Taliban claim militants killed 15 US-led troops

[ameer219]

Whether CIA and your agencies funded them or not during the Soviet war, the problem is now these militia have gone rogue and are a threat to the peace of every country in the region including Afghanistan and Pakistan. So stopping them is crucial.

Yes I know sir,its time to eliminate the terrorists at first.But we have to look at the root cause of this provlem in the first place.If USA haven't funded and trained the extremist,and even if they did control Afghanistan,they should at least have a look at Afghanistan politics,to be sure its not unstable.

Despite your refusal to identify the Taliban that operated in your country and the Taliban of Afghanistan to be the same, the numerous intelligence agencies with better military, political and financial resources around the world confirm otherwise, meaning your claims of them being 2 separate organizations falls short of truth. The world community is better off than believing the words of a terrorist organization about whether or not they are separate entities.

Sir I think you have totally misunderstood me sir.I never supported the Taliban or condone their acts on 9/11 or any other global terrorism in anyway.After seeing the state of my own homeland,I want them to be eradicated as fast as possible.

Maybe I have always based my assumption and believed the Afghan Taliban who claimed that TTP and Afghan Taliban has nothing to do with each other.But either way,I still want them to be eradicated,but you are not getting my point.

My point is that US came to Afghan for a strategic purposes,and even with their entry,it has been a rough 10 years and still they have no control over the country and is in a worst state then before.And I do agree with you that they have to be wiped out.

Before you call this a false claim, let me tell you that it is a possibility and the world has a right to worry if a nuclear armed state whose army has been numerous times attacked by fundamentalist terrorist organizations, is unable to destroy terrorism off its territory and such that these terrorists will go to any extent to even murder your soldiers to acquire these weapons.

Since your stockpile is currently claimed to be safe, it is good and we all wish for it to be true. But you cannot say that the world community has no right to worry or take actions to prevent this anytime in future. NATO might or might not have their own personal interests but they have done a good job by sending a message to Taliban and other terrorist organizations.

Sir,if you look at this in a Pakistani perspective,you would have know that this is all caused by a media hype especially neighboring countries.Well at least Pakistan has done its part by allowing IAEA to have a look at all its nuclear facilities,and their security was bound to be save.

Yes I agree international community could be worried as they want to be,but firstly they must understand how a nuclear mechanism work,and must learn that Pakisatn actually translocates its nuclear wepons from time to time from one location to another.

 

[ameer219]

Well,after seeing your points,I think you have made a very fair and constructive debate,with balanced out points for both sides,So I do not see any need to really counter them,as most of the points you and I do agree only except about the credibility and invasion of Afghanistan,but well,I will just put up some points which i think you have mistunderstood me

Opium has been a problem in Afghanistan long before I was born. I'm 54. It won't go away tomorrow.

Sir,but if I am not wrong,I am sure opium was at its lowerst during Taliban rule.And man,I am honoured to be talking to a veteran

Rome, however, wasn't built in a day. Thus a process ensues that demands others save themselves FROM themselves. We'll do the best we can to help but without others fighting and dying (if necessary) for their freedom our efforts will be of little avail.

Fair enough,I will agree with you on this.

Our fault that this has occurred? I don't think so. But it's certainly the reflection of an immature political state where bloc voting is reduced to its greatest common denominator

No no,i am not blaming you guys,it has been there for a while,and furthermore I do know that Taliban refuse to allow girls to go to school,but before American invasion,they actually thought of them sending to school.

 

[ameer219]

I've looked at your article from Gilles Dorronsoro. It's old and its sourcing-both footnotes and references older. Can you provide the "independant study" supposedly referenced by Mr. Dorronsoro?
I'd like to see it please.

There are other studies that contradict your suggestion that Afghans hate the presence of ISAF troops. Please read-

ABC/BBC/ARD Afghanistan Poll: Where Things Stand 2010

This poll was finished in January 2010. Question #17 is salient.

"Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose the presence of the following groups in Afghanistan today?"

You may also review the methodology but the poll is an annual affair that reaches back some years and remains the most consistent measure of Afghan perceptions in a very difficult polling environment.

Thanks

I read the article you gave me,its a well analysed article,and it kind of contradicts my source of article.Anyway good article right there,very informative.As i have read it,62% supported presence of Americans,while out of that only 38% found gave positive ratingsbut do you know where the survery was conducted?Was it only in Kabul,and the outskirts of the city?Or is there any other areas?And since its very hard to conduct survery,as you have mentioned its a difficult polling environment,the presence of USA involved in Afghanistan or not will still remain unknown until Taliban have been officially eradicated

I thought it was useful putting it up,I will try to find you the latest independent analysis if I can,however,i think this article is quite useful in understanding,For me, I think its quite balanced out.

