Swedish newspapers reprint Mohammed cartoon

[gambit]

When you attack a religious base, and offend from whatever comes from your arse..the freedom ends there.

By printing the cartoon you are asking for the trouble. It is not freedom. You are offending a large group by posting an inaccurate, offensive, wet dream picture.

So you are saying that if there is large enough of a group who takes offense at something -- anything -- any action to provoke that offense deserve whatever negative responses from that large group, responses ranging from verbal to physical.

The world should be glad Americans, all three hundred something millions of US, do not take offense at all the flag burnings accompanied by chants of 'Death to America'.

 

[TechLahore]

The world should be glad Americans, all three hundred something millions of US, do not take offense at all the flag burnings accompanied by chants of 'Death to America'.

What is your point? Do you want someone to bring up how American troops at Abu Ghraib tore pages of the Quran and threw them in the toilet?

If people shout the slogans you refer to, Americans too are equally to blame for very nasty rhetoric.

And last but not least, burning an American flag is one thing. Invading someone's country is another. How many countries has America invaded since the end of the second world war?

Those who live in glass houses...

 

[gambit]

What is your point?

The point is that you missed the point -- about symbolism and their weight. Try again. Get help if necessary. I recommend at least one semester in semiotics.

 

[Solomon2]

So you are saying that if there is large enough of a group who takes offense at something -- anything -- any action to provoke that offense deserve whatever negative responses from that large group, responses ranging from verbal to physical.

Islam is a religion of peace, right? That means that as long as a person who has power over them is a Muslim the faithful have a responsible to peacefully submit to being under the thumb. We Westerners have civil rights that trump those in power; the rights of those subject to Taliban-like rule can be aptly summed up as "You have the right to kiss our a-- if you're good, and to be smashed if you give us offense". Or am I missing something? Is there some other limitation?

 

[TechLahore]

The point is that you missed the point -- about symbolism and their weight. Try again. Get help if necessary. I recommend at least one semester in semiotics.

And I recommend a few years in a finishing school for you. You may learn some manners yet.

 

[Hulk]

What a big blatant lie. Go back and read that thread. I condemned MF Husain's nude paintings but raised the question of why Hindu artists making similar works were not chased out of the country.

Have some shame and quit walking around all over the board just lying through your teeth...

And I replied to your question, but you kept ignoring the reply because it did not suited you. Let me repeat here, I said that same thing applies to Hindu too, but not everything get's noticed. I have personally witnessed this, when a Hindu was asked to apologies. There was another incidence in Delhi.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/arts/design/19hind.html
The student here is a Hindu.

 

[Bang Galore]

Well said.

I am assuming you also condemn the right wing hindus who threatened MF Husain with violence?

I did. You can read my posts on that issue.

 

[TechLahore]

Islam is a religion of peace, right? That means that as long as a person who has power over them is a Muslim the faithful have a responsible to peacefully submit to being under the thumb. We Westerners have civil rights that trump those in power; the rights of those subject to Taliban-like rule can be aptly summed up as "You have the right to kiss our a-- if you're good, and to be smashed if you give us offense". Or am I missing something? Is there some other limitation?

You are wrong on almost all counts.

1. Yes, Islam is a religion of peace.
2. No, rulers in Islam do not keep the people under their "thumb". Islamic law places stringent conditions on rulers and grants people rights that are inalterable by any ruler. I suspect you already knew that, but I do have to give you the benefit of doubt. At least once, anyway.
3. You "Westerners" may have civil rights, but they are not unique to you. Many of the civil rights you refer to existed in Muslim nations hundreds of years prior to debuting in your societies. As recently as the mid-60s people in your society were expressing views in mainstream magazines that show exactly how extensive these "civil rights" were.

Here's some reading for you:

A blast from the past... 1965... and yet this could be today. The police in the US still act the same way when dealing with blacks. LA riots... multiple-shot killings of African Americans simply for opening their front door...

4. What does "Taliban like rule" have anything to do with this discussion? Taliban-like rule has as much to do with Islam as National Socialism (aka Naziism) has to do with Christianity, and as much as Ben-Gurion's terror brigade and Ariel Sharon's Shatila child killers have to do with Judaism.

