NG Missile Vessels
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The Talwar class of frigates came in at a time when India was still facing ship building constraints after the success of Delhi class under Project 15 and Godavari + Brahmaputra classes under Project 16. The line of ships are still in construction as 4 more Talwar Batch 3 frigates are currently being completed in Russia and India. But one thing to remember that while the Type 054AP is the best naval vessel in Pakistani service, the Talwar is tier 4, soon to be tier 5 ship of the Indian Navy due to arrival of Nilgiri class(P-17A). By tier I mean classes organized in the order of capability from best to least capable.
Tier 1: Vishakhapatnam class(P-15B) + Kolkata class(P-15A)
Tier 2: Delhi class(P-15)
Tier 3: Shivalik class
Tier 4: Talwar class
Hence the results of this comparison are only applicable if a single Tughril comes across a single Talwar class frigate in open waters with no drone or air cover from both sides. Given India’s BrahMos supremacy and MQ-9 fleet coming in, seems unlikely.
The Type 054A started lineage with the Type 054 frigate which was designed for low intensity conflicts or peace time operations. The 054A is an EXCELLENT light frigate given today’s destroyer sized frigate syndrome. The 054A has great allround capabilities from a decent SAM to decent VDS to a decent AShM. She also has an ASROC that she can fire from her VLS to hunt submarines far away. The Pakistani Navy bought 4 of these frigates to address its growing gap in capability with the Indian Navy. These are part of a larger Pakistani Navy modernization push to get modern air defense systems into the navy. The currently ordered ships are coming with decent HQ-16 which is a Chinese copy of the Shtil-VLS system and CAMM-ER.
Now I think it is necessary to estabhlish a Talwar baseline for comparisons.
Batch 1
Batch 2 feature the Indian UVLM VLS which can deploy BrahMos and soon Nirbhay + SMART but have Ak-630 CIWS. They also have the 3S90 single arm Shtil-1 launcher.
Batch 3 will feature the Indian UVLM VLS + Ak 630 but also Shtil VLS like Admiral Grigorovich class of frigates
Hence for this comparison, I am going to compare Type 054AP to Batch 2 and Batch 3 as the Indian Navy is trying to homologate all Batch 1s to the Batch 2 spec [ref]. The comparison will be done on 4 levels
â—ŹRadars
â—ŹAnti-surface warfare weapons
â—ŹAnti-submarine warfare sensors + weapons
â—ŹAnti-air warfare weapons
Radars
Type 054AP / Tughril class
The Tughril departs from Type 054A that the Chinese have produced in massive numbers here. The main radar is not the Type 382, a copy of the Fregat M2EM also called Top Plate but SR2410C [Red]. The SR2410C is an AESA radar with a max detection range of 250 km but operates in the S-Band. But remember, this radar is analogus to the western Smart-S which by manufacturers own admission is designed for corvettes and light frigates [ref]. This radar is a tier lower in performance versus the Top Plate which has a max detection range of over 300km. The likely reason for going with a corvette spec radar is cost savings. Given that the Chinese have stuck to their Top Plate on Type 054As built after the Tughrils, it shows that the Chinese, the makers of this radar regard Top Plate more than the SR2410C.
The second radar on board is Type 517 A-band radar. Now A-band radars are used primarily for detection and not targetting. They need massive antennae for accurate fix on targets at long ranges. Hence these usually work as searchers for other radars onboard to look and target. It has an impressive 330 km range but as I said, not as good for direct targetting. It is also a 2D search radar meaning it gives target bearing and distance but not altitude. The Type 517 is also older as the Chinese have already moved on to Type 518 on Type 052D destroyers, seems like a cost saving measure again.
Interestingly, the Tughril has Type 366 radar ,a copy of the Russian Mineral ME. It is best used for over the horizon passive detection and is a great sensor to have on your ship. It can be used for 400-450km passive detection and 200-250km active detection. By passive I mean, listening for other’s emissions and active means emitting themselves. Its dated though, based on 1990s tech.
Talwar class
The Talwar class comes standard with Top Plate or Fregat M2EM, excellent radar platform for frigates and destroyers. Heck, even upgraded Slava class cruisers use these as a 360 degree radar. It can operate in D and E band with a maximum detection range of 300 km. The Talwar also has a second radar, Pozitiv ME1.2 with a range of 80 km. It is a corvette spec X-band radar which is the same band used by fighter aircraft due to its accuracy. Here, it serves as a backup to the much more capable Top Plate. Both radars are 3D search and can provide targetting solutions to onboard missiles.
