious, anybody can make up facts to try to win an argument. Bring facts to the table that can be verified and you might have a case. See ya!

I made a post in 2015 on another forum.
==========
It is not part of the Rafale deal. What's happening is the govt is buying 36 Rafales and also negotiating for 126 Rafales. Because LCA is delayed, the govt has announced a parallel project for another single engine light fighter. That's where Gripen and Viper come in.

So, that's 36 + 126 Rafales, XX number of LCAs and XX number of Gripen/F-16/XX etc.

The 36 Rafales could be increased through options clauses, separate from the MMRCA deal's 126+63.

It means the Rafale deal became a whole lot bigger. And IAF may end up with another type of fighter in the light category.
========

Yeah, I made this post back in 2015. How many people knew about the F-16 tender back in 2015? You tell me. I've known about the IAF requirement being split into SE and TE back in 2014.

MMRCA is not dead. It has been renamed and rejigged. Earlier the plan was to sign the Rafale contract first under MMRCA and then start a new SE tender. But that got switched because of financial reasons and wrong procedures followed in the MMRCA deal. Now, the Rafale tender will be moved by a few years, so the navy can start getting the first set of MII jets. IAF will get 36-54 jets from France in the meanwhile.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-iaf-chief-arup-raha/articleshow/56220622.cms
However, the top officer made it clear that the competition for this mega order is still open for global competition, not specifying that the Rafale would automatically be chosen, given that the Air Force has already placed an order for 36.

“Over the next 10 years, we must have 200-250 aircraft. It has to be balanced out. In the heavy weight spectrum, we have enough. But in the medium weight category, we need to have more. Yes, about 200 will be very good,” the Air Chief said, adding that the Light Combat Aircraft with enhanced capabilities will be operated in large numbers soon.

There you go. The IAF chief is talking about the TE MII here. He is obviously talking about inducting large number of LCAs as well. Then you already know from media reports about this new F-16/Gripen contest.

The actual requirement for MMRCA is 400. But India can afford only 200 Rafales, so the rest will be single engine F-16/Gripen.

But we should eventually get a fleet of 350 Rafales between both the IAF and IN with the way things are going. Rafale's victory in the IN tender will seal the deal for the IAF as well.

http://www.forbesindia.com/article/...nce-group-form-aerospace-jv-for-india/45987/1
A report by industry association Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry and Centrum Capital had estimated in February 2015 that India’s defence spending was likely to total $620 billion between FY14 and FY22.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...fence-spending-spree/articleshow/58254406.cms
Modi has pledged to spend $250 billion by 2025 on weapons and military equipment

Note that both 2022 and 2025 don't exactly cover India's expenditure on Rafale MII. The main expenses for the jets will happen after these dates. That's when the PAK FA will also start coming in. India will have 4 fully functioning fighter jet lines after 2025, each delivering 1 squadron a year, plus access to 3 more production lines outside the country. The Rafale line alone could be 45/year in India.

 

[randomradio]

@Jammer

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...pes-to-build-200-in-india-116110301446_1.html
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has already approached major global fighter vendors, inviting them to build single-engine, medium fighters in India.

Now the spotlight is expanding to encompass heavier, twin-engine fighters as well.

On Thursday, Pratyush Kumar, President of Boeing India revealed that he expected a second inquiry from the IAF, asking international manufactures for interest in building twin-engine fighters in the country.

 

[StraightShooter]

how much cost this deal to india ?

$20+ Billion US Dollars

 

[帅的一匹]

Imo


Other than Chinease options the Pakistanis realistically have no other options .

Typhoon and rafale in
sufficient numbers IE fifty plus planes are simply out of reach .IE 15 billion dollars plus

USA,has constantly moved the goal posts for Pakistan and the status of south Asia main USA ally is over .something paf enjoyed for over fifty years until 2001.

Russia cannot produce the planes that paf needs unless it's bankrolled by Pakistan just like Indian paid for mki development and setting up license production

Thst leaves J10c from China or ten years hence the J31;

But what does Pakistan do between now and 2025

dont be cocky boy.

 

[StraightShooter]

Your post is spot on, but let's not forget that the Americans did this from knee jerk perspective. There are other and better aircraft they could have offered to India. Instead, they offered the F-16 for obvious reasons. It has an economic and a political angle to it.

