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Swedish newspapers reprint Mohammed cartoon

Sorry, but the Israeli situation was completely different... The Israeli government officially sanctioned the murder of people on foreign soil by sending official hit squads with people in the employ of the Israeli state.

This is not the same as a Muslim acting on his own, committing a criminal act somewhere.

As I clarified in the very first post I made in this thread, I don't want any Muslim to touch a hair on this swine's head. I want God to punish him for eternity.

we cannot leave all the criminals in the hands of god. what i say if there is probelem proper channel should be taken rather than individualistic approaches like the money on the head of the person or craps like that.
 
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we cannot leave all the criminals in the hands of god. what i say if there is probelem proper channel should be taken rather than individualistic approaches like the money on the head of the person or craps like that.

No, not all criminals. Those who sin against man, it is for man to punish them. And those who sin against God, it is for God to deal with them.
 
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No, not all criminals. Those who sin against man, it is for man to punish them. And those who sin against God, it is for God to deal with them.

@Tech see as i belong to the kind of secular society where we have muslims and hindus both. i think thats not practically possible.

let me tell you a incident what happened some time back. there is a small town in UP way back in 90s what some hindu fanatics did was they cut of a pig and threw it in masjid and at the same time muslims did for the cow.

as a hindu and a part of secular society it is my right to protect the rights of my muslim brothers. if i fail to do so it would bring an equal and opposite ire on me from my brother. so it is my duty that my muslim brother is not offended so i need to have laws against agitating him. but at the same time my brother should not take arms head on if he is .,.....
 
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@Tech see as i belong to the kind of secular society where we have muslims and hindus both. i think thats not practically possible.

I belong to a country where there are christians, hindus, parsis and muslims also. I understand your point, but I think you missed mine. You used an example which is punishable under criminal law in most countries. For example, when someone throws a ****** or otherwise unwelcome object into your house or place of worship it is a crime against man... you are a) trespassing b) expressing hostile intent which is justification for the owner of the property to shoot you in self defence c) causing harm to someone's property by defacing it and so on.

An offence against God is when someone - without causing physical harm of any sort to any person or property - abuses that which is considered holy. This is a sin purely against God... and only God can deal with this.
 
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@Tech this particular incident reminds me of a story we have in India....

once upon a time vultures were short of food. so they had a meeting. the senior vulture came up with a plan. in the night they took some idols from the temple and kept it inside the masjid and distorted few couple of idols inside the temple with their beaks. Next day they had a feast........
 
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I agree with a remark in a previous post the religions should be open to question & possibly criticism.

Yet, there is no reason for anyone to mock a religion. Right or wrong its a faith some one follows, just coz I feel differently I have no reason or justification to mock it.

I would rate the current case of cartoons at par with what MF Hussain did to hindu gods .. unacceptable and totally uncalled for. Cartoons like art has so many subjects & so many ways to convey the same thoughts. Why take an approach that can hurt someone ?

In the same breath I would add that calls to kill the cartoonists / artists are equally uncalled for.
 
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@Tech this particular incident reminds me of a story we have in India....

once upon a time vultures were short of food. so they had a meeting. the senior vulture came up with a plan. in the night they took some idols from the temple and kept it inside the masjid and distorted few couple of idols inside the temple with their beaks. Next day they had a feast........

Good one!

And I won't ask you who the vultures were ;-)
 
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Either the Swedes don't have an idea of how offensive these pictures are or they are simply looking for a fight.

On the flipside Muslims too need to exercise some degree of tolerance and for once showing moderate responses. Look at how some of you started invoking the wretched Taliban for your defence.

The idea is to make us go fanatically crazy and cause riots in our home countries while they sit in theirs enjoying their first world lives, focusing upon science and building engineering marvels.

Give calm and cool responses. Violence is never right and has never really worked. If anything the repeated reprinting of these photos has a side goal. They want to keep you all violent, third world, illiterate and intolerant. Don't hand it to them on a plate. As they say, the best revenge is to live a better life.
 
