Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[R@m-R@heem]

Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future

But buying this jet is not economically viable for pakistan.. given the established fact that russia won't jeopardise its relations with india (provided india objects, which it will.. if this report is considered true) to sell a few (24-36) jets to paf.
Why i think that it is not feasible is cz pakistan has never operated an heavy class fighter bomber, neither has it operated a twin engine fighter, and inducting a su35 will require a major change in the war fighting doctrine that paf has gotten used to in all these years. and a doctrine shift is not smthing that is done with a small number of fighter inductions.
Su-35 is a very potent platform, and a possible shot in the paf's arm, no doubt, but the fact is that, it is nothing but russians idea of sending multiple messages with a single statement of intent... To Americans (and the West), it communicates that, putting sanctions on Russian will "force" them to sell potent weapons platforms to nations, that the NATO is getting weary off (Present offer to pakistan, S-300 systems to iran, etc), To Pakistan, they wish to communicate an airy dream of the possibilities they can be privy to, if they leave the American Camp and become the market for russian military hardware. And most importantly, i think this message is to the Modi govt, which is getting too close to the west, that Russia is not thier kitty.
In Reality, however, this message says that the Russians are facing the economic heat of the sanctions imposed by the west, and seduces india to invests in the FGFA program, and do so quick. as they alone cant lift the weight of the $50 + Billion project. ( and india is the only country which can support it financially.. korea will only go for small numbers- off the shelf purchase.. that too in the near future)
all in all, The economic viability on part of pakistan was always evident - reasons cited above (and pakistan's current economic posture)-.. besides, if Pakistan was to even accept such Offer, India would surely protest, and the russians would surely withdraw.. as they have in the past.. so Truly, but sadly, this Never was about pakistan!!

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Lets not jump the gun here.

The Su-35 is truly a very good fighter. Some talks on a possible sale most likely took place. Hence the news. Even the Russian Ambassador to India didn't say there were no such talks. What he said was that the news was an overstatement. Which may have been to placate the media outburst over the news. However it is absolutely too early to predict whether all this will end up in an actual deal. Things don't happen that way. These are long drawn processes and anything can happen.

So first, lets see how this pans out and not be hasty and count our chickens before they hatch.

Personally I really do like this plane and the PAF have always been missing an Air Superiority Fighter and this fighter is not only that but it is also an excellent strike fighter.

Also I would like to point out that some fellow members are saying that the Chinese Su-27/30 derivatives are also a very good option (J-11D especially). Well the problem, in my humble opinion, is that there is a bit of bad blood between Russia and China on the issue of China reverse engineering the Su-27/30 family ... and there is a tacit agreement that China won't export those fighters.

agree with you and china is also very near to the deal to purchase 24 SU-35 but china happy with j-11D

The J-11D Surprise: China Upgrades Russian Flanker Fighters On Its Own

In a surprise development, the J-11D "D1101" prototype flew its first flight on April 29, 2015. The J-11D is the latest in Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC)'s family fighters licensed and modified from the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 "Flanker." SAC has built well over 200 Su-27 and J-11s, such as the licensed produced J-11A and indigenously upgraded J-11B, which had better engines and radar, and a lighter airframe. It is possible that improvements from other Chinese Flanker variants, like the J-15 carrier fighter and J-16 strike fighter, have been applied to the J-11D.

The J-11D's most noticeable upgrade is an upwardly canted radar dome, which carries an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, as well as further use of composites and stealth coatings in the fuselage to reduce weight. The fighter's Infrared Search and Tracking (IRST) pod has been relocated starboard of the cockpit, to accommodate a retractable inflight refueling (IFR) probe. The J-11D is also believed to have improved weapons hardpoints to carry the latest Chinese weapons, such as the PL-10 air to air missile, long range PL-21 missile and YJ-12 antiship missile.