The Talwar class were built with 3Ts-25E Garpun radar which is a rough equivalent of the Mineral ME and can do over the horizon detection passive detection or active detection. It can do 500km passive detection and 250 km active. The Indian Navy has replaced this with Scanter 6002 surface search radar which is a far newer platform, resistant to jam and has active detection range of 177 km.
To summarize, the Tughril has corvette/light frigate spec radar as its primary sensor and its secondary radar is a 2D search radar not suitable for targetting solutions. Hence the primary sensors on Talwars are superior and while its secondary radar is weaker, it can use both independently. A Tughril will need both radars in conjunction to get a firing solution. Hence Talwar wins here.
Anti-Surface Warfare
The Tughrils sport 4 CM302/YJ-12 anti-ship missiles versus the 8 YJ-83s seen on vanilla Type 054A. This again seems to be a cost saving measure by reducing the number of anti-ship missiles carried. The YJ-12 though is bang for its buck, supersonic, 300 km export ranged anti-ship missile. This means, that the Indian Navy Barak 8s finally have a worthy competitor in the region.
Talwar class Batch 1, 2 and 3 carry BrahMos anti-ship missile and in the future Nirbhay plus SMART. Even when it comes to BrahMos, it is the 2nd best anti-ship cruise missile in the world today behind Zircon. It has a 500 km range, with developments in the pipeline to take that to 800 km range. Also Talwar carries 8 BrahMos in the UVLM placed on the bow. Talwar wins here hands down.
Talwar carries 2x the anti-surface warfare missiles as Tughril, it out ranges YJ-12 and is domestically developed and made. Talwar wins here hands down.
Anti-Submarine Warfare sensors + weapons
Both ships have bow mounted sonars though the Type 054AP has 6x 324 mm torpedo tubes vs 4x 533mm tubes on Talwar. Both ships should theoretically be able to carry ASROC missiles. The HQ-16 VLS can launch Yu-8 ASROC or anti-sub rocket that carries a light torpedo, but it is not confirmed if the Pakistanis have bought these.. The Indians have SMART which might also see service on the Indian Talwar class. Whats interesting is that that the Talwar class is getting Variable Depth Sonars which the Tughrils lack. It is possible that they might have simple Towed Sonar Arrays but it hasnt been confirmed as well. Both vessels also have a type of anti-sub mortar. The Tughrils have Type 87 sub mortars and Talwars have RBU-6000. These systems have limited use except when the subs or frogmen are very close. To summarize.
Talwar class frigate with Atlas Elektronik VDS.
1.VDS equipped Talwar will be a better ASW platform than a hypothetical-Tughril with regular TAS.
2.Since the roll out of VDS has been slow, until all ships get VDS, a hypothetical-Tughril with TAS will be superior to a non-VDS Talwar.
3.If the Tughril lacks a TAS (most likely), both ships will be matched in capability until Talwar gets a VDS, after which it will be superior.
Anti-Air Warfare
The Tughril is plain and simple superior here. The Talwar has 24 missiles in a 3S90 single arm launching Shtil-1 system. This system has inferior rate of fire which is not suitable for engaging mass / saturation attacks. The Tughril has 32 HQ-16 split across 4x 8 cell modules. HQ-16 is a copy of the Shtil VLS. Though both systems have a range of 50-60 km, the Chinese HQ-16 is plain superior at engaging multiple targets. This was Talwar Batch 2 though. Talwar Batch 3 will feature Shtil VLS but only with 24 missiles as seen on Admiral Grigorovich. In Batch 3’s case again, Tughril wins but by a smaller margin as it has more missiles ready to go.
The CIWS department goes in favor of the Tughril as well due to its dual Type 1130 CIWS which can operate independently if given power and ammo like the Phalanx. Ak-630 on Indian Talwar class need external sensors for cueing and is not an independent CIWS.
HQ-16 battery fore of the super structure.
