Talks on Indus waters in Delhi next week between Pakistan and India

[Chhatrapati]

Lol at the Indian posts about scrapping the treaty and taking more water (beyond the agreement). Go right ahead, as a lower riparian state China can end the living of 800 million Indians if you decide to play water wars.
Modi ain't stupid, the last time he hinted vaugly at this the Chinese sent words through diplomatic channels at what they would do. Of course he $hit himself and hasn't spoken like this since.

Chinese influence is greatly overblown in your comment (and in general) not to mention their capability to build dams for hundreds of small streams or your hope that China would do your bidding. Most rivers in India are monsoon fed or from glaciers inside India. Even the Brahmaputra is mostly fed by rainfall and other rivers inside Indian territory.

Indus water treaty is one of the most generous water sharing agreement in the world, the hopes of our stupid leaders at the time was if Pakistan's water security issue is met there will be long standing peace.

 

[waz]

Chinese influence is greatly overblown in your comment (and in general) not to mention their capability to build dams for hundreds of small streams or your hope that China would do your bidding. Most rivers in India are monsoon fed or from glaciers inside India. Even the Brahmaputra is mostly fed by rainfall and other rivers inside Indian territory.

Indus water treaty is one of the most generous water sharing agreement in the world, the hopes of our stupid leaders at the time was if Pakistan's water security issue is met there will be long standing peace.

Rubbish that has been debunked over and over again.



The Chinese can build faster than you can imagine, it's just you hoping they won't. Look at this;



Zangmu power station
Lalho hydroelectric project
Shuang Jiang Kou dam
The Longtan hydropower station in Nanning

Hydropower is the centrepiece of China’s renewable energy strategy which it plans to rapidly expand by 2020.

China is upscaling its dam building momentum, with many new megadam hydropower plants underway and proposed for the Nu (Salween), Lancang (Upper Mekong), Jinsha (Upper Yangtze), and the YarlungTsangpo (which becomes the Brahmaputra). In just over a decade more hydropower plants have been installed in China than the rest of the world combined. With 87,000 dams, China now has more than any other country in the world, with twothirds of these located on the Tibetan Plateau

https://tibetnature.net/en/great-walls-damming-tibet/



Pakistan and China share the closest of strategic relationships, how do you think it's going to go down that you are engaging in water wars with the leverage you have. Also this actually did happen, and the response was given to your government.
The monsoons are erratic and can't be relied on anymore.

Erratic Monsoon Haunts India; 33% Rainfall Deficit in June

India’s monsoon rainfall has become increasingly irregular, say experts. While many blame global warming for the increasing variability, other factors like urbanisation and pollution have also affected rainfall patterns. Look at all the things that happened in June: a cyclone in the Arabian Sea threatened to devastate coastal Gujarat; the monsoons stalled twice; temperatures hit the highest-ever level of 50°C in Churu, Rajasthan; the rainfall deficit in places like Vidarbha and Marathwada touched 80% in the middle of the month, and water-scarce Chennai got hit by a sudden deluge!

According to the India Meteorological Department (IMD), the rainfall deficit in June has accumulated to 33% at the end of the month. As per the IMD’s records, with overall rainfall of 112.1 mm, this is the fifth driest June for India in the past 100 years. Only four times in the last century has June rainfall been less than this—in 2009 (85.7mm), 2014 (95.4), 1926 (98.7mm) and 1923 (102mm)—reports The Times of India.


Thirty of 36 meteorological subdivisions across India have reported deficient rainfall. Two subdivisions (west Uttar Pradesh and Haryana-Delhi) faced a large deficiency of over 60%.

https://weather.com/en-IN/india/mon...monsoon-haunts-india-33-rainfall-deficit-june

The average rainfall for every region of India is deficient, according to the India Meteorological Department (IMD).

Measuring from June 1, the overall deficit is 16 percent. Maybe more tellingly, 56 percent of the land area of India is short of the expected fall for this point in an "average" season.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...ng-erratic-season-weaker-190728105734941.html

There's actually a great deal on this, and I'm not surprised you wrote the whole "monsoon rains will save India" without even knowing how badly they have been affected in recent years.....

Also India's main rivers are fed by glacier water from Tibet!

