T-50 Fighter To Feature Higher Stealth Capabilities

[Gessler]

I always knew that the PAK-FA was a LO and not VLO aircraft.

This should really help Pakistan as it can induct VLO J-31 and have a massive advantage over the PAK-FA.

The better J-31 will help Pakistan offset the Indian numerical strength in the PAK-FA.

F-16 has much lesser RCS than F-15. Does that mean F-16 can take out F-15s like a pro? Nope.

The reverse is more likely.

 

[monitor]

J-31

 

[UKBengali]

F-16 has much lesser RCS than F-15. Does that mean F-16 can take out F-15s like a pro? Nope.

The reverse is more likely.

F-16 RCS is around 1/10th that of a F-15, which means detection range is reduced to 56% via-a-vis F-15. This lesser detection range is made up for by the much larger F-15 radar and/or AWACs support.

J-31 is VLO and is likely to come in at around 100 times less RCS than PAK-FA, which means that detection range will only be 31% as that of PAK-FA. Larger radar for PAK_FA and/or AWACs support is not going to make up the difference here.

 

[akand bharat]

J-31 is VLO and is likely to come in at around 100 times less RCS than PAK-FA

Do you Have any expert view to sustain your claims If not then Keep your Fan boyish claim too yourself Before Posting Any thing Into Public Forums

 

[UKBengali]

Do you Have any expert view to sustain your claims If not then Keep your Fan boyish claim too yourself Before Posting Any thing Into Public Forums

Do you the basics of VLO design? 80% of stealth is shaping.

Just one look at the PAK-FA and J-31 and we can easily tell which is VLO and which is not.

Russia for one reason or another has not gone for a VLO design.

 

[akand bharat]

Do you the basics of VLO design? 80% of stealth is shaping.

Just one look at the PAK-FA and J-31 and we can easily tell which is VLO and which is not.

Russia for one reason or another has not gone for a VLO design.

I Know what VLO Is And But Stealth is Not only Depend on Shaping or Design ? it also Depends on Material In which Fighter Is Framed Its Not Like Western fighters Which are Purely Framed in Stealth Material Rather Like Chineese fighters which are Stealth Coated And Have Limited Stealth Properties.Plus Modern Avionics

 

[Gessler]

F-16 RCS is around 1/10th that of a F-15, which means detection range is reduced to 56% via-a-vis F-15. This lesser detection range is made up for by the much larger F-15 radar and/or AWACs support.

J-31 is VLO and is likely to come in at around 100 times less RCS than PAK-FA, which means that detection range will only be 31% as that of PAK-FA. Larger radar for PAK_FA and/or AWACs support is not going to make up the difference here.

The difference between PAK-FA and J-31 is pretty much like that between F-15 and F-16.

PAK-FA radar with GaN technology (5x times more power than normal AESA T/R modules), large aperture
and beamsteering agility will outstrip even F-22 radar. It easily offsets J-31's shaping. And you seem to forget
PAK-FA has L-band AESA radars on the wings which are way more effective at detecting stealthy targets
at long range than any X-band radar - although they have lesser resolution. Also there are side-facing radars.

Add to that PAK-FA's EODAS-like IRST apertures, interferometry-based passive tracking capability,
give it 100% passive operation capability when needed. Meaning, it can detect, track & possibly kill
you without even using radar. Stealth isn't just about RCS, it's about IR stealth and electromagnetic
stealth as well.

PAK-FA can carry 8 missiles in internal bays, J-31 carries only 50% that much, 4 missiles.

In terms of performance, J-31 is a dwarf compared to PAK-FA.

PAK-FA will get the Saturn Product-30 turbofans which are extremely powerful at 176 kN each, have
a very high T/W ratio and are Variable Cycle Engines (VCE). They have potential to become the most
advanced jet engines on any fighter aircraft in the forseeable future.

PAK-FA will even have F22-like shaped nozzles to reduce IR signature.

J-31 having 100 times lesser RCS than PAK-FA is not realistically possible. Shaping is important, but
only part of the game. Have you seen YF-23 Black Widow? It was actually more stealthy than
YF-22, despite it's top portion, air ducts, and engine fan blades being visible.

That tells you a lot about PAK-FA logic.

Just one sentence: The Russians are building PAK-FA to take out F-22 and F-35. Shenyang J-31 is
not a match.

 

[kaykay]

Do you the basics of VLO design? 80% of stealth is shaping.

Just one look at the PAK-FA and J-31 and we can easily tell which is VLO and which is not.

Russia for one reason or another has not gone for a VLO design.

Russian designer is talking about 'average' rcs of whole aircraft which is 0.1 m2 which is considered very good. Average rcs of whole aircraft is much higher than frontal rcs of that aircraft.