American Oil Concessions in Afghanistan Ghosts of Alexander

 

[S-2]

"Sir,but if I am not wrong,I am sure opium was at its lowerst during Taliban rule."

That's not true.

1999 set a world record for opium production and the taliban had shown consistent increases from the time they seized power in 1996 until then. 2000 levels were higher than all previous years but 1999.

My UNODC data makes that clear but here's another source-

The Ironies Of Afghan Opium Production-Asia Times Online Pierre-Arnaud Chouvy Sept.17, 2003

''The July 2000 edict of Mullah Omar, the ousted supreme head of the Taliban and "Commander of the Faithful", proscribed opium poppy cultivation and forced the 2001 harvest to 185 tonnes, an all-time low. That figure was all the more impressive since the country had broken a world record in 1999 when it produced 4,600 tonnes, followed by a huge 3,300 tonnes in 2000."

It was in mid-2000 that the taliban decided to change course in order to gain greater acceptability among internat'l donors. When they did so, matters changed radically at the immense suffering of afghan farmers whom had no clue what was forthcoming. Fields were eradicated overnight and many thousands of farmers and their families were economically ruined.

Relative to now it was lower but I think that you've a perfect storm of poor governance, ineffective and corrupt policing, a well-armed criminal cartel and a taliban experienced and amenable to fostering the use of opium which explains the issue. As I've indicated via the UNODC 2009 Afghanistan survey, cultivation peaked in 2007 but has since fallen by 36% (193,000 hectares to 123,000).

Over 80% of that remaining land is farmed for opium in Oruzgan, Kandahar, and Helmand. These three provinces are, without question, the heartland of the taliban. The remaining 20% is farmed in the other 31 provinces. Many if not most of those provinces are opium-free. If Oruzgan, Helmand, and Kandahar weren't a continuing problem, there'd be no serious issue here.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

"do you know where the survery was conducted?Was it only in Kabul,and the outskirts of the city?Or is there any other areas?"

Here is the polling methodology. People from all provinces were polled-both rural and urban-

ABC/BBC/ARD Polling Methodology 2010

Ameer, if you've followed the poll, it has shown a consistent degradation in positive numbers for NGOs, Americans, and NATO/ISAF. America polled in the low 80s percentile in the early years.

What it hasn't shown is a corresponding increase in positive views of the taliban. Their numbers have hovered at about 10%. 2008 was a particularly hard year for Afghans and it showed in last years data. That's consistent with the frustration felt by afghans but still shows no support for the taliban or foreign jihadists.

Thanks.

 

[ameer219]

Ameer, if you've followed the poll, it has shown a consistent degradation in positive numbers for NGOs, Americans, and NATO/ISAF. America polled in the low 80s percentile in the early years.

What it hasn't shown is a corresponding increase in positive views of the taliban. Their numbers have hovered at about 10%. 2008 was a particularly hard year for Afghans and it showed in last years data. That's consistent with the frustration felt by afghans but still shows no support for the taliban or foreign jihadists.

Well definitely have to agree with you after the Taliban has caused much trouble to the people of Afghanistan,I doubt they would show support at all.

I wonder if the rural areas is credible enough,due to the difficultiness in actually conducting the survery,but I will accept this for the time being and another survey conducted in which I have given you.

''The July 2000 edict of Mullah Omar, the ousted supreme head of the Taliban and "Commander of the Faithful", proscribed opium poppy cultivation and forced the 2001 harvest to 185 tonnes, an all-time low. That figure was all the more impressive since the country had broken a world record in 1999 when it produced 4,600 tonnes, followed by a huge 3,300 tonnes in 2000."

The Taliban decreased it in 2000 to an all time low by as much as 90% after Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic.I have read it up that the anti-campaign was so sucessful that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season. So I think some credit should be given to him,if not it would have been even higher

http://www.unodc.org/afghanistan/index.html


But even after proving me with all this facts,in which Taliban did produce opium and later decided to ban it,it still does not change the fact that after the US invasion,it has caused a tremendous increase in opium production compared to 2000 though better than 1998,as Afghanistan was facing a civil war,and needed opium to finance them.I am not being ignorant to the facts you presented or anything.