 

[Chappal Chor]

The printing of cartoon is wrong but at the same level issuing death threats and getting involved in violence is wrong for the same person. every nation has its own set of laws and authority. there are channels to address the problems. each and every individual should not act as the custodian of Islam and respect the law of the land. if there is problem address the channel not becoming the self governing body to the issues.

I repeat again I do not justify the cartoons

 

[gambit]

1. Yes, Islam is a religion of peace.

You mean 'submission'.

3. You "Westerners" may have civil rights, but they are not unique to you. Many of the civil rights you refer to existed in Muslim nations hundreds of years prior to debuting in your societies.

So what happened since then? Here is another point that you missed -- that what matters to people most is not necessarily what transpired a few hundreds years ago but what is happening now.

As recently as the mid-60s people in your society were expressing views in mainstream magazines that show exactly how extensive these "civil rights" were.

Yes...And now the US have a black president. Not only that, there were several other blacks who either contended for the US Presidency or were praised, by blacks and whites, as suitable for the office.

 

[TechLahore]

The printing of cartoon is wrong but at the same level issuing death threats and getting involved in violence is wrong for the same person. every nation has its own set of laws and authority. there are channels to address the problems. each and every individual should not act as the custodian of Islam and respect the law of the land. if there is problem address the channel not becoming the self governing body to the issues.

I repeat again I do not justify the cartoons

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, from a Muslim's perspective, why would we want to punish this ba$tard at all? Let him bury himself deeper. Our belief is that he will burn for all eternity.

As for matters concerning worldly justice, yes, if this person lives in a country where the law allows him to do these things, then one cannot go to that land/country and violate its law or take the law in one's own hands. Action can only be taken against this person as per the law of the country he resides in or is a national of.

However, it would be completely lawful for a Muslim country to try such a criminal in absentia if it is deemed that the actions of this individual have harmed the people of said country, and to punish him as per the law of the land. Now, while this is technically doable, obviously the punishment cannot be realized until the offender is present on the soil of the country that has carried forth with this sort of judgement. I, for one, wouldn't condone the sort of barbaric behaviour Israel indulged in, for instance, by sending hit squads to foreign lands for the purpose of murdering people they deemed to be criminals.

What Muslim countries could do - if they were so inclined - is to boycott Dutch/Swedish products, prevent their nationals from entering Muslim countries, reduce or block oil exports, revisit diplomatic relations etc. When the Danish cartoons were originally printed, these boycotts occurred in most Muslim countries and the Danes were significantly impacted. Apologies and expressions of regret were issued from many quarters and this issue was debated intensely in Denmark... most of what I read seemed to indicate that a large segment of Danish society wished this had never happened because they were worried about the economic and diplomatic backlash.

This would be a good way to deal with things like this and, as I said, these tactics do succeed... after all there are almost 2B Muslims in the world. That's a lot of consumers.

 

[hero]

What a big blatant lie. Go back and read that thread. I condemned MF Husain's nude paintings but raised the question of why Hindu artists making similar works were not chased out of the country.

Have some shame and quit walking around all over the board just lying through your teeth...

You need to read again the thread.

If gov does not support how can 90 yrs old man survive who hurt the feeling of 1 billion hindus?

If 10yrs kid punches idiot husain he will die immediately. how is still survived and lived hist most of life in india? If he worried he could have gone out of the country at that time.

Anyway now come to the cartoon topic.

Why don't you protest now in support of the news paper and condemn the protesters. Since sweden is free and previously they posted some pic of Jesus which are different from conventional believe.

 

[Chappal Chor]

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, from a Muslim's perspective, why would we want to punish this ba$tard at all? Let him bury himself deeper. Our belief is that he will burn for all eternity.

As for matters concerning worldly justice, yes, if this person lives in a country where the law allows him to do these things, then one cannot go to that land/country and violate its law or take the law in one's own hands. Action can only be taken against this person as per the law of the country he resides in or is a national of.