To summarize, the Talwar scores points in anti-surface warfare and radar departments whereas Tughril steals the anti-air warfare department. Anti-sub warfare section is in flux due to lack of open source info on TAS on Tughril and VDS installation timeline on Talwars. Overall, both frigates are extremely capable platforms and no uniformed personnel from both sides worth their uniform will writeoff either. Hence, while on paper Talwar is superior in offense and Tughrils are better defensively, we also need to consider navy structures, tactics and trainings. Both vessels can win based on how they are employed and not just on the basis of on paper specs or this comparison.
battlemachines.org
@Dalit @Areesh @beijingwalker @Abu Shaleh Rumi
Tier 1: Vishakhapatnam class(P-15B) + Kolkata class(P-15A)
Tier 2: Delhi class(P-15)
Tier 3: Shivalik class
Tier 4: Talwar class
Hence the results of this comparison are only applicable if a single Tughril comes across a single Talwar class frigate in open waters with no drone or air cover from both sides. Given India’s BrahMos supremacy and MQ-9 fleet coming in, seems unlikely.
The Type 054A started lineage with the Type 054 frigate which was designed for low intensity conflicts or peace time operations. The 054A is an EXCELLENT light frigate given today’s destroyer sized frigate syndrome. The 054A has great allround capabilities from a decent SAM to decent VDS to a decent AShM. She also has an ASROC that she can fire from her VLS to hunt submarines far away. The Pakistani Navy bought 4 of these frigates to address its growing gap in capability with the Indian Navy. These are part of a larger Pakistani Navy modernization push to get modern air defense systems into the navy. The currently ordered ships are coming with decent HQ-16 which is a Chinese copy of the Shtil-VLS system and CAMM-ER.
Now I think it is necessary to estabhlish a Talwar baseline for comparisons.
Batch 1
Batch 2 feature the Indian UVLM VLS which can deploy BrahMos and soon Nirbhay + SMART but have Ak-630 CIWS. They also have the 3S90 single arm Shtil-1 launcher.
Batch 3 will feature the Indian UVLM VLS + Ak 630 but also Shtil VLS like Admiral Grigorovich class of frigates
Hence for this comparison, I am going to compare Type 054AP to Batch 2 and Batch 3 as the Indian Navy is trying to homologate all Batch 1s to the Batch 2 spec [ref]. The comparison will be done on 4 levels
â—ŹRadars
â—ŹAnti-surface warfare weapons
â—ŹAnti-submarine warfare sensors + weapons
â—ŹAnti-air warfare weapons
Radars
Type 054AP / Tughril class
The Tughril departs from Type 054A that the Chinese have produced in massive numbers here. The main radar is not the Type 382, a copy of the Fregat M2EM also called Top Plate but SR2410C [Red]. The SR2410C is an AESA radar with a max detection range of 250 km but operates in the S-Band. But remember, this radar is analogus to the western Smart-S which by manufacturers own admission is designed for corvettes and light frigates [ref]. This radar is a tier lower in performance versus the Top Plate which has a max detection range of over 300km. The likely reason for going with a corvette spec radar is cost savings. Given that the Chinese have stuck to their Top Plate on Type 054As built after the Tughrils, it shows that the Chinese, the makers of this radar regard Top Plate more than the SR2410C.
The second radar on board is Type 517 A-band radar. Now A-band radars are used primarily for detection and not targetting. They need massive antennae for accurate fix on targets at long ranges. Hence these usually work as searchers for other radars onboard to look and target. It has an impressive 330 km range but as I said, not as good for direct targetting. It is also a 2D search radar meaning it gives target bearing and distance but not altitude. The Type 517 is also older as the Chinese have already moved on to Type 518 on Type 052D destroyers, seems like a cost saving measure again.
Interestingly, the Tughril has Type 366 radar ,a copy of the Russian Mineral ME. It is best used for over the horizon passive detection and is a great sensor to have on your ship. It can be used for 400-450km passive detection and 200-250km active detection. By passive I mean, listening for other’s emissions and active means emitting themselves. Its dated though, based on 1990s tech.
Talwar class
The Talwar class comes standard with Top Plate or Fregat M2EM, excellent radar platform for frigates and destroyers. Heck, even upgraded Slava class cruisers use these as a 360 degree radar. It can operate in D and E band with a maximum detection range of 300 km. The Talwar also has a second radar, Pozitiv ME1.2 with a range of 80 km. It is a corvette spec X-band radar which is the same band used by fighter aircraft due to its accuracy. Here, it serves as a backup to the much more capable Top Plate. Both radars are 3D search and can provide targetting solutions to onboard missiles.
The Talwar class were built with 3Ts-25E Garpun radar which is a rough equivalent of the Mineral ME and can do over the horizon detection passive detection or active detection. It can do 500km passive detection and 250 km active. The Indian Navy has replaced this with Scanter 6002 surface search radar which is a far newer platform, resistant to jam and has active detection range of 177 km.
