Syrian Civil War (Graphic Photos/Vid Not Allowed)

[rmi5]

I have already read some of your scholars view points about this Hadith when I was a child. In contrast to you, I exactly know what they have said, and that's why I said that:

The hadith, itself, has a very strict meaning, unless you want to treat it with heavy bias and apologizing
ختم الله على قلوبهم وعلى سمعهم وعلى أبصارهم غشاوة


Source: Syrian Civil War (Graphic Photos/Vid Not Allowed) | Page 186

Also, looking into it without bias, simply results to what shiites say. I don't expect you to just ignore your sect of religion because of our 15 minutes discussion, but I do expect it to make you study about the stuff that I mentioned, instead of copy pasting from the first google search link of wiki-apologizer Without being a free thinker, you will become what this Ayat says:
ختم الله على قلوبهم وعلى سمعهم وعلى أبصارهم غشاوة

What has been the Sunni understanding of the hadith:
>
> "I have left you 2 weighty things; the Book of Allah and my descendents
> ("itrah"). Both of these will not be separated from each other until the
> Day of Judgement."?

The Sunni scholar Muhammad `Abd al-Rahman al-Mubarkufuri says in his
Book Tuhfah al-Ahwadhi bi Sharh al-Tirmidhi for this
hadith (a narration of which is found in Tirmidhi, hadith #3718):

The meaning of sticking to them (i.e. the Prophet's family) is that one should
love them, respect them, act according to their [authentic] narrations, and depend
upon the statements of [the authorized scholars among] them. *All of this does not
negate taking `ilm from other than them* as the Prophet (May Allah bless him and
give him peace) has also said, "My Companions are like guiding stars, whichever
one you follow, you will become rightly guided."

[end quote]

> Does this not justify the Shia position of taking the deen from the Ahlul Bayt?

No, as their position is one of unjust discrimination and our Prophet (May Allah
bless him and give him peace) did not endorse such unjust discrimination. Additionally,
we, personally, would be very sad if Imam Malik or his student Ibn Qasim (none of
whom was part of the Prophet's family) were not allowed to teach and transmit the din
as if it were not for these two people and also Sahnun, this great coherent madh-hab
al-maliki would never have reached us.

Everybody should be given an equal chance and those who are truly gifted will
outshine others by the will and decree of Allah. .

Also, their view is not backed up the actions of Ja`far as-Sadiq on his death bed
as narrated by Ibn Rushd al-Kabir (See entry #9 of the Notes of Sources) - who
specifically appointed a non-descendent (i.e. Malik ibn Anas) as a successor to him.


When we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), he talked about periods of trial (fitnahs), mentioning many of them.

When he mentioned the one when people should stay in their houses, some asked him: Messenger of Allah, what is the trial (fitnah) of staying at home?

He replied: It will be flight and plunder. Then will come a test which is pleasant. Its murkiness is due to the fact that it is produced by a man from the people of my house, who will assert that he belongs to me, whereas he does not, for my friends are only the God-fearing. Then the people will unite under a man who will be like a hip-bone on a rib. Then there will be the little black trial which will leave none of this community without giving him a slap, and when people say that it is finished, it will be extended. During it a man will be a believer in the morning and an infidel in the evening, so that the people will be in two camps: the camp of faith which will contain no hypocrisy, and the camp of hypocrisy which will contain no faith. When that happens, expect the Antichrist (Dajjal) that day or the next.

Book of Trials and Fierce Battles (Kitab Al-Fitan Wa Al-Malahim) - Sunan Abi Dawud - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) (search hadith 3704)
[{Abu Dawud, al-fitan wa l-malahim, dhikr al-fitan wa dala'iliha hadith #3704}]

What we can learn from this hadith coupled with the first one is that following/imitating
the Prophet's family is conditional on their uprightness.

As for loving and respecting the Prophet's family, the scholars say that one is obliged
to love them even if they are not people of taqwa (as long as they are believers)
[due to the verse:

Say: I do not ask from you any fee (ajran) except for love of
the[/my] close relatives. [{al-Qur'an 42:23}]

Thus, loving the Prophet's household is a wajib duty on us according to the
the vast majority of the mufassirin of this ayah.

Hadith Thaqalayn

On one hand you say, you are a busy man and on other hand, you are refusing to read up sunni explanation and acting all high and mighty

 

[Daneshmand]

Instead of verbiage, open another thread, quote all the specific hadiths from Saha Sittah about that particular incident and we will debate further on that and do me a favour, read all those ahadith once again before posting, Unless they specifically says, Bibi fatimah was MURDERED by those companions, you have every right to post them, if not, don't bother to engage me on useless semantic debates

P.S. Where Did I deny about the authenticity of those ahadith ?

