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T 90 AM> a option better than t 90 for indian army?

You are the first Indian to call Russian tanks Russian junk. I'm proud of you that you see the light. India should look into getting some M1A3 tanks and ditch everything else.

Read my previous post about the T-90s performance, it set an unofficial record in targets hit all this at ranges of up to 1500-2500m and while moving 25km/h. Also the Abrams was unable to penatrate a T-72 fitted with Kontakt-5 ERA.

A little research by your part as well as Bagee's would be nice, it's clear that neither of you have any idea what you are talking about.
 
Read my previous post about the T-90s performance, it set an unofficial record in targets hit all this at ranges of up to 1500-2500m and while moving 25km/h. Also the Abrams was unable to penatrate a T-72 fitted with Kontakt-5 ERA.

A little research by your part as well as Bagee's would be nice, it's clear that neither of you have any idea what you are talking about.

Can you be more specific as to which version of Abram tank and what kind of guns. Is it M256A1 or M68A1 guns? thanks. Also, links to your claims would be appreciated.
 
T 90s are junks,there is no denying.
REGARDS.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------

Can you be more specific as to which version of Abram tank and what kind of guns. Is it M256A1 or M68A1 guns? thanks. Also, links to your claims would be appreciated.
His link is wikipedia.
REGARDS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
T 90s are junks,there is no denying.
REGARDS.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

So why is India making T-90s as the primary tank of India instead of the domestically produced tanks? The military still have no trust in India made tanks.
 
Can you be more specific as to which version of Abram tank and what kind of guns. Is it M256A1 or M68A1 guns? thanks. Also, links to your claims would be appreciated.

The gun type is not specified all that is know is that it was the Abrams A1 and it could not penatrate the T-72 fitted with ERA, the link was also posted in post #14.

T 90s are junks,there is no denying.
REGARDS.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

You to should read post #14 the only junk is the rumors that Rakshak spread, my link detailing the T-90's performance in other exercises destroys his credibility.
 
So why is India making T-90s as the primary tank of India instead of the domestically produced tanks? The military still have no trust in India made tanks.

Simple,because Arjun mk1 came too late and that's why IA had to procure T90S to counter Pakistan's T80UDs.Now the much improved Arjun MkII is ready,so there is simply no point to order more Arjun MkIs.In future much greater number of Arjun MkII will be ordered.
REGARDS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
The gun type is not specified all that is know is that it was the Abrams A1 and it could not penatrate the T-72 fitted with ERA, the link was also posted in post #14.



You to should read post #14 the only junk is the rumors that Rakshak spread, my link detailing the T-90's performance in other exercises destroys his credibility.

Newer KE penetrators like the US M829A2 and now M829A3, have been improved to defeat the armor design of Kontakt-5. The M829A2 was the immediate response, developed in part to take on the new armor bricks. The M829A3 is a further improvement of this as well and designed to fight future armor protection methods.

From the same link in your post 14
 
Newer KE penetrators like the US M829A2 and now M829A3, have been improved to defeat the armor design of Kontakt-5. The M829A2 was the immediate response, developed in part to take on the new armor bricks. The M829A3 is a further improvement of this as well and designed to fight future armor protection methods.

From the same link in your post 14

And did you think that Kontakt-5 was the only ERA? T-90's are now being offered with Relikt which is superior to the Kontakt-5. And do you believe that the M829A2 or M829A3 will have the same results if the Kontakt-5 is fitted onto a T-90 as opposed to a T-72? A better question, do you think that the M829A2 or M829A3 will be successful when a T-90 is fitted with Relikt? Point in case, the Kontakt-5 was able to defeat DU rounds from an Abrams A1, if a T-72 was able to do that than a T-90 fitted with either Kontakt-5 or Relikt will be difficult if not impossible for most tanks to penetrate.

In terms of protection the T-90 is amongst the best, in terms of rate of fire and accuracy again it is amongst the best, I have yet to hear of another tank hitting 7 targets in 54 seconds at ranges of 1500-2500m while traveling at 25km/h. The T-90 also has the ability to fire long range ATGM's while jamming enemy ATGM's. The T-90 offers capabilities that no other tank offers, people can keep insulting the T-90 all they want but it only shows their ignorance, most people are clueless about the T-90's capabilities and even more clueless about the tanks performance in trials.
 
Newer KE penetrators like the US M829A2 and now M829A3, have been improved to defeat the armor design of Kontakt-5. The M829A2 was the immediate response, developed in part to take on the new armor bricks. The M829A3 is a further improvement of this as well and designed to fight future armor protection methods.