I personally applaud this move because I believe that Pakistan would be better off working on a domestic fighter with the help of China. This move has put a definite nail in the F-16 coffin for Pakistan. The F-16 is an off the shelf solution and a very sanction prone fighter for Pakistan. We did a very good thing by starting the JF-17 JV with China. This was our insurance policy against the F-16 and it has paid off.

US has been offering F-16s to India since at least 2006. There is nothing new in this offer.

So what is the political angle that you are talking about?

The truth is that India is being pressured into buying these fighter jets. India is still the same country which has for a very long time opposed the acquisition of F-16 for obvious reasons. This unbelievable u-turn has no valid explanation apart from unrelenting pressure from the big boss.

Incorrect. India is not the same country that opposed F-16s in the past. Then, we had MMS government which was pro-Russia now we have Modi Government which is Pro-US. US was pressuring India during MMS time. Now Modi himself is keen. so the question of pressurizing India does not arise at all.

well the indian assembled f16 won't come with a warranty pretty sure about that,if dassault has anything to say about it(rafale warranty issue on indian rafales)

Dassault was willing to provide warranty if the partner was Reliance. LM would be able to provide warranty as the partner would be Tata.

With private players, the actual work would be done by OEMs themselves. The Indian partners just there for namesake i.e. to give a name board to comply with the rules. This is not possible with government entities like HAL. Hence Western OEMs do not like to do business with Indian DPSUs. Only Russia is willing to work with Indian DPSUs.

 

[punit]

There are lot of shocking facts of corruption I can share, but I don't want to & definitely not in this forum. The likes of Vijay Mallya is nothing. He is just a very small fish of Aquarium size in a mighty ocean. There are sharks & monsters 10 times the size of whales who have swallowed un imaginable amounts of money. I cannot even discuss or name those corruptions. Some of them are so shocking I can even be picked up, if I talk about it. I am carefully sharing which has already leaked in the media, though it has not come in the main-stream media discussion.

why delay in export of Brahmos missile

Russia already were building Oniks when they inked Brahmos co production. They proposed a modified upgraded version of Oniks for which India could build the air-frame, controls, guidance system, while they will supply the engine and seeker. This so-called co-development has two benefits for Russians:

1) By virtue of manufacturing engine and seeker, Russians dictate the price of Brahmos and it happens to be one of the most expensive purchases for Indian Armed Forces. Both the prices have shot up after development.

2) The features of Brahmos are comparable to Oniks, which is much cheaper. So every time a third country expresses interest in Brahmos, they are offered the Oniks by the Russians. Vietnam & Indonesia both accepted such an offer and now operate Oniks.

Indian armed forces have also placed large orders for Brahmos, which will take a few years to deliver. So they can't deliver Vietnam or Indonesia immediately. So it was just a ploy to pocket some money & develop the missile with our money. Yes no doubt the missile is the deadly best in our stable, but we already have our own indigenous missiles which are of excellent international standards & quality.

It's only now India has woke up, we are almost in the verge of getting a break through in seeker tech. Our own Engines also will be ready in next 2-3 years.

One of the main reason why Russia will mostly, still go ahead with FGFA T50 also with India, is because it cannot buy many of the knock down kits or parts from America, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Israel or west. Same goes with China. If Russia picks India, India has good relations with most western countries, so they can get all the parts for development easily without breaking their heads for developing it. So the development cut shorts their time immensely for developing such technologies. It's multi-fold benefit for Russia, they save time, money & get easy access to sophisticated technology through India, which they can reverse engineer as India procures. So what Russia is doing is using India. They save their money & also pull out our money in the name of development, whereas if we are smart we can procure this & sell it at 10 times the price & make a killing or strike a deal. So this is pure exploitation why they do co- production.

Putin will try all bargains desperately to get the FGFA inked, wait & watch.

Russians sold T 55, T 90's & want to sell their advanced other tanks. Same goes with Tejas - Most of our jets are Russian. If we develop our own tanks & fighters, they not only lose the huge market of India, but also the after sales & servicing or spares business. Normally after buying fighter they hike up the spares prices multi fold. Most countries do this. I am telling you, we would have developed the Tejas MK 3 & exporting it even our AMCA would be flying by now. Russians bribe the Military top officers to reject the fighter. They even find the faults for the officers. This keeps stalling the development & funding. I wouldn't dare to tell this in a forum like this, but I am sharing it because it's leaked & public needs to know, all these types of corruption which happen.

Do your own research, it will save my time & also you will find many other things to learn on your own. I won't share something with my own fantasies, I will post only something which I have read & verified.

but we already have our own indigenous missiles which are of excellent international standards & quality.