Tibetan glaciers contribute to Indian river systems, and it is very substantial. Thank you to the academics (UK) for showing me this.

Here's one such research paper on the Brahmaputra;

https://tc.copernicus.org/preprints/tc-2019-211/tc-2019-211.pdf

the sustainable supply of GS melt, which is susceptible to climate change, is the key to the local freshwater security, flood prevention and control, and hydroelectric development

The GS melt serves as an essential water supplier for the Brahmaputra river system


Folks I've already argued these stupid points the Indian posters keep on raising like broken records i.e. we can mess with Pakistan's water, the monsoons can save us, internal fed waters drive Indian rivers, so need for anything else. It's all nonsense.
I actually asked UCL professors a short while ago about this topic, as there was so many discussions and I wanted to get down to the facts i.e. can India block Pakistan's water, what can China do etc.
Please see this thread.

WB says cannot mediate in Pakistan-India water dispute

WB says cannot mediate in Pakistan-India water dispute Khaleeq KianiUpdated 08 Aug 2020 Facebook Count Twitter Share 79 Islamabad seeks a court of arbitration while Delhi wants a neutral expert. — Kohi Marri/File ISLAMABAD: The World Bank has expressed its inability to take an independent...

defence.pk

 

[alee92nawaz]

I firmly believe that we should use at least 40% of Indus river system waters as this generosity of ours is affecting the farmers of states of J&k and Punjab adversely.

What generosity u dumb ***? Rivers don't even flow through or towards mainland india

 

[Chhatrapati]

Rubbish that has been debunked over and over again.



The Chinese can build faster than you can imagine, it's just you hoping they won't. Look at this;

Probaby you refuse to believe what's in front of your eyes. You missed the point or selectively misquoting, what I meant is Chinese are not going to do a dam building spree from small streams. And you don't understand the geography of the region clearly.

Also India's main rivers are fed by glacier water from Tibet!

Yeah, from the map, the main rivers I see are Brahmaputra, Indus, Sutlej, what is China going to do? Move the Himlayan glaciers?

The GS melt serves as an essential water supplier for the Brahmaputra river system

According to the Food and Agriculture Organisation's AQUASAT survey of 2011, the annual flow of the Brahmaputra basin from China to India is 165 cubic kilometre, but from India to Bangladesh the flow is 537 cu km. Bhutan alone discharges 78 cu km - half of China's amount - into the river.

According to another study, although 50% of the Brahmaputra basin is in China, it generates just about 22% of the annual water discharge of the river because of the dry weather there. India accounts for 34% of its basin area but contributes 39% of the total discharge. Bhutan covers 6.7% of basin but 21% of the discharge, almost the same as China.

This is why most experts dismiss the fear that China will someday choke the Brahmaputra water supply to India. "There is no question of the Chinese controlling the water flow in the Brahmaputra since most of the water comes from Indian tributaries, that is the monsoon rainfall. The water flow issue is quite overstated and a result of ignorance and prejudice acting together,"

In a recent paper, Hongzhou Zhang of the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies at the Nanyang Technological University, Singapore, argues that the river diversion project is "highly unlikely" because of the engineering and economic costs.

Believe whatever you want, so many scare mongering studies and catch phrases of some rando without understanding feasibility of such projects, not to mention people like you who jump into the band wagon thinking China is going to be the knight in shining armour of Pakistan, if India stops water for Pakistan, China will stop water for India. At least people should know these are not taps that can be closed and opened as someone wish. We are talking about billions of dollars just to stop water flow to an enemy country with no tangible benefits.


As for rainfall data of some "unknown year"


India received a total of 95.8 cm of rainfall this monsoon, the third highest ever recorded, according to data released by the Ministry of Earth Sciences Thursday.

The India Meteorological Department (IMD) had predicted in May that the rainfall this year would be 102 per cent of the Long Period Average (LPA) — the average rainfall received in the monsoon season between 1961-2010, which is 88.0 cm. But actually, the rainfall recorded this monsoon was 109 per cent of the LPA.


August was also the wettest it has been in 44 years, receiving 127 per cent of average rainfall, the fourth highest in 120 years.

