Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[abdulbarijan]

I went in such detail on a single word because that's the only single statement available from the russian side - the rest are just conjectures and extrapolations...the only statement from a low ranked FM "also talking about delivery of SU35" is the only real statement for which all this brouhaha has been created. One can only draw some observations from that singular statement.

Do me a favor, when you quote me ... don't cherry pick from part of 2 lined sentence with a 4 lined explanation ...

-Secondly, for someone who goes in to such detail over a single word ... I believe you forgot to read the part where the Mig-35 "offer" wasn't really an offer but more of a suggestion for Russian administration, when India did not shortlist the Mig-35 for the MMRCA deal ... Hence the quote of Russia's strategy and technical analysis center assistant director at the time being along the lines of ...

"Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy."

Lastly, if you went through my post it had an answer for your point .. so please review it again .. and if you have a point then please do contribute further ...

- I said that this was a 'theory' in jest ... If I were to seriously consider it ... I think I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking or at best a very weak hypothesis... and let me tell you why ...

Your "theory" is based on the presumptions that;

1. "talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets." -- are the Deputy FM's exact words ..
   
2. This is so out of the blue, chances are PAF pilots haven't even gotten in a cockpit of a Super Flanker ... which means that the whole process of requirement,trials, analysis price ... etc. has not taken place ... which is necessary for a delivery ..
   
3. The dealings of SU-35 with China ...
   
   hence ... this must mean ... SU-35 only being delivered to PLAAF but can be used to protect investments in Pakistan ...

and this so called 'theory' can be simply dismissed based on two factors ...

-Ilya Karmik specifically mentioning Pakistan as a "potential customer" ... Remember this is also Sputnik the same defensenews outlet that reported the Russian Deputy FM's story and this piece was published back in August of 2015.



-The confirmation from the Pakistani side .. although not an exact quote but is reported something like this .. notice the choice of words ...


Bottom line ... Ilya Kramik is calling Pakistan a potential "buyer" ... Pakistani officials are talking about a "Purchase" -- yet your basing your idea on the choice of words that weren't even exact quotes ...

I think this is enough to prove how illogical this idea is ... but lets put an end to this idea once and for all ... by exploring other problems with your theory ...

- Why is it that PLAAF wants to operate ONLY SU-35 in Pakistan to protect its interest ... after all PLAAF has assets from its own industry like say J-11B, J-16/15 are enough to deter any sort of threat ...

- How do you presume that PAF never had access to the SU-35 ... the Mig-35 "suggestion" was in mid 2011 ... in 2012 there were rumors on Chinese forums and even on here that PAF was considering SU-35's ... and this was right after India screwed the Russians out of the MMRCA ... so who is to say Pakistan never had any access to the Super flanker ...

The deal goes through or not is another discussion, but like I said I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking because it simply has too much flaws and is based on coincidences ...

 

[That Guy]

Seriously you are beyond being arrogant , I don't know what to say, just keep writing what ever you want , I will keep pushing you to your dam my lordship ?lolzz
@mods
Just get this stupid kid being out off topic ,arrogant or I may take him to cleaners my style ?



In the end sengupta is not Russian DFM ?
So no one gives a dam what he thinks , all importance is what Russian DFM said & this Gupta guy can't change it any way ?lolzz
End of story ?NO ?lolzz


With this deal kicking off with USA , Iam dam sure RUSSIA will offer more to Pakistan !

Indian cabinet approves military chopper deal - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

NEW DELHI: India cleared on Tuesday a $2.5 billion deal to buy 37 military helicopters from aviation giant Boeing, on the eve of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to the United States.

Mr Modi’s government is in the middle of a multi-billion dollar upgrade of its Soviet-era military hardware, partly to keep up with neighbouring rival Pakistan and big-spending China.

The cabinet cleared the purchase of 22 Apache helicopters and 15 heavy-lifting Chinook choppers, a long-pending deal that was discussed during US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel’s visit to India last August.

Also read: Airbus and Mahindra to make military choppers in India

“The cabinet committee on security has given the green signal for the helicopters. The deal is worth $2.5 billion,” a government source said.

Since his sweeping election victory last May, Mr Modi’s government has approved a string of military projects that had stalled under the previous left-leaning Congress government, in part over corruption scandals.

Mr Modi has also worked to shore up regional alliances since he came to power in India, which has a longstanding territorial dispute with China over a remote Himalayan region.

The nationalist premier wants to end India’s status as the world’s number one defence importer by instead manufacturing defence equipment locally.

His government has lifted the cap on foreign investment in the defence industry to 49 per cent and pushed tie ups between foreign and local companies.

The deal comes as Mr Modi heads this week to New York, where he hopes to meet US President Barack Obama ahead of the United Nations General Assembly.

He also travels to Silicon Valley on the West Coast, seeking to promote his country as open for business to help revive the Indian economy.

The deal for the Apaches was “hybrid”, with one contract to be signed with Boeing for the helicopters and the other with the US government for its weapons and radars, according to the Press Trust of India news agency.

Published in Dawn, September 23rd , 2015

Lol

 

[Basel]

then why we are looking for su-35?