To summarize, the Tughril has corvette/light frigate spec radar as its primary sensor and its secondary radar is a 2D search radar not suitable for targetting solutions. Hence the primary sensors on Talwars are superior and while its secondary radar is weaker, it can use both independently. A Tughril will need both radars in conjunction to get a firing solution. Hence Talwar wins here.
Anti-Surface Warfare
The Tughrils sport 4 CM302/YJ-12 anti-ship missiles versus the 8 YJ-83s seen on vanilla Type 054A. This again seems to be a cost saving measure by reducing the number of anti-ship missiles carried. The YJ-12 though is bang for its buck, supersonic, 300 km export ranged anti-ship missile. This means, that the Indian Navy Barak 8s finally have a worthy competitor in the region.
Talwar class Batch 1, 2 and 3 carry BrahMos anti-ship missile and in the future Nirbhay plus SMART. Even when it comes to BrahMos, it is the 2nd best anti-ship cruise missile in the world today behind Zircon. It has a 500 km range, with developments in the pipeline to take that to 800 km range. Also Talwar carries 8 BrahMos in the UVLM placed on the bow. Talwar wins here hands down.
Talwar carries 2x the anti-surface warfare missiles as Tughril, it out ranges YJ-12 and is domestically developed and made. Talwar wins here hands down.
Anti-Submarine Warfare sensors + weapons
Both ships have bow mounted sonars though the Type 054AP has 6x 324 mm torpedo tubes vs 4x 533mm tubes on Talwar. Both ships should theoretically be able to carry ASROC missiles. The HQ-16 VLS can launch Yu-8 ASROC or anti-sub rocket that carries a light torpedo, but it is not confirmed if the Pakistanis have bought these.. The Indians have SMART which might also see service on the Indian Talwar class. Whats interesting is that that the Talwar class is getting Variable Depth Sonars which the Tughrils lack. It is possible that they might have simple Towed Sonar Arrays but it hasnt been confirmed as well. Both vessels also have a type of anti-sub mortar. The Tughrils have Type 87 sub mortars and Talwars have RBU-6000. These systems have limited use except when the subs or frogmen are very close. To summarize.
Talwar class frigate with Atlas Elektronik VDS.
1.VDS equipped Talwar will be a better ASW platform than a hypothetical-Tughril with regular TAS.
2.Since the roll out of VDS has been slow, until all ships get VDS, a hypothetical-Tughril with TAS will be superior to a non-VDS Talwar.
3.If the Tughril lacks a TAS (most likely), both ships will be matched in capability until Talwar gets a VDS, after which it will be superior.
Anti-Air Warfare
The Tughril is plain and simple superior here. The Talwar has 24 missiles in a 3S90 single arm launching Shtil-1 system. This system has inferior rate of fire which is not suitable for engaging mass / saturation attacks. The Tughril has 32 HQ-16 split across 4x 8 cell modules. HQ-16 is a copy of the Shtil VLS. Though both systems have a range of 50-60 km, the Chinese HQ-16 is plain superior at engaging multiple targets. This was Talwar Batch 2 though. Talwar Batch 3 will feature Shtil VLS but only with 24 missiles as seen on Admiral Grigorovich. In Batch 3’s case again, Tughril wins but by a smaller margin as it has more missiles ready to go.
The CIWS department goes in favor of the Tughril as well due to its dual Type 1130 CIWS which can operate independently if given power and ammo like the Phalanx. Ak-630 on Indian Talwar class need external sensors for cueing and is not an independent CIWS.
HQ-16 battery fore of the super structure.
To summarize, the Talwar scores points in anti-surface warfare and radar departments whereas Tughril steals the anti-air warfare department. Anti-sub warfare section is in flux due to lack of open source info on TAS on Tughril and VDS installation timeline on Talwars. Overall, both frigates are extremely capable platforms and no uniformed personnel from both sides worth their uniform will writeoff either. Hence, while on paper Talwar is superior in offense and Tughrils are better defensively, we also need to consider navy structures, tactics and trainings. Both vessels can win based on how they are employed and not just on the basis of on paper specs or this comparison.
Talwar class vs Tughril class or Type 054AP: Sub-Continent Frigate Faceoff
The Talwar class of frigates came in at a time when India was still facing ship building constraints after the success of Delhi class under Project 15 and Godavari + Brahmaputra classes under Proje…
battlemachines.org
@Dalit @Areesh @beijingwalker @Abu Shaleh Rumi
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