From the same link in your post 14

I think you don't realize that Relikt or Kaktus was developed immediately as a response to those new penetrators.... after US got their hand on Kontakt-5.
 
Read my previous post about the T-90s performance, it set an unofficial record in targets hit all this at ranges of up to 1500-2500m and while moving 25km/h. Also the Abrams was unable to penatrate a T-72 fitted with Kontakt-5 ERA.

A little research by your part as well as Bagee's would be nice, it's clear that neither of you have any idea what you are talking about.

T90 is 50 tonn class, Arjuna is 60 tonn class. The trial was happen in front of everyone and data shows that Arjuna was not lesser than T90S in any area. Infact it overpower T90S in some area (Read the review, its available on google).

If Arjuna is better than T90, it doesn't mean that T90 is bad. T90 is one of the formidable platform. For India T90 is very good deal.



why not to induct more arjuns may be half the no. of t 72 but dear friends they will be more than twice as effective leave and come over this russian junk...... really these all tanks are junk when compared to modern tanks like merkava or leopard or even the luckrack ............

T90S was evaluated in 1995. and deal was finalized in 2005. if you want to compare it with Merkava , please compare Merkava III rather than comparing with Merk IV. Abarams is 65-70 tonn Tank, kindly don't compare mango with orange. Do soem home work and let me know which 50 Tonn Tank is better than T90???


The tank you have quoted, all are 65 tonn class


You are the first Indian to call Russian tanks Russian junk. I'm proud of you that you see the light. India should look into getting some M1A3 tanks and ditch everything else.


Then he is wrong, Russsian tanks are not Junk. T90 is as capable as other Tanks. And more important its one of the best MBT in Asia.
 
History of the T-90

T-90 MBT constructional originates from T-72 (object 172M), which was introduced to the Soviet Army in August 7th 1973, and which mass production in Uralwagonzawod (UWZ) in Nizim Tagile was started in 1974. T-90 is the effect of modernization of T-72B (object 184), accepted to the army in 1985.

As the result, in the second half of the 80s, T-72BM was created, which differed from its predecessor the use of 2nd generation reactive armor: build in – in the chassis and turret, add-on – turret, chassis side. This armor allows to increase the resistance against HEAT projectiles and sabots. Apart from some small modifications, the vehicle almost did not differ much in combat characteristics from its predecessor. Production of this tank started in 1988.

The main constructors of Ural Construction Bureau of Transport Medium Construction Industry (UKBTM) at that time - Vladimir Potkin, knew that at the moment when T-72BM was constructed it conceded (mainly in firepower) not only to the already deployed T-80s but mainly to the western counterparts. The main shortage of the T-72 family comparing to other soviet and western constructions of that time was the lack of an advanced, automated fire control system. Although T-72B employed a simple but effective analog counter 1A40-1, but it was outdated at turn of the 80s not mentioning the tanks of the near future. Also it was very important to improve the night firing capabilities which was at that time quite limited by the use of active night vision equipments. As the result, it was decided to initialize a broad modernization of T-72BM, which main goal was to increase the combat effectiveness of the tank. Fist of all, it was recognized the need of a new, advanced fire control system (FCS), (in the Russian term, FCS with a high degree of automation is described as “fire control complex”), which could give guarantee a combat effectiveness no worse than T-80U. It was impossible to think about a dramatic increase at that period, because apart from the well proven 1A45 Irtysz FCS on T-80U and T-80UD, there was nothing else available. Therefore the decision of the installation of 1A45 on T-72BM was not a surprise. The bright side of this was the much lower cost of modernization, shorter time between R&D and greater unification with the equipments already in service in the Soviet Army. The FCS only required relatively few changes to work with the autoloader which was different in design with the one used by T-80U/UD (in T-72, projectiles and satchels are stored horizontally, and the loading completes in 2 cycles, but in T-80 the satchels are placed vertically and the projectiles horizontally and the loading ends with 1 cycle). The modernized FCS is designated as 1A45T

In January 1989, the prototype of the tank, designated as Object 188 began its tests. Within 1.5 years the tank was tested intensively on test ranges near Moscow, in Siberia, middle Asia and factory test range of Uralwagonzawod, often in extreme weather conditions and terrain, also near the limit of the machine. At the end of the 60s and in the 70s, Soviet panzer equipments are usually tested on a test trail of 10000km which includes different terrain and climates of the huge country. When the tests of T-90 began, it was impossible to organize such experimental tests, but still the prototypes ran more than 14000 km – the mileage of the capital repair, without serious defects and breakdowns. The program starts with driving on asphalt/cement trails till the fuel was depleted. Nota bene, driving on hard surfaces at high speed is very hard for tracked vehicles due to the strong vibrations on the carriage elements and onboard equipments. During this test, with rare stops to change crews, without turning off the engine, the tank drove more than 700km.

