Tata Deal With Lockheed Martin effect on PAF F16 fleet

[SQ8]

I have read this opinion of yours before as well, may I ask for what reasons do you believe this?

1-operational tempo from both sides that will effect spare stocks and fuel

2-anticipated losses to both equipment and infrastructure

3- lack of depth to cover most vital areas of the front in case of loss of forward bases

 

[ghazi768]

1-operational tempo from both sides that will effect spare stocks and fuel

2-anticipated losses to both equipment and infrastructure

3- lack of depth to cover most vital areas of the front in case of loss of forward bases

1. Yes, operational tempo will effect spares and fuel. In short will effect both availability and serviceability but vice versa these will also effect operational tempo. Unless one side is having a drastically different ratios than the other side, the effect should be similar on both sides and both should remain flying albeit with a lower tempo.

2. what anticipated losses? And do you envisage such losses from a surprise attacks or from consistent, repeated attacks?

3. Lack of depth can be an issue no doubt, both for surprise as well as use of long range stand-off weaponry, Israel has a far lower depth than we have. But what fighter platform or weapons will be able to do this either as surprise or in a hot-contested environment. FOBs are not decisive..

 

[SQ8]

1. Yes, operational tempo will effect spares and fuel. In short will effect both availability and serviceability but vice versa these will also effect operational tempo. Unless one side is having a drastically different ratios than the other side, the effect should be similar on both sides and both should remain flying albeit with a lower tempo.

2. what anticipated losses? And do you envisage such losses from a surprise attacks or from consistent, repeated attacks?

3. Lack of depth can be an issue no doubt, both for surprise as well as use of long range stand-off weaponry, Israel has a far lower depth than we have. But what fighter platform or weapons will be able to do this either as surprise or in a hot-contested environment. FOBs are not decisive..

1. Our war stocks are lower than theirs, including a 15-30 day fuel supply (which will take losses) and infrastructure that is closer to the border and more susceptible to losses. Yes, they'll bleed badly as well since we know exactly where to hit them and how but its basic more vs less.

2. Losses in the air, on the ground, losses due to being trapped in wrecked runways/taxiways , personnel losses, demoralization etc
Again, they will also take those hits as they also have more to lose; but all in all they can recover and hide while we cannot.

3. Israel also has utter superiority against any singular enemy in both weapons and electronic warfare capability along with unmatched surveillance.
War is too unpredictable but as even rudimentary simulations will show, it usually boils down to a numbers game

 

[Trisonics]

This deal will have both political and psychological effects on Pakistan. If it goes through, India will have almost secured 2 sources from where it can get it's next gen airplanes. What effect this will have on India's own home grown efforts remains to be seen. I think with India wanting to surge ahead, attitudes have changed. For all the short comings of Tejas, team India continues to strive, learn and re-learn. If it was India a couple of decades ago, the LCA would have been dead. I see big positives.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Pakistan's Future Planes will be J-20 and TFX ..
for Numbers PaF will continue with JF block 3 on-wards ..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Blessing for PAF now finally the folks will wake up from their slumber

We can finally start to see talks for Euro Fighter Typhoon - FINALLY

 

[mikkix]

Pakistan's Future Planes will be J-20 and TFX ..
for Numbers PaF will continue with JF block 3 on-wards ..

and whose gonna pay for that?
We dont have money to buy planes to fill the gaps. Approx 200 million a piece with weapons and J20 is not for export and china will not sell to you and TFX will fail and will be limited to prototypes.
Only chance is J-31 and it will be operation in approx 2025 and you will not get it before 2030.
So what you do in between 2020 to 2030?
Best PAF will do is only fooling us by issuing statements and Best our establishment will do is making peace with India by not interfering in their policies and will try to follow Chinese.

 

[BRAVO_]

I don't have answer to your questions, but on saying that i am really happy with this deal atleast this way PAF will be forced to abandon their love affair with this jet and work towards another model.

bullseye.... you made my point too .... we are watching F-16 since our childhood in PTV songs, news and on every forum, after all these things it was very obvious that our people become brand loyal just like different companies broadcast their advertisements through tv channels and a time come when people consider that specific item the best one and start buying it. therefore it is indeed very good that this love affair has finally coming to an end.... besides that Pakistan is already on its track to avail the 4.5 or 5th generation fighter. further it will help pakistan to determine the better set of avionics for its JF-17 Block 3 keeping in view the enemy capabilities.