Even the source you stated,and after brief reading,I saw this

Progress in Afghanistan should not be measured only by the rising number of opium free
provinces or by the declining size of poppy fields. Counter-narcotics must be a growing
part of national efforts to improve living standards and governance and, therefore, should
be a higher priority in international assistance programmes

If USA,want to drastically reduce the whole opium drug trade,it should do some campaign just like Omar did.

 

[S-2]

"If USA,want to drastically reduce the whole opium drug trade,it should do some campaign just like Omar did."

Omar's campaign was radical both in method and speed. Overnight it economically crushed thousands of farm families whom had no prior warning of intent by a government that had heretofore ENCOURAGED its growth. Economic ruin in Afghanistan translates to impoverishment and, often, starvation.

Nobody wants to see an Afghan economy based upon opium but the transition away from such must be in a manner that facilitates a viable livlihood for Afghan farm families or it shall come to naught. That 80% of present cultivation is centered in Oruzgan, Helmand, and Kandahar exacerbates the difficulties of doing so.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your independant study from the Carnegie Endowment. As you'd twice mentioned it in your post I presumed you had it readily at hand but Mr. Dorronsoro didn't include it in his article and it wasn't a part of his footnotes nor resourced documents.

Remember, though. It will be at least one year old and much has changed.

"I wonder if the rural areas is credible enough,due to the difficultiness in actually conducting the survery..."

I have questions myself. Cluster sampling at a +/- of 3% is a somewhat worrisome margin but I've yet to see competing data that even approaches this. 95% confidence interval is appropriate for the environment's difficulties. Still, you initially worried that the poll was only taken in Kabul and its surrounding environs. Now you've other worries.

We make progress, no?

Thanks.

 

[ameer219]

BTW, I'm still waiting for your independant study from the Carnegie Endowment. As you'd twice mentioned it in your post I presumed you had it readily at hand but Mr. Dorronsoro didn't include it in his article and it wasn't a part of his footnotes nor resourced documents.

I first read it up on Wiki,so from there,I try to find an independent studies which he conducts am still trying to find,and Sorry,I am unable to find the direct link to his independent studies,but since I am out of time right now,I will just give you the link to 6 of his analysis,and one of his survery would most probably be in this link.If I really could not find his link,then I would accept your analysis.

Regions/Afghanistan/Publications - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Nobody wants to see an Afghan economy based upon opium but the transition away from such must be in a manner that facilitates a viable livlihood for Afghan farm families or it shall come to naught. That 80% of present cultivation is centered in Oruzgan, Helmand, and Kandahar exacerbates the difficulties of doing so

Even so,regardless of consequences,he still managed to bring down the drug trading,I suggest under the link I gave you,there is one on nacrotics,He gave a good analysis right there too.

I have questions myself. Cluster sampling at a +/- of 3% is a somewhat worrisome margin but I've yet to see competing data that even approaches this. 95% confidence interval is appropriate for the environment's difficulties. Still, you initially worried that the poll was only taken in Kabul and its surrounding environs. Now you've other worries.

We make progress, no

Till that,I will take your sources for the time being till I find my sources.I have to study for my Biomedical examinations,I would not reply soon

 

[ameer219]

You know what,I think I will give up to you on this one,I will depend on your search analysis,I am unable to find it,and till I do not have the sources,I will have to scrape my statement due to lack of evidence,till then,We will just deal on nacrotics and the aim of USA on Afghanistan

 

[SparklingCrescent]

Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki

Bombing of Tokyo
killed 100,000 people

and many many more killed by u.s.a bombing in the world the nation of the brave bomb bomb bomb and bomb some more and when all esle fails bomb again.

good post... something I found a few days ago:



Iraq to sue US, Britain over depleted uranium bombs

Monday, February 1st, 2010

Iraq’s Ministry for Human Rights will file a lawsuit against Britain and the US over their use of depleted uranium bombs in Iraq, an Iraqi minister says.

Iraq’s Minister of Human Rights, Wijdan Mikhail Salim, told Assabah newspaper that the lawsuit will be launched based on reports from the Iraqi ministries of science and the environment.

According to the reports, during the first year of the US and British invasion of Iraq, both countries had repeatedly used bombs containing depleted uranium.

According to Iraqi military experts, the US and Britain bombed the country with nearly 2,000 tonnes of depleted uranium bombs during the early years of the Iraq war.

Atomic radiation has increased the number of babies born with defects in the southern provinces of Iraq.