Imitation of leaking coolant during long marches – situation often seen with combat damage or service by low qualified crews, was also included in the test. During this test, the crew tanked only 35 liters of coolant instead of the required 90. In normal conditions, emergency signaling and engine cut-off systems would not allow further exploitation of the vehicle. However during tests all even unlikely events must be tested. In this case the engine survived the test despite running at maximum temperate for a prolonged period.

The experimental trail was carefully chosen – the harder the better – there were sections with many bumps which should be covered at high speed, and some snowdrifts a meter high. Even on segments like this, the mean speed was 35-40 km/h. During the trials in Siberia, the tank overcame sections on which the depth of snow were 1.1-1.3m. On ranges in middle Asia the temperature was 50C in shadows, and the trail was covered by loess which squeezed into everywhere, specially in the eyes and lungs of the tankers. During the drive, the dust went up tens of meters in the air and the crews could not see further than the barrel. The tank must retain is full capabilities under these conditions. If the air filter system fails, the engine will instantaneously fail, since it’s working at high temperature. The tanks ran 500km daily, equivalent of 10-12h. During the run on deserts they also tested the possibilities of using various fuels: diesel, benzene, kerosene also jet fuel. No problems were encountered and the mean speed on desert using benzene was 35km and 43km with kerosene and diesel.

The official trial program included also deep water fording. The tank drove at the bottom of 5m deep pool and the crew would turn of the engine. The tank will remain under water for an hour to check the tightness of the elements of the Sztora electro-optical countermeasure system and other equipments outside the tank.

No less important than drive testing, or maybe even more important, were the armament testing. They were done partially during the drive testing. For example during the marches , the fire control system was turned on for the entire march which meant 8-10 hours of work often at maximum load rarely seen in combat. The canon stabilization system was also on and often met the maximum angle, hitting the limiter. Every 2-3 minutes, the layer turned the turret 360 deg at the maximum angular speed. All of these in the desert or in the Siberian cold.

Firing test were conducted using all available ammunitions, in different environment and firing distance. During the official test, 24 guided missiles were fired at a distance of 4-5 km, with a hit each time. The firing of other types of ammunitions were also successful. During the tests more than 2000 projectiles and missiles were fired through the gun, and the barrels had to be changed twice.

A very important phase was the firing resistance tests. There are no information on the results of the tests, but it is know that the tank was fired upon from different distances with various types of weapons, concentration on the more vulnerable parts of the vehicle. During the mine resistance tests, an equivalent of the largest western antitank mine was detonated under one of the tracks. After the explosion, the tank was repaired by the crew in the field.

After the completion of the full test, on 27th of March 1991, with the decision of the minister of defense and defense industry, the tank was recommended for acceptance to enter service. However due to the politicians’ inability decide and the information of T-72s performance during Desert Storm, the final decision for acceptance was not made.

The experience from Iraq was regarded so important, that modification was needed in object 188. Although the Iraqi T-72 were destroyed by concentrated attacks by different weapon – including heavy artillery (including shipborn) and airforce but not the typical anti-tank weapons (according to M. Helda, Warhead hit distribution on main battle tanks in the Gulf War, Journal of Battlefield Technology vol 3, no 1/2000, only 14 T-72 retained direct combat damage). KB UWZ decided to improve the protection of object 188. This lead to the installation of the T5zU-1 Sztora-1 electro-optical system, which was able to actively counteract modern anti-tank media. Again, additional testing began, On 30th of September 1992 first tank of Object 188 from the trial series was sent for factory trials and on the 5th of October 1992, the government of The Russian Federation issued decree 759-58 which accepted T-90S to service in Russian Army. Before official acceptance to service, it was decided that based on the official documents “tank T-72B modified (rus. Usowierszenstowannyj)” will be designated as T-72BU, however the president of Russia, Boris Jelcyn, recommended a completely new name T-90.

According the main constructor Vladirmir Potkin, T-90 was created based on the ample experience from many years of trials and exploitation of T-72 family. The use of newest equipment and protection measures gave the export version T-90S an advantage in combat effectiveness of 1.93-2.1 over T-72M1 (depending on the equipments on board). For comparison, the analogical ratio between T-72S against T-72M1 is 1.59 : 1. There are no exact data for the T-90 of the Russian Army against T-72A and T-72B, but its obvious that it is comparable or better than the export versions. Nota bene that the base construction had the predisposition for gradual improvement with little financial input.