So much so for your ability to engage in debate. You are not accepting even Sahih-al-Bukhari, how can I change your mind, even by creating a thread?

There is no cure for ignorance, bigotry and prejudice except knowledge. I referred to a book of yours. You started with name calling and a meaningless challenge. Go and read Sahih-al-Bukhari. Either he was a liar, or not. You decide. It is going to be your personal choice. I can not make that choice for you through creating a thread. It is a choice you have to make for yourself. Either these Sunnah authors were liars or they told the truth. There can be no other possibility.

 

[Bratva]

So much so for your ability to engage in debate. You are not accepting even Sahih-al-Bukhari, how can I change your mind, even by creating a thread?

There is no cure for ignorance, bigotry and prejudice except knowledge. I referred to a book of yours. You started with name calling and a meaningless challenge. Go and read Sahih-al-Bukhari. Either he was a liar, or not. You decide. It is going to be your personal choice. I can not make that choice for you through creating a thread. It is a choice you have to make for yourself. Either these Sunnah authors were liars or they told the truth. There can be no other possibility.

Where did I say I'm not accepting Sahih Al Bukhari or any of other books narrations? Why are you associating false things to me?

I have already read some of your scholars view points about this Hadith when I was a child. In contrast to you, I exactly know what they have said, and that's why I said that:

Also, looking into it without bias, simply results to what shiites say. I don't expect you to just ignore your sect of religion because of our 15 minutes discussion, but I do expect it to make you study about the stuff that I mentioned, instead of copy pasting from the first google search link of wiki-apologizer Without being a free thinker, you will become what this Ayat says:
ختم الله على قلوبهم وعلى سمعهم وعلى أبصارهم غشاوة

I looked in to it unbiased. All these hadiths and ayaas refered to follow Ahl e bayt in matters of religion. There is no obligation or command that bind whole muslim ummah to be ruled by Ahlul Bayt solely. Imam Jafer Saadiq example is there. They are most exalted and no one object by being ruled by them but to say leadership stays only in house of Prophet (PBUH). For those I just say

ختم الله على قلوبهم وعلى سمعهم وعلى أبصارهم غشاوة

 

[Daneshmand]

Where did I say I'm not accepting Sahih Al Bukhari or any of other books narrations? Why are you associating false things to me?

Buddy, learn to think straight. There is no need to get emotional in a logical debate.

You said this:

One of the most absurd innovative narration by Shia's, do you think Killing daughter of Prophet (PBUH) right after his death would have gone unpunished? Atleast try to apply some logic on nonsensical narration you like to peddle around so much. . Do tawbah in front of Allah for Slandering and accusing someone of murdering Ahl e bayt and Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) left it upon Muslim Ummah choose their Successor. He didnot explicitly mention any leader for muslim Ummah ! and there is no hard and fast rule in Islam that says Only Ahl e Bayt could lead Ummah. Any sane, capable leader could do it.

I raised objection to your "innovation" or rather lie that Shias have made up this. I referred you to Sahih-al-Bukhari. Instead of going and reading it, you are getting emotional and steamy. If you accept Sahih-al-Bukhari, then you also accept that the event did took place and this is not an "innovation" by Shias. If you do not accept Sahih-al-Bukhari, then you will go on and say Shia made up this event. Which is it now? Do you accept or not? Do you think Sahih-al-Bukhari is a lie or truth? Straight forward.

 

[Bratva]

Buddy, learn to think straight. There is no need to get emotional in a logical debate.

You said this:



I raised objection to your "innovation" or rather lie that Shias have made up this. I referred you to Sahih-al-Bukhari. Instead of going and reading it, you are getting emotional and steamy. If you accept Sahih-al-Bukhari, then you also accept that the event did took place and this is not an "innovation" by Shias. If you do not accept Sahih-al-Bukhari, then you will go on and say Shia made up this event. Which is it now? Do you accept or not? Do you think Sahih-al-Bukhari is a lie or truth? Straight forward.

So much for logical and straight thinking, I was referring to the part said people Murder or killed Bibi Fatima (RA) which they didnot. It was scuffle which broke out. Unless you accept oue books, then you should accept. Bibi Fatima did made amends with Hazrat Abu bakr (RA) afterwards as mentioned in Bukhair and other Saha Sitta books. Cherry picking some events and ignoring other events where Both parties patched up their conflicts and forgave each other is worst kind of bigotry.

So clear your head, read our Books clearly and thoroughly so that you may understand why I said Innovation Shia created that Said persons killed Bibi Fatima (RA)!