Iraqi doctors say they’ have been struggling to cope with the rise in the number of cancer cases —especially in cities subjected to heavy U-S and British bombardment.

The high rate of birth defects and cancer cases will move in the coming years to the central and northern provinces of Iraq since the radiation may penetrate the soil and water by air.

The ministry will seek compensation for the victims of these bombs.

 

[FreekiN]

OH GOD, WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP POSTING PICTURES LIKE THAT. i think i just threw up a little.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

OH GOD, WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP POSTING PICTURES LIKE THAT. i think i just threw up a little.

u shudnt be throwing up at stuff like this.. Jus look at this babys innocent face, wat has he done???? You shud be crying.. this is wat U.S terrorist do when they are loosing a war...

 

[Thomas]

u shudnt be throwing up at stuff like this.. Jus look at this babys innocent face, wat has he done???? You shud be crying.. this is wat U.S terrorist do when they are loosing a war...

He should be free to post it. but it should be in the sticky thread already started on the subject. A mod should move it.

 

[FireFighter]

Afghans have all the right to be free and not under invasion from another country and freedom is something I strongly support. However, what I want to point out that they weren't even so much as near the word freedom under Taliban either, long before the NATO-led invasion.

Unfortunately, here and generally Pakistanis have positive emotions with respect to Taliban which is very regrettable.

So you think US/Coalition have the moral authority to dictate what freedom means for the Afghans?

First of all, they are not "our coalition buddies" as Switzerland is not part of any coalition, military or political. Amusing to see that rather than admitting the fact of torture of minorities, you deviate the topic of asking the coalition to have no moral high ground; mind you, the coalition arrived in Afghanistan in 2001... the minorities were being oppressed and harassed much before any foreign troops set foot in Afghanistan post-Soviet invasion.

Minorities were being oppressed and harassed before Talibans came to power. Afghanistan is a Tribal societies and they have thousands of years of history of inter-tribal rivalries which is nothing new even today, b/c its embedded in their culture.

Heck minorities get oppressed and harassed in the world's largest democracy, India. Even the first world countries such as the US, blacks are still treated as dirt in much of the US.

So what's your point? You think waging war upon a country is still justifiable on that pretext?

By the way, neither does Pakistan have any moral standing with a whole lot of equally bad allegations against your country by various countries of sponsoring terrorism. You will want to rubbish these allegations as a Pakistanis but in the eyes of neutral countries and the UN, you are in no different boat than the accusations that you make against the coalition. Hence you are as much "innocent until proven guilty" as much as the coalition is. Like it or not.

Can't you aim straight and stick to the topic for once?

I can see you're running out of ammo here that you once again decide to jump around to other topics.

Keep Pakistan out of this discussion.


This thread is about Talibs/Afghans killing the occupiers.

Your post has been reported for using derogatory speech and using personal attacks. UN might be ineffective in getting to many solutions, but it will never stand in support of extremist terrorism and those who admire and abet in it. Wash your mouth next time when you reply. Wars are not always white and black and there is always some amount of grey in it which I agree with.

I could careless if you report me or not because that is not going to change my opinion about mentally and intellectually weak people who justify foreign occupations and killings of innocents for some Imperialist/Colonialists objectives.

Now that you work for the UN, It seems you have internalized mental slavery to the colonialist/imperialists.

I sincerely hope and pray that you get out of this mental slavery ,

Even a simpleton will know that no religion promotes violence to the level Taliban does against ordinary citizens and by becoming a trouble for the entire world community, Taliban has brought this upon itself and the innocent citizens of Afghanistan.

Once again, blaming the victim for mischief. Do you also think the Palestinians brought the Israeli led genocides upon themselves? Jews in Nazi Germany caused brought upon their own extermination?

Wow!! How politically correct..

Last time I checked, Afghans never attacked another country. None of the alleged 911 suspects or masterminds were Afghans. So why are they being punished for crimes they never committed?

And What entire world community are you talking on behalf of? Which country have the Afghan people invaded in the last 100 years? Who are the Afghans giving trouble to?

Honestly you're not even making an ounce of sense. You're just regurgitating idiotic CNN headlines, nothing more. Your response is devoid of principles and intelligence.

I really hope you see the shortcomings of your response and come back with a better reply.

Until then,

Buh'Bye

 

[FreekiN]

u shudnt be throwing up at stuff like this.. Jus look at this babys innocent face, wat has he done???? You shud be crying.. this is wat U.S terrorist do when they are loosing a war...

If you tell me about it, i'll cry. But shoving it in my face isn't helping.