India received third-highest rainfall on record this year, August was wettest in 44 years

The country received 109% of the Long Period Average rainfall this monsoon, making it the wettest on record after 1994 and 2019.

theprint.in

 

[waz]

Probaby you refuse to believe what's in front of your eyes. You missed the point or selectively misquoting, what I meant is Chinese are not going to do a dam building spree from small streams. And you don't understand the geography of the region clearly.

They already have been on a spree, you need to read more.

Yeah, from the map, the main rivers I see are Brahmaputra, Indus, Sutlej, what is China going to do? Move the Himlayan glaciers?

No just dry out your rivers. You also forgot the Ganga, the heart of India. Tributaries which feed the Ganga massively rely on Chinese water.

According to the Food and Agriculture Organisation's AQUASAT survey of 2011, the annual flow of the Brahmaputra basin from China to India is 165 cubic kilometre, but from India to Bangladesh the flow is 537 cu km. Bhutan alone discharges 78 cu km - half of China's amount - into the river.

According to another study, although 50% of the Brahmaputra basin is in China, it generates just about 22% of the annual water discharge of the river because of the dry weather there. India accounts for 34% of its basin area but contributes 39% of the total discharge. Bhutan covers 6.7% of basin but 21% of the discharge, almost the same as China.

This is why most experts dismiss the fear that China will someday choke the Brahmaputra water supply to India. "There is no question of the Chinese controlling the water flow in the Brahmaputra since most of the water comes from Indian tributaries, that is the monsoon rainfall. The water flow issue is quite overstated and a result of ignorance and prejudice acting together,"

In a recent paper, Hongzhou Zhang of the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies at the Nanyang Technological University, Singapore, argues that the river diversion project is "highly unlikely" because of the engineering and economic costs.

Believe whatever you want, so many scare mongering studies and catch phrases of some rando without understanding feasibility of such projects, not to mention people like you who jump into the band wagon thinking China is going to be the knight in shining armour of Pakistan, if India stops water for Pakistan, China will stop water for India. At least people should know these are not taps that can be closed and opened as someone wish. We are talking about billions of dollars just to stop water flow to an enemy country with no tangible benefits.

Yes I already anticipated you will go down the Bangladesh route. It won't matter, as you started it, and that's what the Chinese will point out.
Also stop playing the noble one here, you're the one advocating wars, I'm showing what will happen.

As for rainfall data of some "unknown year"


India received a total of 95.8 cm of rainfall this monsoon, the third highest ever recorded, according to data released by the Ministry of Earth Sciences Thursday.

The India Meteorological Department (IMD) had predicted in May that the rainfall this year would be 102 per cent of the Long Period Average (LPA) — the average rainfall received in the monsoon season between 1961-2010, which is 88.0 cm. But actually, the rainfall recorded this monsoon was 109 per cent of the LPA.


August was also the wettest it has been in 44 years, receiving 127 per cent of average rainfall, the fourth highest in 120 years.

India received third-highest rainfall on record this year, August was wettest in 44 years

The country received 109% of the Long Period Average rainfall this monsoon, making it the wettest on record after 1994 and 2019.

theprint.in

I already expected this.
Let's have a more careful look at the data.

You need to look at patterns, which you don't understand.

Parts of India are facing a severe impact of the climate crisis with reduced rainfall and increase in dry, or no rain, and heavy rain days during the monsoon season, an India Meteorological Department (IMD) study on changes in monsoon patterns over 30 years has found.

The study, which was released on Monday, found there were “significant decreasing trends” in the south-west monsoon from 1989 to 2018 in the Ganga basin states like Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal, which are known to have among the most fertile lands in the country.

Guhathakurta said there is multi-decadal variability. “For example, 1940 to 1970 was a wet period for us and now we are in a dry period. But there is a clear imprint of climate change on monsoon which is something that farmers have been trying to deal with. The Ganga basin is recording a significant increase in dry days.”

“Further, in view of ongoing climate changes, there have been significant changes in the mean rainfall pattern and their variability exclusively in terms of the intensity and frequencies of heavy rainfall events.”

Study links climate crisis to changes in monsoon patterns over last 30 years

New Delhi: Parts of India are facing a severe impact of the climate crisis with reduced rainfall and increase in dry, or no rain, and heavy rain days during the

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[arjunk]

Screw ups by Nehru continue to plague India even after 60 years of his death, most notably this IWT and Kashmir UN resolution.