 

[UKBengali]

The difference between PAK-FA and J-31 is pretty much like that between F-15 and F-16.

PAK-FA radar with GaN technology (5x times more power than normal AESA T/R modules), large aperture
and beamsteering agility will outstrip even F-22 radar. It easily offsets J-31's shaping. And you seem to forget
PAK-FA has L-band AESA radars on the wings which are way more effective at detecting stealthy targets
at long range than any X-band radar - although they have lesser resolution. Also there are side-facing radars.

Add to that PAK-FA's EODAS-like IRST apertures, interferometry-based passive tracking capability,
give it 100% passive operation capability when needed. Meaning, it can detect, track & possibly kill
you without even using radar. Stealth isn't just about RCS, it's about IR stealth and electromagnetic
stealth as well.

PAK-FA can carry 8 missiles in internal bays, J-31 carries only 50% that much, 4 missiles.

In terms of performance, J-31 is a dwarf compared to PAK-FA.

PAK-FA will get the Saturn Product-30 turbofans which are extremely powerful at 176 kN each, have
a very high T/W ratio and are Variable Cycle Engines (VCE). They have potential to become the most
advanced jet engines on any fighter aircraft in the forseeable future.

PAK-FA will even have F22-like shaped nozzles to reduce IR signature.

J-31 having 100 times lesser RCS than PAK-FA is not realistically possible. Shaping is important, but
only part of the game. Have you seen YF-23 Black Widow? It was actually more stealthy than
YF-22, despite it's top portion, air ducts, and engine fan blades being visible.

That tells you a lot about PAK-FA logic.

Just one sentence: The Russians are building PAK-FA to take out F-22 and F-35. Shenyang J-31 is
not a match.

Forget what the Russians say as they will say anything to boast about their product.

What counts is that they themselves have admitted that it is only a LO aircraft - something that even laymen have been saying for years just by looking at the shape of it. It is a fact that 80% of stealth is shaping.

As for YF-23, it was always designed to be more stealthy than the YF-22 and it LOOKS far more stealthy than PAK-FA. The US decided to go with the more manoeuvrable YF-22 in the end as they probably felt that not all air-combat will be BVR.

The F-22 looks stealthy, the J-20 looks stealthy, the J-31 looks stealthy, the F-35 looks stealthy but not as much as the F-22, J-20 and J-31 whereas only some stealth features are visible on the PAK-FA.

Russian designer is talking about 'average' rcs of whole aircraft which is 0.1 m2 which is considered very good. Average rcs of whole aircraft is much higher than frontal rcs of that aircraft.

Do you honestly think the PAK-FA has the same level of stealth as the J-31?

Let us be neutral here. The PAK-FA is nothing more than a stealthified SU-27.

Russia decided to create their own version of the Boeing "Silent Eagle" but with internal weapons bays.

 

[kaykay]

Forget what the Russians say as they will say anything to boast about their product.

What counts is that they themselves have admitted that it is only a LO aircraft - something that even laymen have been saying for years just by looking at the shape of it. It is a fact that 80% of stealth is shaping.

As for YF-23, it was always designed to be more stealthy than the YF-22 and it LOOKS far more stealthy than PAK-FA. The US decided to go with the more manoeuvrable YF-22 in the end as they probably felt that not all air-combat will be BVR.

The F-22 looks stealthy, the J-20 looks stealthy, the J-31 looks stealthy, the F-35 looks stealthy but not as much as the F-22, J-20 and J-31 whereas only some stealth features are visible on the PAK-FA.



Do you honestly think the PAK-FA has the same level of stealth as the J-31?

Let us be neutral here. The PAK-FA is nothing more than a stealthified SU-27.

Russia decided to create their own version of the Boeing "Silent Eagle" but with internal weapons bays.

You didnt read Gessler's post well. Stealth aircrafts have very little to do against PAK-FA with their stealth. It will have 4 AESA radars(out of them 2 will be L-Band radars especially for stealth detection and main frontal radar will be arguebly most powerful X-band AESA radar mounted on any fighter aircraft) and 1 powerful IRST.

 

[UKBengali]

You didnt read Gessler's post well. Stealth aircrafts have very little to do against PAK-FA with their stealth. It will have 4 AESA radars(out of them 2 will be L-Band radars especially for stealth detection and main frontal radar will be arguebly most powerful X-band AESA radar mounted on any fighter aircraft) and 1 powerful IRST.

L-Band AESA radars will not allow you to fire at the stealth aircraft - only the general location. While the PAK-FA is trying to get into a firing position the opposing stealth fighter will have locked on and fired at the PAK-FA.