The J-11D's upgrades allow it to take full advantage of new PLAAF capabilities, and in turn, extend those capabilities further. For example, the IFR probe would enable aerial refueling from an Il-78 tanker, extending both the aerial patrol time and range of the fighter. The AESA radar offers key advantages over older, conventionally scanned radar; it's more resistant against electronic jamming, offers higher resolution when targetting stealthy aircraft, and has greater range. The J-11D's datalinks would enable it to share its radar data with other Chinese aircraft and ships. The J-11D's greater weapons payload would include long range weapons that could then be guided by other systems with longer ranged sensors, like the KJ-500 airborne early warning radar plane.

The J-11D's first flight is especially interesting given persistent rumors about impending Chinese purchases of the Su-35, the most modern Russian Flanker model. Ironically, the Su-35 uses a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar, which is an older and generally less flexible technology. Further flights like this indicate a shift is at hand, as advancing Chinese technology might be killing the Su-35's China sale chances.
The J-11D Surprise: China Upgrades Russian Flanker Fighters On Its Own | Popular Science

But the reality is The Su-35 is far more maneuverable than the J-11 that's why china need su-35
Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat

Despite the evident maturity of the J-11D program, the Chinese military nevertheless appears to also be going ahead with plans to purchase Russian Su-35 Flankers. The Su-35 is far more maneuverable than the J-11 – which gives the Russian jet an advantage in short-range dogfights – can fly longer distances, and can take off and land with a larger payload. It is also equipped with new avionics and new cockpit displays. However, its radar is a less advanced passive electronically scanned array (PESA) than the AESA system on the J-11D. Moreover, the aircraft and its systems will be manufactured abroad. The Chinese government views its indigenous defense industry as a strategic asset; purchasing more planes from Russia will not help advance Beijing’s goal of developing a mature, self-reliant aerospace industry. Given the apparent redundancy of moving forward with two very similar aircraft programs, some analysts speculate that the PLAAF’s primary motivation for buying the Su-35 may not be for its value as a weapons system but rather because it is equipped with advanced AL-117S turbofans.

 

[war&peace]

But buying this jet is not economically viable for pakistan.. given the established fact that russia won't jeopardise its relations with india (provided india objects, which it will.. if this report is considered true) to sell a few (24-36) jets to paf.
Why i think that it is not feasible is cz pakistan has never operated an heavy class fighter bomber, neither has it operated a twin engine fighter, and inducting a su35 will require a major change in the war fighting doctrine that paf has gotten used to in all these years. and a doctrine shift is not smthing that is done with a small number of fighter inductions.
Su-35 is a very potent platform, and a possible shot in the paf's arm, no doubt, but the fact is that, it is nothing but russians idea of sending multiple messages with a single statement of intent... To Americans (and the West), it communicates that, putting sanctions on Russian will "force" them to sell potent weapons platforms to nations, that the NATO is getting weary off (Present offer to pakistan, S-300 systems to iran, etc), To Pakistan, they wish to communicate an airy dream of the possibilities they can be privy to, if they leave the American Camp and become the market for russian military hardware. And most importantly, i think this message is to the Modi govt, which is getting too close to the west, that Russia is not thier kitty.
In Reality, however, this message says that the Russians are facing the economic heat of the sanctions imposed by the west, and seduces india to invests in the FGFA program, and do so quick. as they alone cant lift the weight of the $50 + Billion project. ( and india is the only country which can support it financially.. korea will only go for small numbers- off the shelf purchase.. that too in the near future)
all in all, The economic viability on part of pakistan was always evident - reasons cited above (and pakistan's current economic posture)-.. besides, if Pakistan was to even accept such Offer, India would surely protest, and the russians would surely withdraw.. as they have in the past.. so Truly, but sadly, this Never was about pakistan!!

bla bla bla......typical looser rant .... Well there is first time for everything. If we go by this shitty crappy stinkishly flawed logic of yours, the British could have said, Indians never ruled before for past 1200 yrs.

 

[That Guy]

Sure then , just tell bankers to go on the borders & stand upfront from the enemy fire ?lol
Only strong defence can bring a strong economy , without a strong defence no economy can have any gurntees .