Indians always blame Pakistan, and if blaming Pakistan is too embarrassing then they blame Nerhu. If not Nehru they blame the Mughal or British empire from 300 years ago.
I will be amazed if Modi is stupid enough to violate the IWT. It is such a serious treaty that even in wartime it has not been violated. If Modi violates IWT it will surely be the end of India.

 

[Gangetic]

They already have been on a spree, you need to read more.




No just dry out your rivers. You also forgot the Ganga, the heart of India. Tributaries which feed the Ganga massively rely on Chinese water.




Yes I already anticipated you will go down the Bangladesh route. It won't matter, as you started it, and that's what the Chinese will point out.
Also stop playing the noble one here, you're the one advocating wars, I'm showing what will happen.






I already expected this.
Let's have a more careful look at the data.

You need to look at patterns, which you don't understand.

Parts of India are facing a severe impact of the climate crisis with reduced rainfall and increase in dry, or no rain, and heavy rain days during the monsoon season, an India Meteorological Department (IMD) study on changes in monsoon patterns over 30 years has found.

The study, which was released on Monday, found there were “significant decreasing trends” in the south-west monsoon from 1989 to 2018 in the Ganga basin states like Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal, which are known to have among the most fertile lands in the country.

Guhathakurta said there is multi-decadal variability. “For example, 1940 to 1970 was a wet period for us and now we are in a dry period. But there is a clear imprint of climate change on monsoon which is something that farmers have been trying to deal with. The Ganga basin is recording a significant increase in dry days.”

“Further, in view of ongoing climate changes, there have been significant changes in the mean rainfall pattern and their variability exclusively in terms of the intensity and frequencies of heavy rainfall events.”

Study links climate crisis to changes in monsoon patterns over last 30 years

New Delhi: Parts of India are facing a severe impact of the climate crisis with reduced rainfall and increase in dry, or no rain, and heavy rain days during the

www.hindustantimes.com

Do you know how much of the Indus and its tributaries depend on glaciers in Gilgit Baltistan?

 

[waz]

Do you know how much of the Indus and its tributaries depend on glaciers in Gilgit Baltistan?

Overall the estimate is 40% or more for all glaciers.


Where they estimate >40% of total runoff comes from melting glaciers

Most of the glaciers below 5000 m.a.s.l. are in the Hindu Kush and Karakoram in the northwest of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and some are located at lower elevations and northern aspects of the High Himalaya in India

Sensitivity of glacier runoff projections to baseline climate data in the Indus River basin

Quantifying the contribution of glacier runoff to water resources is particularly important in regions such as High Mountain Asia, where glaciers provide a large percentage of seasonal river discharge and support large populations downstream. In remote areas, direct field measurements of glacier...

www.frontiersin.org

.


This study states the Indus is the most reliant on glaciers at 80% of total flow.

One of the reasons is that the Indus River is the one most dependent on snowmelt and glacier melt contributing close to 80%

The Indus - a river of growing disasters

A new report crystalises the threats that glacier retreat will pose to the Indus basin, particularly vulnerable due to a combination of conflict and mismanaged development

www.thethirdpole.net

This study says greater than 50%, and also gives areas surfaces of glaciers.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330486878_Glaciers_in_the_Indus_Basin

And also answers your question, yes those in the Northern Areas do contribute more.

 

[Robbie]

Lol at the Indian posts about scrapping the treaty and taking more water (beyond the agreement). Go right ahead, as a lower riparian state China can end the living of 800 million Indians if you decide to play water wars.
Modi ain't stupid, the last time he hinted vaugly at this the Chinese sent words through diplomatic channels at what they would do. Of course he $hit himself and hasn't spoken like this since.

Regardless of whether the treaty is scrapped or not. India has and continues to build dams and Pakistan has not been able to do anything about it.

 

[waz]

Regardless of whether the treaty is scrapped or not. India has and continues to build dams and Pakistan has not been able to do anything about it.

Run-of-the-river and you are careful to state that.
Try disrupting the supply and see what happens.

You're at the mercy of the Chinese, hence why you don't go far. Don't act tough, you can't do anything yourselves.....

