Tanks of Pakistan Army

[Raja Porus]

Those are Type 85 UG after the modernizations

Why this paint scheme?

 

[iLION12345_1]

Why this paint scheme?

Honestly not sure, it looks rather bizarre. The general camo scheme depends on deployment region though.

Just looks like random squares. But I guess PA is paying for the upgraded performance and not the looks. From the pictures it looks like it isn’t using thermal coating like AK and VT-4, but I’d need a better picture to determine properly.

@PanzerKiel How does the army pick paint schemes? Is there any relevance to this particular one?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Honestly not sure, it looks rather bizarre. The general camo scheme depends on deployment region though.

Just looks like random squares. But I guess PA is paying for the upgraded performance and not the looks. From the pictures it looks like it isn’t using thermal coating like AK and VT-4, but I’d need a better picture to determine properly.
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@PanzerKiel How does the army pick paint schemes? Is there any relevance to this particular one?

Schemes are chosen based on the expected area of operation.... Like semi mountains, plains, semi desert, desert etc.

They might seem a bit odd here, but they actually blend in quite well.... They do make task of enemy tank and ATGM gunners that much difficult... I've done this on ATGM simulators , and it's really difficult to pick up the exact outline of a real tank at 3.5 km range due to its camo.... As a gunner, if you want a first shot hit, then you got to risk the enemy tank come near you... Which can be hazardous....

 

[Jawad-Ali-Khan]

Schemes are chosen based on the expected area of operation.... Like semi mountains, plains, semi desert, desert etc.

They might seem a bit odd here, but they actually blend in quite well.... They do make task of enemy tank and ATGM gunners that much difficult... I've done this on ATGM simulators , and it's really difficult to pick up the exact outline of a real tank at 3.5 km range due to its camo.... As a gunner, if you want a first shot hit, then you got to risk the enemy tank come near you... Which can be hazardous....

Sir, do we have thermal cameras in tanks? That could render camo useless.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir, do we have thermal cameras in tanks? That could render camo useless.

Thermal sights are of course there, but then there are ways to render them ineffective as well, it's all about tactics, technology only doesn't carry the day at the end.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Sir, do we have thermal cameras in tanks? That could render camo useless.

All Modern PA tanks have thermal imagers, very good ones at that. About 2/3rds of the Indian fleet does as well.

But tanks are not the only threat to a tank, there are many threats against which such camo is useful, as PK highlighted, ATGMs are one of them. Not all ATGMs have thermal cameras, similarly infantry and other smaller AT threats will definitely have trouble spotting tanks out at ranges of 2+ KM (which is generally the distances at which tank combat takes place, very rarely do they ever get up close unlike in games and movies).

PS: there are ways to render thermal cameras less useful too, PA already employs them in the form of thermal paint, among other things:

These photos are from 300M and 960M away, now imagine the difference at 2+ KM. Combine that with the generally low silhouette of PA tanks, Camo nets + usage Of foliage on the tank + use of smoke screens + usage of natural cover/concealment and the enemies thermal imagers will be a lot less useful.

 

[Jawad-Ali-Khan]

All Modern PA tanks have thermal imagers, very good ones at that. About 2/3rds of the Indian fleet does as well.

But tanks are not the only threat to a tank, there are many threats against which such camo is useful, as PK highlighted, ATGMs are one of them. Not all ATGMs have thermal cameras, similarly infantry and other smaller AT threats will definitely have trouble spotting tanks out at ranges of 2+ KM (which is generally the distances at which tank combat takes place, very rarely do they ever get up close unlike in games and movies).

PS: there are ways to render thermal cameras less useful too, PA already employs them in the form of thermal paint, among other things:View attachment 764112View attachment 764113View attachment 764114View attachment 764115
These photos are from 300M and 960M away, now imagine the difference at 2+ KM. Combine that with the generally low silhouette of PA tanks, Camo nets + usage Of foliage on the tank + use of smoke screens + usage of natural cover/concealment and the enemies thermal imagers will be a lot less useful.

Sir thank you so much for such a detailed reply! I always enjoy reading your`s, PanzerKiel`s and HRK`s comments. They are loaded with a lot of information for both professionals and layman like me.

Actually I had to study about the INTERMAT Paint and took me a while to reply.