You have no idea what you're talking about, just keep quiet, bullets don't feed people.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

war is not even a remote possibility

War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..

paisa paisa, Paisa bohot hai Pakistan k pass, next year paison ki barish hogi, Nawaz and Zardari are going to hell, sara paisa wapis aye ga ur mujhy lagta hai Next year Pakistan sb se zayada Military hardware acquire kare ga ...

 

[Skull and Bones]

Indian Claims:-

1> Russia will jeopardize its relations with India if SU 35 deal goes through

Reply:- Yes Indians will not like it. But, rather a very big BUT, it would be impossible for INDIA to stop doing business with Russia because of the already huge percentage of Russian weapons which require spare parts, maintenance and upgrades which can be provided by none other than Russia. India has no option but to do business with Russia though with a heavy heart may be.

2> India will be pushed towards west i.e., Europe/ USA for weapons etc
Reply:- Well, India since its economy has improved has been leaning towards west and with the MMRCA fiasco it became evident to the Russians that India will opt a western based platform as compared to a Russian one ,subject to availability of a quality weapon system form the west. So Just like a good customer, India is buying the best weapons form where ever it can get. There are no loyal customers, everyone wants to get the best possible deal regardless wheteher it comes form fiji, russia, france or uncle sam. So Indians must stop acting as if after this deal we will stop purchasing Russian weapons. You already didn't opt Russia for MMRCA and same will be the case sometimes in the future also. This is not nail in the coffin scenario.

3> Wait till Modi's December visit to Russia
Reply:- Ok. We are waiting.

You must be aware that many Eastern European countries provide upgrade and maintenance service for Soviet weapon systems.

 

[R@m-R@heem]

War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..

paisa paisa, Paisa bohot hai Pakistan k pass, next year paison ki barish hogi, Nawaz and Zardari are going to hell, sara paisa wapis aye ga ur mujhy lagta hai Next year Pakistan sb se zayada Military hardware acquire kare ga ...

LALLE, CONVENTIONAL WAR M E TO PAKISTAN HAS NO CHANCE OF BEATING INDIA.. EVEN YOUR MILITARY EXPERTS ACCEPT IT.. AND AGAR NUCLEAR WAR HUI TO PAKISTAN KA EK KATRA BHI NAHI BACHEGA TO CALL ITSELF PAKISTAN, INDIA FIR BHI KUCH NA KUCH TO BACH HI JAEGA.. BESIDES, IN A A COUPLE OF YEARS, INDIA WILL HAVE A BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEM IN MAJOR CITIES WHICH HAVE HIGHEST RISK OF A MISSILE HIT (DELHI, MUMBAI, ETC), SO THERE ARE CHANCES THAT MANY OF UR MISSILES MAY NOT EVEN FIND A MARK.
BUT IDIOTISM ASIDE, ANY NUCLEAR WAR WOULD MEAN THE END OF MANKIND.. IT WILL BE A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST WHICH WILL INVOLVE EVERY COUNTRY TO INTERVENE.. AND THE NUCLEAR WAR WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO :
1. PAKISTAN ATTACKS INDIA (LIKE ALWAYS)
2. INDIA RETALIATE
3. END OF WAR.. END OF MANKIND

SCENARIO 2 :
1. PAKISTAN USES PROXIES INSIDE INDIAN TERRITORY (26/11)
2. INDIA USES SURGICAL STRIKES OR/AND BLACK OPS
3. PAKISTAN RETALIATES USING CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS.
4. PAKISTANI EXTREMISTS (TERRORISTS LIKE HAFIZ SYED, ETC) SEASE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
5. WORLD INTELLIGENCE ON HIGH ALERT.
6. NATO CONDUCTS MISSIONS TO STRIP PAKISTAN OF ITS NUCLEAR ARSENAL .
7. INDIA IN A FEW YEARS ATTACK PAKISTAN AND TAKE WHOLE KASHMIR. AND FREE BALUCHISTAN.

SIMPLE!

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

National Interest is bogus website mainly posted by pro Indian editors. If you go their topics (often posted on yahoo), they are heavily against Pakistan. What ever they uploaded has no relevance to the truth.