However, it would be completely lawful for a Muslim country to try such a criminal in absentia if it is deemed that the actions of this individual have harmed the people of said country, and to punish him as per the law of the land. Now, while this is technically doable, obviously the punishment cannot be realized until the offender is present on the soil of the country that has carried forth with this sort of judgement. I, for one, wouldn't condone the sort of barbaric behaviour Israel indulged in, for instance, by sending hit squads to foreign lands for the purpose of murdering people they deemed to be criminals.

What Muslim countries could do - if they were so inclined - is to boycott Dutch/Swedish products, prevent their nationals from entering Muslim countries, reduce or block oil exports, revisit diplomatic relations etc. When the Danish cartoons were originally printed, these boycotts occurred in most Muslim countries and the Danes were significantly impacted. Apologies and expressions of regret were issued from many quarters and this issue was debated intensely in Denmark... most of what I read seemed to indicate that a large segment of Danish society wished this had never happened because they were worried about the economic and diplomatic backlash.

This would be a good way to deal with things like this and, as I said, these tactics do succeed... after all there are almost 2B Muslims in the world. That's a lot of consumers.

As you condemn Israel for its covert operations same applies to the Muslim world. now instead of diplomatic measure muslim groups in majority switched over to the death threats and threats to the nation and society in total resulting in the entire population to become hostile. the entire episode becomes muslims did that rather than a definite country or a specific group. now for a moment suppose if any group succeds in killing the guys involved then the general image would be that muslims killed it rendering the entire muslims of europe being looked upon with suspicion...

and this is somewhat true in the time what we are seeing. the mis doings of some people had led to the labeliing of the entire society because they do it on the name Islam.

 

[TechLahore]

You mean 'submission'.

Oh here we go with the twisting of words...

Why didn't you complete the sentence? Because it didn't suit you?

Islam is not mere submission, but submission to the Will of the Almighty. This is precisely what Christianity and Judaism are as well.

And by the way, Islam is a derivative of the root word Salam which means peace...

So what happened since then? Here is another point that you missed -- that what matters to people most is not necessarily what transpired a few hundreds years ago but what is happening now.

What happened since then? We got lazy and allowed the British East India company to bribe and conspire their way to power. They then imposed an exploitative system of government designed to divide and rule as per colonial requirements. We (both India and Pakistan, in the context of South Asia) have made significant progress in getting rid of this miserable form of governance... we have paid the price for lowering our guard and allowing Westerners to invade our lands. But lesson learned. The story is no different with Libya (Italy), Algeria (France), Arabia (British), Turkey (British) or Iran (Russians, Americans and British)

But I see we are playing the holier-than-thou game. So, in that vein since we claim to care about recent history, didn't the LA riots happen fairly recently? And the Abu Ghraib Quran desecration by US soldiers, wasn't that too, recent? And the waterboarding/torture etc.? How far ago was that?

Yes...And now the US have a black president. Not only that, there were several other blacks who either contended for the US Presidency or were praised, by blacks and whites, as suitable for the office.

I am glad to see the US make progress in this area. They got a black president only 21 years after we got a woman Prime Minister. Good going! Now if only he can make it alive through his term. If you hear Michael Savage, Glen Beck or Laura Ingraham, they appear to be after his blood. I think Michael Savage - with his audience of 15 million listeners - refers to him as a Marxist Communist servant of the Muslims. I pray for Obama's safety...

 

[TechLahore]

As you condemn Israel for its covert operations same applies to the Muslim world. now instead of diplomatic measure muslim groups in majority switched over to the death threats and threats to the nation and society in total resulting in the entire population to become hostile. the entire episode becomes muslims did that rather than a definite country or a specific group. now for a moment suppose if any group succeds in killing the guys involved then the general image would be that muslims killed it rendering the entire muslims of europe being looked upon with suspicion...

and this is somewhat true in the time what we are seeing. the mis doings of some people had led to the labeliing of the entire society because they do it on the name Islam.

Sorry, but the Israeli situation was completely different... The Israeli government officially sanctioned the murder of people on foreign soil by sending official hit squads with people in the employ of the Israeli state.

This is not the same as a Muslim acting on his own, committing a criminal act somewhere.

As I clarified in the very first post I made in this thread, I don't want any Muslim to touch a hair on this swine's head. I want God to punish him for eternity.