As for IRST, by the looks of it the new J-20 prototype also has an IRST as well. I am sure that the J-31 will also sport it in one of the prototypes yet to fly.

If it was that easy to counter VLO fighters, do you think that both the US and China would not be spending billions doing the same? It seems that both countries are completely clueless idiots and the Russians know something that they do not.

Like I say, for whatever reason the Russians "stealthified" a SU-27 airframe and then came up with PAK-FA. It is NOT a completely new airframe design.

 

[Gessler]

Forget what the Russians say as they will say anything to boast about their product.

What counts is that they themselves have admitted that it is only a LO aircraft - something that even laymen have been saying for years just by looking at the shape of it. It is a fact that 80% of stealth is shaping.

As for YF-23, it was always designed to be more stealthy than the YF-22 and it LOOKS far more stealthy than PAK-FA. The US decided to go with the more manoeuvrable YF-22 in the end as they probably felt that not all air-combat will be BVR.

The F-22 looks stealthy, the J-20 looks stealthy, the J-31 looks stealthy, the F-35 looks stealthy but not as much as the F-22, J-20 and J-31 whereas only some stealth features are visible on the PAK-FA.

Shaping increases stealth, but plays a role in downgrading aerodynamic performance at several points. The Russians
didn't want to do that hence gave the plane minimal stealth shaping (although still significant) and chose to
research into unconventional stealth methods such as plasma bursts or active cancellation of radiowaves.

 

[UKBengali]

Shaping increases stealth, but plays a role in downgrading aerodynamic performance at several points. The Russians
didn't want to do that hence gave the plane minimal stealth shaping (although still significant) and chose to
research into unconventional stealth methods such as plasma bursts or active cancellation of radiowaves.

Well the F-22 has similar aerodynamic characteristic to that of the F-15. The F-119 engine and 2D thrust vectoring help immensely.

We shall have to wait and see just how effective the Russians are with the plasma burst or active active cancellation of radio waves. No-one else has even come near to perfecting this kind of technology yet

 

[Gessler]

L-Band AESA radars will not allow you to fire at the stealth aircraft - only the general location.

The whole objective of the type of stealth being pursued by US & China is to stay below the Clutter-rejection
threshold of enemy radar in order to close in the detection range and gain the element of surprise. PAK-FA's
L-band radars destroy this element of surprise - once PAKFA knows of your presence, you can be sure you
aren't gonna surprise it nor gonna kill it as easily as you said.

Secondly, you are confusing old slotted-array L-band radars to latest AESA-based L-band arrays. These
are far more accurate and powerful than what is found on Su-35 prototypes or otherwise.

While the PAK-FA is trying to get into a firing position the opposing stealth fighter will have locked on and fired at the PAK-FA.

For that it should have a much more powerful radar than F-22 and have lesser RCS than F-22, because even
F-22 isn't sure about actually seeing, locking & shooting at PAK-FA before the latter fires up. You are greatly
underestimating Russian plane's detection ranges and overestimating Chinese plane's stealth abilities.

As for IRST, by the looks of it the new J-20 prototype also has an IRST as well. I am sure that the J-31 will also sport it in one of the prototypes yet to fly.

Do they come with QWIP technology and wavelength-adjustment features? And do those planes have
passive targeting capabilities? Because otherwise they are useless.

If it was that easy to counter VLO fighters, do you think that both the US and China would not be spending billions doing the same? It seems that both countries are completely clueless idiots and the Russians know something that they do not.

Sure.

[/quote][/quote]

 

[zzzz]

The F-22 looks stealthy, the J-20 looks stealthy, the J-31 looks stealthy, the F-35 looks stealthy but not as much as the F-22, J-20 and J-31 whereas only some stealth features are visible on the PAK-FA.

What is so stealthy in canards? Where did you see stealth planes with canards? What is so stealthy about 4th generation engines of SU-27 without any stealth measurements applied?

Do you honestly think the PAK-FA has the same level of stealth as the J-31?

Let us be neutral here. The PAK-FA is nothing more than a stealthified SU-27.

Russia decided to create their own version of the Boeing "Silent Eagle" but with internal weapons bays.

Do you know that stealth planes are built from radar absorbing composites that are able to withstand supersonic speed, huge temps and overloads? So far China failed to develop even simple civilian subsonic composites for their future airliner that is still on paper board
Comac reduces C919 composite use to speed up progress - 5/23/2013 - Flight Global

The airframer initially planned for composites usage on the C919 to be around 20%, but that could now drop to less than 10%, to avoid complications and possible delays, which the five-year-old airframer may not be experienced enough to handle, said sources familiar with the project.

So can you name any single aircraft that China produces with significant number of composites?
Can you name any single fighter plane that China produces with any use of composites in its airframe at all?