 

[R@m-R@heem]

War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..

YOU KNOW THERE IS THIS FAMOUS EINSTEIN QUOTE ON WAR : " I KNOW NOT WHAT WEAPONS WOULD THE WW3 BE FOUGHT WITH, BUT THE WW4 WILL BE FOUGHT WITH STICKS AND STONES"... TRY AND GRASP ITS REAL MEANING..

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Russia not cares 25 billions going out from its pocket but it cares Chinese hundreds of billions going back to China ?
India is not hundered miles closer to China with the money ? Right ?say yes !lolzz

So, are you suggesting that China will compensate (on behalf of Pakistan) Russia's losses of $25+ Billions (and potentially much more in the near future) from missed Indian contracts if Russia goes ahead with Su35 to Pakistan? What would China get out of this after spending so many Billions for nothing? And how long can the Chinese keep compensating them?

If that was the case, China herself wouldn't have involved in trade worth $100B with India (not even counting the investments). Like your countrymen already mentioned, there are no permanent friends and enemies. Only self interests are permanent. And Russia's self interests dictate that they don't antagonize one of their biggest customer (India) especially at a time when they are under severe sanctions from the West.

On Topic:
It is too early to predict anything but it really seems counter-intuitive for Russia to jeopardize her relationship worth tens of Billions of dollars with India for NO apparent reason! Perhaps, these are just pressure tactics by Russia at play here or just that the Russians just want to gauge India's reaction.

Would Russia supply a potent platform like Su35 to China? Yes, because China has deeper pockets and can potentially outspend India. Would Russia supply Su35 to Pakistan? Very unlikely, given Pakistan's own economic woes.

 

[ababeel22]

I believe that its better for Pakistan not to go for the flankers because that will further push India towards Europe and USA. If Russia sells SU-35 to Pakistan its not like India cannot get anything better. India can buy typhoons, Rafael or even join the F35 project. Even MKIs are not that far behind SU 35s and can be upgraded easily to the same levels, also Pakistan can not afford them in the same numbers as India can do also they have a lot more experience flying those jets. Pakistan shouldn't give an excuse to India to break its strategic relationship with Russia, which i think India is itching to do. An India using Russian technology is far less capable than an India getting its hands on some of the most advanced american and European technology. If in Today's world there is any jet that Pakistan can have to achieve its superiority over IAF is Typhoon or F 35 but Pakistan cant get it hands on any of theses because of economic and strategic condition. In my opinion Pakistan should just focus on jf17 program for now but keep on working towards improving its international image. May be in 5 years international politics will change and Pakistan will be in a position to get its hands on some western jets. (In most of the wars western jets have won against Russian jets)

 

[Dil Pakistan]

I believe that its better for Pakistan not to go for the flankers because that will further push India towards Europe and USA. If Russia sells SU-35 to Pakistan its not like India cannot get anything better. India can buy typhoons, Rafael or even join the F35 project. Even MKIs are not that far behind SU 35s and can be upgraded easily to the same levels, also Pakistan can not afford them in the same numbers as India can do also they have a lot more experience flying those jets. Pakistan shouldn't give an excuse to India to break its strategic relationship with Russia, which i think India is itching to do. An India using Russian technology is far less capable than an India getting its hands on some of the most advanced american and European technology. If in Today's world there is any jet that Pakistan can have to achieve its superiority over IAF is Typhoon or F 35 but Pakistan cant get it hands on any of theses because of economic and strategic condition. In my opinion Pakistan should just focus on jf17 program for now but keep on working towards improving its international image. May be in 5 years international politics will change and Pakistan will be in a position to get its hands on some western jets. (In most of the wars western jets have won against Russian jets)

India, Europe and USA, when doing business, will not think about Pakistan even once. India did not go for French jets due to any sale to Pakistan; and French cancelled the JF-17 upgrade deal to please India.

India has money and diplomatic muscle; USA and West need money.

We should do and take what is in our interest and what we can afford.