 

[YeBeWarned]

and whose gonna pay for that?
We dont have money to buy planes to fill the gaps. Approx 200 million a piece with weapons and J20 is not for export and china will not sell to you and TFX will fail and will be limited to prototypes.
Only chance is J-31 and it will be operation in approx 2025 and you will not get it before 2030.
So what you do in between 2020 to 2030?
Best PAF will do is only fooling us by issuing statements and Best our establishment will do is making peace with India by not interfering in their policies and will try to follow Chinese.

Apke sasur se tu cash nai manga na .. than why you care who will pay ? Don't quote me like a Idiot Indian kid here , J-20 nor TFX will be coming post 2025 , so we have plenty of time to make some Plans to introduce new Generations fighters , F-16 will be retiring by 2030 which means we have 12-13 years to work with TAI for TAF initial order , and for J-20 they wont Hesitate to offer you some nice deal, once CPEC is up and running Pakistan will make good money and Economy will do better .. just like this year we have a significant amount of Increase in Defense Budget, and as far as i know we didn't ask your Daddy and Father in law for that money ..

we are buying stuff like Oplot Tanks , JF-17 , 4 Milgem Class Corvette , one corvette from Belgium i guess, HQ-19 , T-129 ATAK's , AH-Z1 ..

 

[mikkix]

Apke sasur se tu cash nai manga na .. than why you care who will pay ? Don't quote me like a Idiot Indian kid here , J-20 nor TFX will be coming post 2025 , so we have plenty of time to make some Plans to introduce new Generations fighters , F-16 will be retiring by 2030 which means we have 12-13 years to work with TAI for TAF initial order , and for J-20 they wont Hesitate to offer you some nice deal, once CPEC is up and running Pakistan will make good money and Economy will do better .. just like this year we have a significant amount of Increase in Defense Budget, and as far as i know we didn't ask your Daddy and Father in law for that money ..

we are buying stuff like Oplot Tanks , JF-17 , 4 Milgem Class Corvette , one corvette from Belgium i guess, HQ-19 , T-129 ATAK's , AH-Z1 ..

I thought you were here for debate, mene to ye nahi kaha k apke abba jee arrange karenge pese. just one word grow up..
Good bye.

 

[YeBeWarned]

I thought you were here for debate, mene to ye nahi kaha k apke abba jee arrange karenge pese. just one word grow up..
Good bye.

Keep your Indiot Mentality to yourself, we don't need it in our every thread that who will pay for this or pay for that , behn ka jehaz jama ker bhai .. let us do what we have to do with our forces

 

[mikkix]

Keep your Indiot Mentality to yourself, we don't need it in our every thread that who will pay for this or pay for that , behn ka jehaz jama ker bhai .. let us do what we have to do with our forces

I am a proud Pakistani so respect others opinion and face the reality, dont try to be personal otherwise i will report. I know my forces ability strength weakness and limitations. Enjoy your Eid.

 

[ghazi768]

1. Our war stocks are lower than theirs, including a 15-30 day fuel supply (which will take losses) and infrastructure that is closer to the border and more susceptible to losses. Yes, they'll bleed badly as well since we know exactly where to hit them and how but its basic more vs less.

2. Losses in the air, on the ground, losses due to being trapped in wrecked runways/taxiways , personnel losses, demoralization etc
Again, they will also take those hits as they also have more to lose; but all in all they can recover and hide while we cannot.

3. Israel also has utter superiority against any singular enemy in both weapons and electronic warfare capability along with unmatched surveillance.
War is too unpredictable but as even rudimentary simulations will show, it usually boils down to a numbers game

1. fuel reserver I'll not comment on, but they would last for months and certainly more than a week, even in case of embargo or a blockade.
By war stocks if you mean inventory of spare parts than again that is cognisant with use, should last more than a week.

2. Losses on the ground, yes in case they are able to surprise us or they are able to repeatedly launch successful attacks against our airbases especially crucial air bases. But why one week or lets say even two weeks..

