Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[thesolar65]

Russian know Pakistan does not have a dime to spare, but they are trolling India before Modi visit to US!!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

lol.. you pakistanis are really fools..
pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time.
Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters??? now think who is in delusion.
india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??


russia is going to introduce pak fa in 2016. india will get it in 2018. by the time pakistan(if they order the SU-35) have su-35.


no, like in 1971.

Su-35 isn't a 5th gen fighter ... Pak is already looking at Chinese J-31 for the 5th generation fighter... Apart from that our Air Chief has already stated that PAF is looking in both East n west for a 5th gen fighter... East being China.. West most probably Turkey (Join their TFX Program) or USA...

If su -35 is chosen it will not serve as our counter balance for a 5th gen fughter but as a long strike aircraft !


Also so called Pak Fa is still tears from production ! Google it..

As for our current defence budget it's around 8 billion .. Augmented by a few billion dollar CSF and supported by other sources like FFGs..

 

[batmannow]

Look what did happen with su-27 ..initial plan was for much larger numbers but then the plan was halted and the world witnessed chinese j-11s with alot of fuss from russian side even some of their official claiming to ban military exports to china and raising issue at international level.... Reverse engineering is what China is good at may it be mig series in past or flanker today .... And yes it will help PAF too significantly in terms of multiplying paf capabilities and giving a strategic advantage so the outcome here is not only reverse engineering but also strategic move which will help all parties...
Russia needs money....China needs more insight into latest flanker...Pakistan needs teeth to keep india at bay while also having an option to go deep...win win

Irrespective of the fact that their public interferes in their decisions or not but the fact is no country would like to give an image of its locally produced equipment (which by the way comprise of major part of their modernization program) as something which is inferior or sub standard.

If that country is not having SU-37 & SU -47S for itself yes they be worried about what the buyer will be doing with their least potential product to them ?
In Russia case they have more then what you can imagine ?
By doing that they are getting more funds & new strategic partners who can led them into middle east worsning situation ?
So it all win win !

 

[Mutakalim]

what the heck? i know.for a fact that UAE baught f-16E/F for 34 million dollars each, how can a pakistani block 52+ aircraft which is less capable and has less fancy avionics and engine be of 65 million dollars? thats the unit cost of Su-35 rafale! and when i.say unit cost it does not include weapons spare parts or fuel costs, i guoted unit cost from.the manufacturers if we.change components which PAF mostly does the price can shoot up. anyways thats always welcome and good to improve things up. im sticking with my point f-16 A/B unit cost 17 million dollars. and by the way india always buys weapons for 25% more cost as compared to russian air force i dont know why may be its policy.

Could you please change your fonts style. Seem very odd or maybe you trying to seek attention.

 

[$@rJen]

Russian know Pakistan does not have a dime to spare, but they are trolling India before Modi visit to US!!

There's might be another reason too....

See Russians lost MMRCA deal they're not going to tolerate/manage if they loose Next Gen Sub deal.. This trolling is going to be the test bed for that deal... if we fail to give that deal to th Russians.. then they're going to Screw us in this way... we can't do anything about it.

 

[batmannow]

India does not need any spare and supply for Mig-27 which it would be retiring by end of next year ;neither does it need "Russian" supply for MKI and Mig-21 for whom it is a certified OEM.

And LOL on Navy comment.Indian Navy is least dependent on Russia. There are some old Russian ships in Indian Navy, but India manufactures all its ships at home and has been doing that for nearly a decade. Only SSK are bought from abroad and those are French in origin.




All Mig 27s would be retired by next years end. Mig-21 would retire in next 5-7 years depending on progress in LCA.

There are nearly 160 Jaguars in IAF's service.

Apart from direct deal of 36, a separate RFI of 90 aircraft has been floated by GoI (if you are abreast with current affairs). This larger deal probably is cause of delay in signing (an off the shelf deal of 36 fighters is very easy to negotiate).

In 10 years, Russians content in IAF would fall below 50% mainly due to induction of large number of LCA and also due to purchase from non-Russian actors.

So what you mean is India is willing to be a air force of 400 fighters ,mainly su*27 & 30s & what about its navy ?lolzz
Ohh since when India is manufacturing subs , & its carriers ?lolzz
Wakeup before , whole of your military will be torn apart ?lolzz

 

[Bang Galore]

Shut up fool.