REALLY // which one ? nirbhay ?

 

[Centurion2016]

dont be cocky boy.

Why you saying that

The comment is 100% accurate.

The Pakistanis would prefer S fleet of USA block 52. And Euro canards snyvday .

But will need Chinese systems like thunder
For cost reasons

That is accurate assessment

Not cocky

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Don't Worry what Ever India Will but we have F-16's and JF-17 to tackle the threats


PAF Attaining new heights and can tackle any threat PAF Chief

We all gonna hear the same line again and again

To Tackle F-16's PAF can induct J-10 From China it's Comparable to F-16's Block 70 i guess if not superior

 

[SQ8]

Don't Worry what Ever India Will but we have F-16's and JF-17 to tackle the threats


PAF Attaining new heights and can tackle any threat PAF Chief

We all gonna hear the same line again and again

To Tackle F-16's PAF can induct J-10 From China it's Comparable to F-16's Block 70 i guess if not superior

Not even close

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Not even close

In other words the gap between PAF and IAF is gonna increase furthermore??

 

[SQ8]

In other words the gap between PAF and IAF is gonna increase furthermore??

For anything besides total war, the PAF is equipped to the bare minimum and can deal with the IAF(they are facing other seconday and tertiary issues not related to equipment always which one never hears about but are critical to
War fighting )

For anything else, 1 week is the PAF's effective operation capability.

A nation of which only 15% are counted as taxable income people out lf which only 5% of middle class pays tax.. good luck finding money.

 

[ashok321]

So its taking shape after all..

PM Modi's US visit: Officials race against time to seal F-16 deal

WASHINGTON: Officials are working overtime to complete negotiations on moving the assembly line for the F-16 fighter jet to India to enable Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump to jointly make an announcement on the deal.

While there are still too many gaps to be filled, officials are trying to finalise at least the framework before Modi travels to Washington on Saturday. Well-informed sources told ET that the two sides were hammering out details to ensure India was in compliance with US law on proprietary technology.

The information could not be officially confirmed as both sides are keeping a tight lid on the substance of Modi’s visit. US laws governing sale of sophisticated military technology are extremely intricate with overlapping jurisdictions by the Defence, State and Commerce departments.

India too has hesitations about dependence on the US, especially at a time of flux in the international system. The announcement, if it comes when Modi meets Trump on June 26 at the White House, would be a good example of India’s designation by the Obama Administration as a “major defence partner,” especially if the deal is studded with significant transfers of technology.

It would show that “Make in India” and “America First” can meet somewhere in the middle. In 2015, Modi made a surprise announcement while on a visit to France in 2015 to buy 36 “ready to fly” Rafale aircraft after negotiations with Dassault for 126 multi-role, medium-range combat aircraft or MMRCA unraveled.

On Monday, Lockheed Martin announced it had signed a “landmark agreement” with Tata Advanced Systems Limited “affirming the companies intent to join hands to produce the F-16 Block 70 in India,” causing waves of excitement on Twitter.”

The two companies are still working out details but Lockheed is clearly making a big push to win the deal. An Indian official told ET the government is yet to make a decision and Lockheed was taking “a leap ahead” with its announcement.

The signing is in anticipation of the government of India’s decision in Lockheed’s favour and against Sweden’s Saab whose Gripen fighter is in competition to supply the IAF. But the IAF is yet to place an order for the 100 or more single-engine aircraft it needs to replace the MiG-21s.

Although there are many unknowns on the Indian side, Lockheed executives have apparently been working on the Trump Administration with some success. Orlando Carvalho, executive vice president of Lockheed’s aeronautics division, told Defence News at the Paris Air Show that his company had “briefed various members of the administration on the programme” and there is confidence that the Trump Administration would be supportive.

“We haven’t seen any resistance to the programme by the administration” Carvalho was quoted as saying.Trump has emphasised keeping jobs in the US under the “Buy American, Hire American” slogan.

So far, his administration has not said anything about the F-16 line moving to India. The Obama Administration gave both Lockheed Martin and Boeing the green signal last December to build production facilities in India.

It’s unclear at this stage if the US government is willing to part with crucial technology – a key Indian demand. Since the Pakistan also flies the F-16, it’s unclear whether India would exercise control on future orders.

 

[ghazi768]

For anything else, 1 week is the PAF's effective operation capability.

I have read this opinion of yours before as well, may I ask for what reasons do you believe this?