Because Pakistan don't want to over burden its closest ally China which is rapidly modernizing PLAAF and need huge fleet to be replaced. Therefore asking J-11s or higher series will put their production line in pressure although in emergency they will provide those when asked by Pakistan.

Now going for Su-35 benefit all 03 countries Pakistan, Russia and China.

Russia need new markets for military products Pakistan is one of those with strategic benefits, Pakistan need weapons in affordable price (Su-35 class jet from west is unaffordable and sanction able too), China want strong Pakistan to protect its future interest and will get access to Su-35 engine tech without purchasing them (if they wanted).

Indians think due to their huge orders Russia can be black mailed but they forgot China is much bigger partner of Russia and both have joint strong future strategic interest while India is allying with west to encircle China, so now with whom Russia will ally in future.

 

[Imran Khan]

Because Pakistan don't want to over burden its closest ally China which is rapidly modernizing PLAAF and need huge fleet to be replaced. Therefore asking J-11s or higher series will put their production line in pressure although in emergency they will provide those when asked by Pakistan.

Now going for Su-35 benefit all 03 countries Pakistan, Russia and China.

Russia need new markets for military products Pakistan is one of those with strategic benefits, Pakistan need weapons in adorable price (Su-35 class jet from west is unaffordable and sanction able too), China want strong Pakistan to protect its future interest and will get access to Su-35 engine tech without purchasing them (if they wanted).

Indians think due to their huge orders Russia can be black mailed but they forgot China is much bigger partner of Russia and China both have joint strong future strategic interest while India is allying with west to encircle China, so now with whom Russia will ally in future.

fully agree nothing more can be said on it sir

 

[VelocuR]

Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China

Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.

Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?


Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China

Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.

Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?


Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?

There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...


Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??

 

[zebra7]

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

What does this mean ??

 

[VelocuR]

There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...


Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??

No clue, what requirements.

Pakistan should purchase it from Russia without unnecessary modifications, just like our F-16s.

What does this mean ??

It is true Russia wouldn't do anything to disturb India, now smile please.

 

[JunaidP]

Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China

Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

A Russian source told Defenseworld, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.


Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?

what i don't see being discussed in this thread are the technical aspects.. the cockpit clearly does not have HOTAS.. while both our front line fighters do (F-16 & JF-17).. how would that impact pilot training or would that be just negligible? would that be one of the changes required by PAF? i think i read somewhere that the Su-37 test bed did have HOTAS in it..

another MAJOR question would be how it would be integrated in our C4I.. going by this article, what i see is PAF going for the Chinese radar (from the J-11D perhaps) but keeping the airframe and engines the same.. cant say much about the EW suite.. this way it would not have any issues integrating with our existing C4I network and Russia can pitch the IRBIS-E radar to the Indians to give them a kind of a "lollipop" for their Super Flanker upgrade..

questions would still arise over its serviceability.. China would have to come in as a guarantor for spare parts and an engine overhaul setup would have to be made as part of the discussions..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...


Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??

This might be the Chinese AESA Radar and similar cockpit as JF-17 for SU-35 giving them commonality. EW suit might also be an advance western one along with the ejection seat...

 

[S.U.R.B.]

Following is a fine writing about the recently introduced capabilities in the the most advanced version of Flanker.
It include the pilots' opinion and their assessment regarding it's deployment against the western platforms.
A good read for the newbies.

Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

Dave Majumdar has been covering defense since 2004. He currently writes for the U.S. Naval Institute, Aviation Week and The Daily Beast, among others. Majumdar previously covered national security issues at Flight International, Defense News and C4ISR Journal. Majumdar studied Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and is a student of naval history.

The Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E is the most potent fighter currently in operation with the Russian Air Force. The powerful twin-engine fighter, which is an advanced derivative of the original Soviet-era Su-27, is high flying, fast and carries an enormous payload. That, combined with its advanced suite of avionics, makes the Su-35 an extremely dangerous foe to any U.S. fighter, with the exception of the stealthy Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. That is one of the reasons the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force is keen to acquire the new jet.

“It’s a great airplane and very dangerous, especially if they make a lot of them,” said one senior U.S. military official with extensive experience on fifth-generation fighters. “I think even an AESA [active electronically scanned array-radar equipped F-15C] Eagle and [Boeing F/A-18E/F] Super Hornet would both have their hands full.”

One U.S. Navy Super Hornet pilot—a graduate of that service’s elite TOPGUN school—offered a sobering assessment. “When taken as a singular platform, I like the Su-35’s chances against most of our platforms, with perhaps the exception of the F-22 and F-15C,” the naval aviator said. “I suspect the F/A-18E/F can hold it’s own and F-35 has presumed stealth and sensor management on its side.”

But one Air Force official with experience on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter said that the Su-35 could pose a serious challenge for the stealthy new American jet. The F-35 was built primarily as a strike fighter and does not have the sheer speed or altitude capability of the Su-35 or F-22. “The Su's ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35,” the Air Force official said.

As an air-superiority fighter, its major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.

The Su-35 would be launching its weapons from high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft; the F-35 would primarily be operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9.