According to PAF doctrine, we do not need to match IAF pound for pound. We need to keep them at an arms length and even three squadrons of SU-35 will do that.

 

[R@m-R@heem]

You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............



1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan

These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................

INDIA IS BUYING THE APACHE FROM BOEING , WHICH IS A FAAAR SUPERIOR PLATFORM FROM THE HIND-E THAT YOU WLL FLY. RD 93 ARE VERY UNRELIABLE ENGINES.. SO BOTH YOUR CLAIMS FALL FLAT ON THEIR FACE!
BESIDES, WHERE ON EARTH WILL U FIND THE FUNDING FOR THE SU35??
PAKISTAN'S TOTAL DEFENCE BUDGET IS ABOUT 781 BILLION (PAKISTANI RUPEES) FOR THE FISCAL 2015-16. ( ABOUT $6.8 BILLION). PAF'S BUDGET IS ABOUT 164 BILLION MEANING $ 1.36 BILLION

ONE SU-35 IS ABOUT $65MILLION APIECE (EXCLUDING THE COST OF SPARES, WEAPONS, LOGISTICS, TRAINING, RADAR, ETC, ETC).
YOU BUY TWO SQUADRONS OF SAY 15 FIGHTERS = 30 FIGHTERS , MEANS ABOUT $ 2 BILLION (ONLY FIGHTERS). EVEN IF YOU SPREAD THE COST OVER 5 YEARS, EVEN WITH A CREDIT LINE FROM RUSSIA (WHICH WILL BE THIN, GIVEN ITS OWN SANCTIONS), WILL MEAN THAT YOU ARE SPENDING (& BLOCKING) ABOUT 36% OF YOUR TOTAL AIR FORCE'S BUDGET FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS ON JUST 2 SQUADRON OF PLANES (THE SPARES OF WHICH MAY BE SCARCE IF U WAGE A WAR WITH YOUR ARCH ENEMY INDIA - WHICH IS A VERRY CLOSE ALLY OF RUSSIA!!! DO U THINK ITS A SAFE INVESTMENT IF AT ALL FEASIBLE??????
AND WE ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THAT U HAVE COMMITMENTS TO PAY SALARIES TO UR PERSONNEL, PAY FOR FOR YOUR UPGRADES OF F-16, PURCHASE AND UPGRADE OF JF 17, ETC, ETC

IN SHORT, DREAM ON!

PS : OH AND DID I MENTION THAT THE SU35 IS AS GOOD AS THE SUPER SUKHOI MKI THAT INDIA HAS ALREADY STARTED UPGRADING ITS FLEET TO (AGAIN- NOT TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE CLOSE TO 2 DECADES OF EXPERIENCE OF FLYING THESE BIRDS AND KNOW ALL ITS FLAWS AND STRENGTHS).. SO IN EXCHANGE OF ALL THIS.. U DO NOT.. IN ANY WAY GAIN AN UPPER HAND TO INDIA.. NO WHERE.. THINK ABOUT IT!

 

[Basel]

INDIA IS BUYING THE APACHE FROM BOEING , WHICH IS A FAAAR SUPERIOR PLATFORM FROM THE HIND-E THAT YOU WLL FLY. RD 93 ARE VERY UNRELIABLE ENGINES.. SO BOTH YOUR CLAIMS FALL FLAT ON THEIR FACE!
BESIDES, WHERE ON EARTH WILL U FIND THE FUNDING FOR THE SU35??
PAKISTAN'S TOTAL DEFENCE BUDGET IS ABOUT 781 BILLION (PAKISTANI RUPEES) FOR THE FISCAL 2015-16. ( ABOUT $6.8 BILLION). PAF'S BUDGET IS ABOUT 164 BILLION MEANING $ 1.36 BILLION