Among the available Russian modernized tanks, T-90S can be regarded as the most successful for the superior concept of the program which is good combination of high battle effectiveness, price and durability.

T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
 
Paradoxically the most probable foe of T-90 on the battlefield could be another vehicle which roots are deep into the USST, it is of course the Ukrainian T-84 (T-80UD) in the hands of the Pakistani army. There is no point to thoroughly compare the two tanks. Their characteristics in many aspects are similar if not the same. Both have analogical protection, the same weapon system except the autoloader. Most of the tanks delivered to Pakistan by Ukraine even have guns and also 60% of their parts made by USSR. Onl y the last and small party of vehicles delivered to Pakistan were build mainly in Ukraine. T-84 ant T-90 are different mainly due to the engine and transmissions.

Apart from the Ukrainian vehicles, potential enemies of T-90S in the economic aspect are the American Abrams M1A1HA and M1A2, German Leopard 2A5/6 and the French Leclerc.

Today, one of the most important factor of combat effectiveness of a tank is its immunity to enemy fire. Against the stereotypes, the comparison of resistance of tanks by listing the thickness of their armor is impossible today: the armor is usually multi-layer and usually are inclined at different angles. Presently the use of DU in the armor (M1A1HA) or integrated reactive armor also make the comparison impossible. Only one method is left – real life firing test using various weapons.

According to the American press and official briefings, the frontal armor of M1A1 displayed complete immunity to fire in the Gulf War I in 1991. It withstood the direct impact of Soviet APFSDS-T of 3BM9 and 3BM12 types, which were withdrawn from service in the Soviet Army in 1973 and later vastly exported, from a distance of more than 1500m. Newer rounds were not fired at the Abrams.

The frontal armor of T-90 were tested with projectiles of 125mm but far more advanced – sabots of type 3BM42 and HEAT charge 3BK29. Further more, in Feb 1995 in the epicenter of Russian press and TV campaign regarding the weakness of Russian tanks proven by the first Chechen wae, in CNII BTWT in Kubinka a special panzer equipment demonstration was organized. During which a T-90 was test fired at by another tank and 200m with 6 rounds and later drove off the position on its own. The tests employed the newest sabot and HEAT rounds available at that moment. The broadsides of the tank were also fired upon by RPGs and in this case the main armor was not penetrated and only the side skirts were damaged. Therefore I do not hesitate to claim that the armor of T-90 and Abrams are comparable if fired upon by various rounds and RPGs. However the Russian solution is much cheaper and does not pose an environmental hazard in case of damage.

At this moment You must ask why tens of Russian tanks burned in Grozny in 1995? The answer is simple – the advancement of tanks without the assistance of infantry with the ratio between the tanks and anti-tank weapons of 1:7 is suicide. Normally (and this is the rule) the ratio should be reversed. Impact of 5-6 RPGs at almost the same region of the tank, which has no reactive armor unquestionably will lead to its destruction. Additionally the training of the crews were poor which many just met in the day of engagement. In situations where commanders could guarantee the proper usage of tanks in urban areas and the co-operation of mechanized infantry with the support of artillery, the lost was minimal or none.

There is also another type of weapon extremely dangerous for modern tanks – guided anti-tank weapons, capable of penetrating side armor, upper section of chassis and turret, some also can defeat the frontal armor of the newest tanks. In this aspect the T-90s defense system have a clear edge against the western vehicles. This is given by its smaller silhouette, and also the electro-optical counteraction system Sztora-1, which T-90 received as the first mass-produced tank. It effectively secures the tank against guided and self-guided missiles with IR tracker or with semi-active laser guidance like TOW, HOT, Milan, Dragon, Maverick (some versions), Hellfire (some versions), Copperhead etc by generating active jamming. During trials more than 100 missiles of various type were fired upon the tank but none of them hit the target. The sensors installed on T-90 allows the detection of laser of the rangefinder or pointer and in a few microseconds it automatically fire 3D17 smoke grenades, which covers the tank in aerosol cloud and turns the turret in the direction of the threat. Therefore the moment the enemy layer presses the ranging button, a well trained T-90 crew could mask themselves, change the position and begin firing at the unmasked enemy.

The effectiveness of the T-90s smooth-barreled 125mm canon and the majority of the western 120mm canons are comparatively equal. The penetrability of the 3BM42 under-calibered ammunition with wolfram cores is not inferior to the American M829 with DU core. There is also a new variant of the Russian projectile with 20% increased penetrability. Apart from this, Russia also tested DU sabots. However for ecological and crew protection reasons, they were not mass produced and were left in storage for “black hours”.