The Su-35 builds on the already potent Flanker airframe, which in many respects already exceeded the aerodynamic performance of the Boeing F-15 Eagle. The Su-35 adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.

“Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform on paper,” said one highly experienced F-22 pilot. “It's considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft. It possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.”

The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Further, the Air Force official added that even modernized versions of older jets would be in serious trouble against the new Flanker variant. “I'd say our fourth-gen AESAs aren't a big advantage,” said the official. “They're more to get us back in the game against jamming.”



But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven't been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” said another senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”

The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” the Super Hornet pilot said.

Another of the Su-35’s major advantages is that it carries an enormous payload of air-to-air missiles. “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” the Navy pilot said.

On paper, that makes the Su-35 an extremely capable platform, but as one highly experienced F-22 pilot pointed out: “Whether they can translate that into valid tactics remains to be seen".

Further, air warfare is far more complicated than comparing individual platforms—the sum total of the forces brought to bear have to be assessed in aggregate.

“It’s always sexy to compare one aircraft to another,” the naval aviator said. “The secret sauce is probably in our fighters and commensurate ‘strike’ or employment packages, to include AWACS, refuelling, and EM-capable platforms.”

Another highly experienced veteran fighter pilot added that much about the Su-35 and the capabilities of the Russian military remain unknown.

“You really don't know the capabilities of the weapons system or the skill level of the other side's pilots or their battle management system,” one former Air Force pilot with extensive experience with Soviet and Russian hardware said. “A physical platform is a shell of capability. It's what's inside that counts along with the command and control to execute. Our fifth-gen is pretty good. Weapons reliability and defensive suites might make the difference.”

The Navy Super Hornet pilot added to that point. “The question really comes down to numbers and tactical employment. Where does the fight go down? Are we talking a 1:1 ratio of Su-35 vs. F/A-18Es?” the veteran naval aviator asked. “I’d give the edge on tactical employment to Western-trained aviators for the time being, though other nations are working hard to close the gap.”

One of the Air Force pilots concurred. “Our training and skill of USAF pilots will keep us ahead of the game, but they are certainly closing the gap,” one of the Raptor pilots said.

Overall, it would be fair to assess the Su-35 as an extremely capable fighter—perhaps the best Russia or the Soviet Union has ever developed. “But it’s not a Raptor and will be hamstrung by the two key elements of fifth-gen war…stealth, and broad spectrum sensor fusion,” said the senior military official.

Reference:
Su-35 Flanker-E Multirole Fighter - Airforce Technology
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

 

[batmannow]

Following is a fine writing about the recently introduced capabilities in the the most advanced version of Flanker.
It include the pilots' opinion and their assessment regarding it's deployment against the western platforms.
A good read for the newbies.

Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

Dave Majumdar has been covering defense since 2004. He currently writes for the U.S. Naval Institute, Aviation Week and The Daily Beast, among others. Majumdar previously covered national security issues at Flight International, Defense News and C4ISR Journal. Majumdar studied Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and is a student of naval history.



Reference:
Su-35 Flanker-E Multirole Fighter - Airforce Technology
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

Doesn't matters who majumdar Gupta is , for us he is just another influential , educated Indian trying his best for his mother land by using his pen ?
Even if any hypothetical way USA announce to give raptors to Pakistan , his assessment will be against to cause its Pakistan which will be geting that ?
So again it doesn't matters where you live , or educated in , in sub continent its all rivalries ?

 

[Quwa]

@mods
Find better peoples to your think tanks ?
At least who can be on topic instead of going personal just becuse of any disagreement on the issue they react like nursurry kids ?lolzzz

If PAF manages to succeed in acquiring Su-35 and inducts it, then our friends to the east will say, "but the pakis only got the least popular version. Su-30MKI Super Flanker is definitely the better fighter in every respect. I'd much rather be flying a MiG-21bis against a Su-35. Plus J-31 is based on JF-17, which is based on F-7, the worst MiG-21 variant."

 

[Basel]

This might be the Chinese AESA Radar and similar cockpit as JF-17 for SU-35 giving them commonality. EW suit might also be an advance western one along with the ejection seat...

Chinese AESA may be cheaper then IBRIS-E and will offer better capabilities but cannot say about what range it will offer because no one truly knows what power output it will have, in range IBRIS-E may be better. Pakistan can at least get J-11D AESA customized for Su-35, if deals go through and PAF is not satisfied with IBRIS-E for its future needs.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Chinese AESA may be cheaper then IBRIS-E and will offer better capabilities but cannot say about what range it will offer because no one truly knows what power output it will have, in range IBRIS-E may be better. Pakistan can at least get J-11D AESA customized for Su-35, if deals go through and PAF is not satisfied with IBRIS-E for its future needs.

The capabilities of J11D's Aesa is also not published hence its capability is also not known... There are some news that PAF may be looking for a modified AESA developed for the J20....

Realistically speaking the Italians might also be interested in selling an upgraded version of their AESA. The one that is on offer is for the JF-17. If this is permitted then this would really boost the capabilities of PAF.

Martin baker seats that are being produced by Pakistan would definitely be part of the SU-35...