 

[Mosamania]

Shiekh Bratva and Mulla rmi5 are at it again.

 

[Daneshmand]

So much for logical and straight thinking, I was referring to the part said people Murder or killed Bibi Fatima (RA) which they didnot. It was scuffle which broke out. Unless you accept oue books, then you should accept. Bibi Fatima did made amends with Hazrat Abu bakr (RA) afterwards as mentioned in Bukhair and other Saha Sitta books. Cherry picking some events and ignoring other events where Both parties patched up their conflicts and forgave each other is worst kind of bigotry.

Oh, I see. It is an improvement on your previous position. Now you accept that there was a "scuffle". That it is not something Shias made up, in your words, an "innovation". Then other questions emerge that need answering:

1- What this scuffle was about?
2- Is it ok and acceptable to scuffle with a lady, let alone the daughter of Prophet?
3- Were any punishments meted out to those who brought this scuffle on?
4- How much the lady in question was hurt (from a forensic point of view), did she receive bodily harm and leading up to her death?
5- When a ruler in position of power is forgiven, by a victim, how much we should remain suspicious that either this event did not occur or that it was done under duress?

And many more questions. Do not brush this under the rug. We are talking about the daughter of the Prophet here. Even if a simple lady goes through such a scuffle in any civilized society today, such questions become of utmost importance in a court of law. Why should daughter of the Prophet be any different?

 

[rmi5]

Shiekh Bratva and Mulla rmi5 are at it again.

OK, don't get angry Mosa. I am no mullah

 

[Bratva]

Oh, I see. It is an improvement on your previous position. Now you accept that there was a "scuffle". That it is not something Shias made up, in your words, an "innovation". Then other questions emerge that need answering:

1- What this scuffle was about?
2- Is it ok and acceptable to scuffle with a lady, let alone the daughter of Prophet?
3- Were any punishments meted out to those who brought this scuffle on?
4- How much the lady in question was hurt (from a forensic point of view), did she receive bodily harm and leading up to her death?
5- When a ruler in position of power is forgiven, by a victim, how much we should remain suspicious that either this event did not occur or that it was done under duress?

And many more questions. Do not brush this under the rug. We are talking about the daughter of the Prophet here. Even if a simple lady goes through such a scuffle in any civilized society today, such questions become of utmost importance in a court of law. Why should daughter of the Prophet be any different?

Open another thread at Social & Current Events . Quote all the relevant hadiths from Six guided books about this particular event. We will then debate. I'm not going to engage your empty accusations which are not backed up with proper chain of narrations and do One favour post both arabic ad english translations and this is not a thread to discuss this event . I will gladly answer all your 5 points then.

Shiekh Bratva and Mulla rmi5 are at it again.

I'm liberal bro. though when I see historical inaccuracies, I tend to correct them

 

[Daneshmand]

Open another thread at Social & Current Events . Quote all the relevant hadiths from Six guided books about this particular event. We will then debate. I'm not going to engage your empty accusations which are not backed up with proper chain of narrations and do One favour post both arabic ad english translations and this not a thread to discuss this event . I will gladly answer all your 5 points then.

Dear, I told you above. It is a choice for YOU and YOU alone to make. I can not make this choice for you through creation of a mere thread. I referred to your own sources. You are refusing to read them and you are refusing to think about it. I can not help you even if I created a thread. I am clear on this. The question is are you? honestly? Can you honestly turn your heart towards God and say that you are clear about the points I raised. It is your predicament, not mine.

 

[Dr.Thrax]

Syrians in the besieged Eastern Ghouta demand that the siege be broken for humanitarian reasons, Assad will as always keep the civilians dying as long as he sits in his chair.

 

[Mosamania]

OK, don't get angry Mosa. I am no mullah

I just have a natural aversion to religious based conversations. I try to keep my posts and my mentality based around real and actual things as much as I can.

 

[Bratva]

I just have a natural aversion to religious based conversations. I try to keep my posts and my mentality based around real and actual things as much as I can.

Though the root cause of conflict is based on the same religious contentions we are facing from last 1300 years

 

[Mosamania]

Though the root cause of conflict is based on the same religious contentions we are facing from last 1300 years

Actually no, it has always been a political struggle, this current Sunni-Shia quagmire is just a result of Saudi and Iranian rivalry over who controls the middle eastern market. Each have a fledgling industrial power that needs customers, each have plans to link their supplies to Europe and all of it goes through Syria.

From rail way to pipelines. Heads of governments are rarely so stupid to be motivated by religion, however they are smart enough to use it.

 

[elszADaQ]

Moderate Shabihas