Pakistan's defense budget is only for annual salaries, maintenance etc. All capital purchases are approved by MoD and MoF from separate funds, which would be a combination of forex reserves for up front partial payment and/or Eximp bank of the respective country, or it could Pakistan offering Russia something in return.

Helloooooooo genius... Next time read the post very slowly, also read the post to which it was a reply to. The poster made the comment about the purchase & connected it to the defence budget. Also since you have much difficult with comprehension, I did say it would have to be financed from a separate budget which is pretty much what you said.

 

[New World]

so they will dump India and go with bankrupt Pakistan.....what a logic

in the harsh sanctions and low oil prices Russians need money no matter from where it comes.. Russians are also trying to selling su-35 to china, Indonesia, Venezuela, Vietnam

Every thing will be clear on the Visit of ACM Sohail to Russia.....

There are just talks now... nothing Concrete

and from when Pakistani armed forces announced their plans clearly??

 

[RazorMC]

yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35

That resembles what I'm thinking as well.
I do not believe that the Flanker is coming to PAF for more than one reason. Neither is the JSF for that matter.

Our choice of air superiority would have to be Chinese to make the procurement feasible and possible. I would rather see the Su-35, but it just doesn't seem happening at this time.

 

[Ind4Ever]

I feel that by these talks,
Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.

Partially correct !!!Truth is Russia mounting pressure on India but not for Su30 but PakFa and Su 35 . Pakistan just playing its role for more Mi35 helicopters of for current 4 . That's the deal !! Soon US will cancel Aid and Military aid which will not be used for anti terrorism operation as Pakistan already sided with China to the point of no return !!!

 

[Bang Galore]

yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35

That bit of analysis is wrong. If India did buy more Russian jets & that prevented Russia from supplying the jets to Pakistan, there is no reason for the Americans to indulge you since you are left with no cards to play.

Even the point No.2 made is wrong. The Americans would like nothing mre than the Russians to damage relations with India. They are directly in line to benefit from any rupture in the relationship between India & Russia. Point No.1 makes the most sense.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?

Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia

By Bilal Khan

19 September 2015

It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.

For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.

This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.

How will Russia get this deal past India?

The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against whatever Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.

Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?

Another, increasingly oft-cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as a liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.

Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition of the U.S, which could benefit Russia and China in Central Asia. However, Russia and China are not expansionary powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from the U.S. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s apparent efforts.

In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash and a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).

Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?

This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities within its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.

Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):

The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively.​

It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?

In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:

The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.

… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” DefenseNews​

In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:

The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. IHS Jane’s 360​

Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?

It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.

In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.

In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.

Managing Expectations

Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors, such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath), would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.

man this has to be 7th thread on su-35s buy hub bul watan pakistanies.... good luck

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It is a terrible mistake to buy these jets. From logistical and maintenace to have so many differant jets from differant countries is a nighmare. If we go ahead we would have Chinese, French,American and Russian jets.

There is another point that needs to be kept in mind. The next jet PAF should looking to upgrade is a full blown stealth aircraft. I think we can soldier on with what we have until down the road we are in a position to move to upgrading to stealth fighters.

On the other hand buying military hardware can sometimes be manifestation of strategic placement. So this might represent the consummation of the change in Russian and Pak relation as we move toward the emerging China-Russ-Pak triangle.

Conversely India is moving toward US-Isreal-India triangle.

 

[abdulbarijan]

in short there is a big IF ..... cheers mate

There is an "if" with the deal .. but that too depends on who you talk to ... I personally support the induction from a more trusted supplier ... depends on how PAF looks at it ... what they think the jet can do for them etc etc... In short too early to say anything with conviction ....

the significance of this revelation though, is that .... a serious cooperation between Pakistan-Russia is confirmed ...

 

[Blue Marlin]

Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.

it's actually the other way around. the su-35 is more advanced than the su-30mki which will infuriate india if Pakistan were to have such a jet. as Pakistan will have a more advanced jet than india until the t-50 arrives. its meant to push india to purchase the su-35, before Pakistan get's it. and in the same time Pakistan want's it because it is in need of a long range heavy jet and a su-35 fits the bill, and is perfect to enhance defence ties between Pakistan and russia. as they say the ball is in india's court.