An important inadequacy of the western ammunition (apart from the French Leclerc) is the lack of HE rounds and their function is taken by HEAT which have a low shrapnel coefficient. T-84 and T-90 excel in this regard, having effective HE rounds 3OF26. Russian tanks can also stock HE ammunitions with programmable fuse, which explodes at predefined point in the trajectory dedicated to combat soft targets in open fields and helicopters.

The survivability of tanks on modern battlefields depends greatly on the capability of destroying the target with the first shot, as there might not be a chance to fire the second time. Therefore the effectiveness of the fire control system is of great importance and this was also the priority of the designers of T-84 and T-90. One of the most advanced FCS in the worlds – Savan 20 of Leclerc is capable of firing upon 5 targets in 1 minute with a probability of hit no less than 0.8 at a distance of 2000m at halt, and 1500m while moving. This is excellent result which is really hard to beat. The record made by a Leopard-2 crew during a NATO exercise was 6 targets in a minute.

It is widely regarded that electronic and electro-optical observation and aiming instruments of Soviet tanks and IFVs are not modern. In the recent years however, much progress was made, an example is the FCS of T-90 1A45T which is comparable to the western counterparts. During one of the displays, T-90 struck 7 targets in 54 seconds. All were at the distance between 1500-2500m and the tank was on the move at 25km/h. While returning to position, the layer gave the control to the commander who used the gunner mode to fire to the rear of the vehicle and hit 4 more targets.

The possibility of combating armored targets above 3km is regarded as great success in the west. Almost everyone heard about how the Americans shot Iraqi tanks from 3.5km with Abrams during Desert Storm. However why did they fight at such a distance? For sure it was avoid getting too close to the Iraqi T-72s as it was not sure what they were capable of. Penetration of frontal armor of tanks like T-72M at such distance is also questionable. Therefore they shot to the Iraqis from the side and the rear, before they can see them – they had no thermovision. Also they did not always hit the target and even rarer with first round as the press reported.

For T-90 a duel at 5km is a standard, of course firing ATGMs from the barrel. Penetrability of the rocket is independent of the distance to the target and it has high immunity to interference. The precision of fire is almost absolute, firing can be also conducted while driving and additionally the firing sequence does not require the layer to acquire special skills. An example is during the official trials of T-90, all of the ammunitions were fired by young conscripts who just finished training. All of the rounds – 24 of them, hit targets at a distance of 4-5km. During my carrier as lecture in the military academy, I conducted an experiment related to the FCS. I convinced a 15 year old girl (the daughter of one of the workers at the polygon) to sit as the layer. For 5 minutes I explained her what she has to do, later we loaded a live round of 9M119. After the permission for fire, the girl easily detected the target 3.5km away, fired and hit the target. An experienced layer is capable to precisely guide the missile – f.ex. to hit a open hatch or anything else.

For many years, western tanks were superior to the soviet counterparts in night observation equipments – night-vision and thermo-vision. Today this not the case, T-90 is not inferior to the western tanks. During trials in India it was demonstrated that equipments installed on the Russian tanks are capable to observe at night up to 3000m, even in complicated weather conditions.

Another important parameter is mobility, in this aspect Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclercs which are powered by engines with 1500hp were superior to T-90 which initially had only 840hp (T-90 – 18hp/ton, Leopard 2A4 – 27hp/ton). The power per unit of the western tanks were definitely much higher than T-90. However as the result of modernization, the mass of Abrams and Leopards increased while the power of the engine remained the same, where as the mass of T-90 remained constant but the engine increased the power – the engine installed in the newest series of T-90 W-92S2 reaches 1000hp. Today the power per unit of these tanks became quite similar. Even with the old engine, T-90 demonstrated at Abu Dabi what only T-80U can do with its turbine of 1100hp.

Indians had the chance to test the tank with the new engine, and according to them the rated power is actually 1100hp. Which was not far from the truth as during the factory trials this engine gave a constant 1200hp. Therefore the new power per unit of T-90 is satisfactory (21.5hp/ton against 24hp/ton for Leopard 2 A5).

In case of range, then the Russian tank is superior to the westerns. More powerful engines of the western tanks also have much higher fuel consumption. T-90S with its 1600 liters can cover upto 740km.
Therefore, the comparison of basic parameters of T-90 to the western counterparts of NATO can lead to a conclusion that T-90 is not inferior to them, and is superior in several aspects like firing power, ability to traverse terrain and easy maintenance.
 
i hope this thread has helped members to gain new knowledge about T 90 AM
 
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