ONE SU-35 IS ABOUT $65MILLION APIECE (EXCLUDING THE COST OF SPARES, WEAPONS, LOGISTICS, TRAINING, RADAR, ETC, ETC).
YOU BUY TWO SQUADRONS OF SAY 15 FIGHTERS = 30 FIGHTERS , MEANS ABOUT $ 2 BILLION (ONLY FIGHTERS). EVEN IF YOU SPREAD THE COST OVER 5 YEARS, EVEN WITH A CREDIT LINE FROM RUSSIA (WHICH WILL BE THIN, GIVEN ITS OWN SANCTIONS), WILL MEAN THAT YOU ARE SPENDING (& BLOCKING) ABOUT 36% OF YOUR TOTAL AIR FORCE'S BUDGET FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS ON JUST 2 SQUADRON OF PLANES (THE SPARES OF WHICH MAY BE SCARCE IF U WAGE A WAR WITH YOUR ARCH ENEMY INDIA - WHICH IS A VERRY CLOSE ALLY OF RUSSIA!!! DO U THINK ITS A SAFE INVESTMENT IF AT ALL FEASIBLE??????
AND WE ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THAT U HAVE COMMITMENTS TO PAY SALARIES TO UR PERSONNEL, PAY FOR FOR YOUR UPGRADES OF F-16, PURCHASE AND UPGRADE OF JF 17, ETC, ETC

IN SHORT, DREAM ON!

PS : OH AND DID I MENTION THAT THE SU35 IS AS GOOD AS THE SUPER SUKHOI MKI THAT INDIA HAS ALREADY STARTED UPGRADING ITS FLEET TO (AGAIN- NOT TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE CLOSE TO 2 DECADES OF EXPERIENCE OF FLYING THESE BIRDS AND KNOW ALL ITS FLAWS AND STRENGTHS).. SO IN EXCHANGE OF ALL THIS.. U DO NOT.. IN ANY WAY GAIN AN UPPER HAND TO INDIA.. NO WHERE.. THINK ABOUT IT!

Mister on Apache, do u know that Pakistan is getting its equivalent with latest Hell fire missiles its called AH-1Z.

 

[Eagle Claw]

LALLE, CONVENTIONAL WAR M E TO PAKISTAN HAS NO CHANCE OF BEATING INDIA.. EVEN YOUR MILITARY EXPERTS ACCEPT IT.. AND AGAR NUCLEAR WAR HUI TO PAKISTAN KA EK KATRA BHI NAHI BACHEGA TO CALL ITSELF PAKISTAN, INDIA FIR BHI KUCH NA KUCH TO BACH HI JAEGA.. BESIDES, IN A A COUPLE OF YEARS, INDIA WILL HAVE A BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEM IN MAJOR CITIES WHICH HAVE HIGHEST RISK OF A MISSILE HIT (DELHI, MUMBAI, ETC), SO THERE ARE CHANCES THAT MANY OF UR MISSILES MAY NOT EVEN FIND A MARK.
BUT IDIOTISM ASIDE, ANY NUCLEAR WAR WOULD MEAN THE END OF MANKIND.. IT WILL BE A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST WHICH WILL INVOLVE EVERY COUNTRY TO INTERVENE.. AND THE NUCLEAR WAR WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO :
1. PAKISTAN ATTACKS INDIA (LIKE ALWAYS)
2. INDIA RETALIATE
3. END OF WAR.. END OF MANKIND

SCENARIO 2 :
1. PAKISTAN USES PROXIES INSIDE INDIAN TERRITORY (26/11)
2. INDIA USES SURGICAL STRIKES OR/AND BLACK OPS
3. PAKISTAN RETALIATES USING CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS.
4. PAKISTANI EXTREMISTS (TERRORISTS LIKE HAFIZ SYED, ETC) SEASE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
5. WORLD INTELLIGENCE ON HIGH ALERT.
6. NATO CONDUCTS MISSIONS TO STRIP PAKISTAN OF ITS NUCLEAR ARSENAL .
7. INDIA IN A FEW YEARS ATTACK PAKISTAN AND TAKE WHOLE KASHMIR. AND FREE BALUCHISTAN.

SIMPLE!

Okay ho gaya ?
Chal Ab Nikal lay bachay yahan say !
If we started then this forum will become a mess rather than forum !