About ground losses, we need to temper it with actual lessons for history. The last such successful campaign was by USAF again Iraqi air force in first gulf war. USAF+USN+ allies had lots of advantages and force multipliers over their opponent, for example, they had AEWACS to provide a better situational aware, satellites and lot of other sensors to identify targets as well as identify damage in real time. EW prowess in shape of Raven etc. to completely jam up Iraqi radars, advantage of 4 to 1 in numbers and that with huge qualitative difference as well plus growlers and prowlers to even make radio communications between wingmen a feat. And most importantly, Tomahawks. These were extremely accurate, iraqis had no answer to them and US launched them in hundreds (I think if I am not forgetting or mixing things up more than 800 were launched within initial stages of campaign) against lots of command and communication targets especially related to Iraqi air force as they wanted to neutralise it before moving to other targets, so as to give them a chance to get inside iraqi decision loop. Still with all this what was the tally? 220+ out of more than 900+ aircrafts (all aircrafts not just combat fighters/bombers)

The record of losses in air is actually even more dismal but I'll suffice it to say that chances of a 'turkey shoot' are higher where there are significant difference in technology and tactics as well.

3. About simulations, they are fine but they miss the 'human factor'.

 

[POPEYE-Sailor]

ITS ALL ABOUT DOLLAR $$$$$ Make Pak economy Great. Every one starts offer all type of military equipment ..!!!!! But still our bhutto is alive and Shareef still shareef..!!!!!

 

[ashok321]

Questions Arise as US-India F-16 Deal Seeks to Get Airborne
https://sputniknews.com/military/201706271055008259-us-india-f16-jet/

A lucrative aviation deal between US-India firms to manufacture F-16 fighter jets in the south Asian nation has attracted criticism that old technology is being "dumped."


US defense contractor Lockheed Martin has taken further steps to secure a deal which would relocate the manufacture of F-16 fighter jets to India. News of the multi-billion dollar agreement with Indian industry giant Tata Group came as Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi met with US President Donald Trump in Washington on Monday, June 26.


A press release issued by both firms stated that India will be able to "produce, operate and export the multi fighter F-16 Block 70 aircraft."

The fighter jet will be exclusively built in India, making the south Asian nation the world's sole F-16 manufacturer, and comes as part of Modi's drive and vision to bolster Indian business dubbed "Make in India."

https://twitter.com/x/status/879026494433087488

https://twitter.com/x/status/879026551488204801

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While the deal is awaiting official endorsement — and it faces stiff competition from rival firms including Sweden-based Saab which builds the Gripen fighter — it would phase out India's 200 Russian-made MiGs which currently form the backbone of India's aviation defenses.

Some defense experts have meanwhile slammed the decision stating that the US is off-loading out-of-date aviation technology onto India. Weapons expert Brahma Chellaney on Twitter asked:

Many have also asked if the technologically more sophisticated US-made F-35 fighter jet, which can evade air radar, renders the F-16 jet system old technology.

Speaking exclusively to Sputnik, former F-16 Taiwanese fighter pilot Eric Hsu said:

"Your first option should be the F-35… it's invisible to radar and can avoid 'lock down.' "

Now employed as a civil aviation pilot with Taiwanese flag-carrier China Airlines, Hsu added:

"Airplanes are just a vehicle to extend your weapon and your attack range. If your weapons are more advanced it doesn't matter what airplane you fly."

Hsu, formerly based at the Taiwanese Air Force base in Taitung and a keen member of the island's aircraft community, said that much about technology depended on your opponent's capabilities:

"F-16s are old technology, but who is the enemy? If they are more advanced then it becomes old," Hsu told Sputnik.

The F-35 is part of a new round of "fifth generation fighter jets" which includes Russia's PAK-FA as well as China's Chengdu J-20.

Speaking to Reuters news agency in relation to the potential US-India deal MiG General Director Ilia Tarasenko said that his company had been cooperating with India for more than 50 years, providing planes, service and training centers, and remained upbeat about further sales.

"We are not afraid of rivalry with the US in this market," he stated. "On the contrary, we believe that attempts by other players to establish cooperation with this country help us to better understand their needs and better meet them."

He said MiG's new MiG-35 fighter jet was 20 percent cheaper to operate over its lifespan and offered countries capabilities that went beyond those of regular "fourth-generation" planes.