 

[StraightEdge]

China will always build dams in Tibet region, India won't have any say in that. China can unilaterally change treaties like that of HK - and world will not be able to anything. I think India should do same - forget any treaties of past. New times requires modern adjustments. Build dams like the Chinese will anyways do in eastern border. And building dams doesn't mean you stop water, you just regulate water more efficiently. It will be our responsibility to handle Chinese water projects in NE, and it should be Pak's responsibility to handle dams in our northern sector.

 

[Capt. Karnage]

we will make sure there wont be an india left once you make such a decision. our nukes arent here for nothing.

First lesson of nuclear warfare, never threaten a nuclear armed country with nukes. Second thing, we will survive a nuclear war but our retaliation will evaporate your little country so keep your childish threats to yourself, it won't impress us.

I firmly believe the Chinese will take your water.

Lol Chinese can't do that even if they want to. As for you, a lesson in geography particularly drainage systems might help you and one more thing, please also study Indian drainage, we are not dependent on just on system unlike you who are at our mercy.

What generosity u dumb ***? Rivers don't even flow through or towards mainland india

Same advise goes for you, study some geography.

 

[Capt. Karnage]

lol, you took three rivers, completely, and that was india intial claim..

we gave too much room, pakistan should have never accepted giving 100% of water on these three rivers, but whats done is done


now indus and jehlum doesnt even flow into punjab, so what the **** are you talkign about ..

in 1960s there wasnt anyway to even harness them for india

We are talking about the river system and not rivers. We are using only one fifth of it. I think 50-50 will be a fair deal.

Screw ups by Nehru continue to plague India even after 60 years of his death, most notably this IWT and Kashmir UN resolution.

Nehru screwed up big time but instead of blaming him all the times like bjp turds do we should focus on correcting those mistakes. Walking out of this fraud iwt would be the first step.

Run-of-the-river and you are careful to state that.
Try disrupting the supply and see what happens.

You're at the mercy of the Chinese, hence why you don't go far. Don't act tough, you can't do anything yourselves.....

The reality is neither China nor you can do anything, and we will do as we please.

well right now your 56" is on the back foot, you take any of our water and say good bye to Brahamaputra water. why do you think he offered to talk LMAO

Modi is undoubtedly a coward but thing is he won't be the one you or your iron birader will face in war. Try not to repeat the history.

 

[Silverblaze]

you should thank him, had Nehru not agree to cease fire, india would have lost all the kashmir to pushtoon fighters of pakistan..
india didnt had enough logistics to do any sort of war in kahsmir, the first troops arrived by air and there was a very small single acess road into kashmir

nehru startegically sent his wife to be fucked so areas that will connect kashmir to india through punjab into india be given to india through radcliff award

its not easy to send your wife , i pitty nehru that for so much sacrifice.. indians hate him


sardar patel was better for india and pakistan, he suggested we swap kashmir for deccan and create a united nations of south asia..but nehru didnt want it

imagine if sardar patel was in power, we might have been in different world with two friendly countries side by side

Pardon me but sadly, you are mistaken about the hindu fascist patel. Patel was directly responsible for killing muslims particularly East Punjab and his letters to sikh and hindu princes of Punjab and Rajasthan is open to read. His invasion of Hyderabad and the subsequent massacre is history. He is for this reason a favourite of hindus.

Patel was the reason why congress rejected the cabinet mission. He was the principle force to partition the muslim majority provinces even though muslim league passed resolutions against partitioning these muslim majority provinces.

According to Alastair Lamb, it was patel and baldev singh who were interfering in Kashmir and can be held responsible for Jammu genocide which started a cycle of violence. During the war, patel even wanted to attack as far as peshawar and bring entire S. Asia under hindu rule. his letters are open.

Ideally, Pakistan should have offered junagadh and Hyderabad to india in exchange for Kashmir without any plebiscite as early as mid sept 47 - success could not have been guaranteed but it would have been a good choice.

Please be aware, hindus and india itself is an ideological and civilizational enemy of Pakistan and muslims. Peace with hindus is impossible imo.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Screw ups by Nehru continue to plague India even after 60 years of his death, most notably this IWT and Kashmir UN resolution.

Nehru screwed up simply by birthing the secular republic of India. You people are not mature enough to run a country.