Sir I was thinking what if a tank is painted with INTERMAT and fires at a target; its barrel would still emit a lot of fire and heat which if by chance is picked up by an enemy`s thermal imager would compell the tank commander to change its location after every round fired otherwise it could still become a target? Sorry if that is a stupid question but it just occured in my mind while reading about INTERMAT.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir thank you so much for such a detailed reply! I always enjoy reading your`s, PanzerKiel`s and HRK`s comments. They are loaded with a lot of information for both professionals and layman like me.

Actually I had to study about the INTERMAT Paint and took me a while to reply.

Sir I was thinking what if a tank is painted with INTERMAT and fires at a target; its barrel would still emit a lot of fire and heat which if by chance is picked up by an enemy`s thermal imager would compell the tank commander to change its location after every round fired otherwise it could still become a target? Sorry if that is stupid question but it just occured in my mind while reading about INTERMAT.

That's where the mobility of the tank, and its ability to fire accurately while on the move comes in. A stationary tank is a gone tank.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[iLION12345_1]

Sir thank you so much for such a detailed reply! I always enjoy reading your`s, PanzerKiel`s and HRK`s comments. They are loaded with a lot of information for both professionals and layman like me.

Actually I had to study about the INTERMAT Paint and took me a while to reply.

Sir I was thinking what if a tank is painted with INTERMAT and fires at a target; its barrel would still emit a lot of fire and heat which if by chance is picked up by an enemy`s thermal imager would compell the tank commander to change its location after every round fired otherwise it could still become a target? Sorry if that is stupid question but it just occured in my mind while reading about INTERMAT.

Not a stupid question at all, the forum is a place to learn, it’s good to ask.

Sir PK has already answered for me;

Mobility is part of a tanks protection, very rarely would you stay in place in a tank after firing a shot because now everyone knows you’re there. You become a very easy Target. Tanks are always on the move during an active firefight, tank drivers aren’t just trained to drive, they’re trained to use their environment in the best way possible to keep the tank alive and hard to hit, that’s why better mobility is very important.

Modern tanks also have very advanced fire control systems and stabilization systems, Al-Khalid and VT-4 take it a step further by having auto-tracking systems, all the gunner needs to do is pick a target and the tank will automatically follow it no matter where the enemy or the tank itself goes, the computer can do this more accurately than a human.

Even if for some hypothetical reason you wanted to stay static after firing, the use of thermal coating + Foliage (bushes, plants, grass etc put on the tank and the barrel) and a concealed firing position (Tanks like Al-Khalid have self entrenching tools on them with which they can literally make natural cover for themselves using the ground around them) will give you a bit of an advantage, not that the sound of a 125MM cannot going off won’t give you away anyways

 

[SQ8]

@PanzerKiel The soviets had experimented putting an Igla or strela dual canister on top of their T-80Us. I suppose either due to the increase in profile or maybe the gimbals never quite working out I don’t think deployed it operationally but was something ever thought along these lines on PA’s end? Let the tanks defend themselves in lack of cover from gunships and their ilk?

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel The soviets had experimented putting an Igla or strela dual canister on top of their T-80Us. I suppose either due to the increase in profile or maybe the gimbals never quite working out I don’t think deployed it operationally but was something ever thought along these lines on PA’s end? Let the tanks defend themselves in lack of cover from gunships and their ilk?

Almost a dozen M113s form part of every armored regiment.... We already have M113s fitted with FN6, RBS70 and other shoulder fired SAMs ..... They accompany the tanks everywhere.

 

[Raja Porus]

@PanzerKiel The soviets had experimented putting an Igla or strela dual canister on top of their T-80Us. I suppose either due to the increase in profile or maybe the gimbals never quite working out I don’t think deployed it operationally but was something ever thought along these lines on PA’s end? Let the tanks defend themselves in lack of cover from gunships and their ilk?

Embedded MANPADs.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Almost a dozen M113s form part of every armored regiment.... We already have M113s fitted with FN6, RBS70 and other shoulder fired SAMs ..... They accompany the tanks everywhere.

A part of me thinks that's too much info maybe on an open source platform sir? Maybe?

 

[Raja Porus]

A part of me thinks that's too much info maybe on an open source platform sir? Maybe?

Nopes.
You can get much more info from 23rd March parade,if you have a keen eye.