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kya chor bhai..aaj soye ya nahi..?;)

the thread will go round and round...the simple fact is that such cartoons should not have been published. but again its their decision . so now onus is on the govts. of muslim countries...lets see their reaction to this insulting act..
 
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kya chor bhai..aaj soye ya nahi..?;)

I dont sleep much. hardly 5 6 hours....

i sense a publicity stunt in this one. some lunatics trying to gain political mileage by cheap publicity stunts. at least the whole of muslim world knows the name of the newspaper and this would definitely make the others look into it.
 
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You are wrong on almost all counts.

1. Yes, Islam is a religion of peace.
2. No, rulers in Islam do not keep the people under their "thumb". Islamic law places stringent conditions on rulers and grants people rights that are inalterable by any ruler. I suspect you already knew that, but I do have to give you the benefit of doubt. At least once, anyway.
3. You "Westerners" may have civil rights, but they are not unique to you. Many of the civil rights you refer to existed in Muslim nations hundreds of years prior to debuting in your societies. As recently as the mid-60s people in your society were expressing views in mainstream magazines that show exactly how extensive these "civil rights" were.

Here's some reading for you:
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A blast from the past... 1965... and yet this could be today. The police in the US still act the same way when dealing with blacks. LA riots... multiple-shot killings of African Americans simply for opening their front door...

4. What does "Taliban like rule" have anything to do with this discussion? Taliban-like rule has as much to do with Islam as National Socialism (aka Naziism) has to do with Christianity, and as much as Ben-Gurion's terror brigade and Ariel Sharon's Shatila child killers have to do with Judaism.

You need to read indian history.
Aurangzeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Enforcement of Islamic law
A quran produced in the times of the Mughal empire.
François Bernier (1625–1688), a French physician and traveler, became for 12 years the personal physician of Aurangzeb. He described his experiences in Travels in the Mughal Empire.

Soon after his ascension, Aurangzeb purportedly abandoned the "liberal" religious viewpoints of his predecessors.[8] Though Akbar, Jahangir and Shah Jahan's approach to faith was more syncretic than the empire's founder, Aurangzeb's position is not so obvious. While his conservative interpretation of Islam and belief in the Sharia (Islamic law) is well documented, how this affected the empire remains unclear. Despite claims of sweeping edicts and policies, contradictory accounts exist.[9] Specifically, his compilation of the Fatawa-e-Alamgiri, a digest of Muslim law, was either intended for personal use, never enforced, or only poorly done. While some assert the lack of broad adoption was due to an inherent flaw[10], others insist they were only intended for his observance.[11] While it is possible the war of succession and a continued incursions combined with Shah Jahan's spending made cultural expenditures impossible[12], Aurangzeb's orthodoxy is also used to explain his infamous "burial" of music. The scene describing the "death of music"(and all other forms of performance) is paradoxically dramatic.

Niccolao Manucci's Storia do Mogor and Khafi Khan's Muntakhab al-Lubab are the only documents which describe the aforementioned event. In Storia do Mogor, Manucci describes the ramifications of Aurangzeb's 1668 decree.[13] Here, Aurangzeb's instructions for the muhtasib seem particularly damning:

In Hindustan both Moguls and Hindus are very fond of listening to songs and instrumental music. He therefore ordered the same official to stop music. If in any house or elsewhere he heard the sound of singing and instruments, he should forthwith hasten there and arrest as many as he could, breaking the instruments. Thus was caused a great destruction of musical instruments. Finding themselves in this difficulty, their large earnings likely to cease, without there being any other mode of seeking a livelihood, the musicians took counsel together and tried to appease the king in the following way: About one thousand of them assembled on a Friday when Aurangzeb was going to the mosque. They came out with over twenty highly-ornamented biers, as is the custom of the country, crying aloud with great grief and many signs of feeling, as if they were escorting to the grave some distinguished defunct. From afar Aurangzeb saw this multitude and heard their great weeping and lamentation, and, wondering, sent to know the cause of so much sorrow. The musicians redoubled their outcry and their tears, fancying the king would take compassion upon them. Lamenting,they replied with sobs that the king's orders had killed Music, therefore they were bearing her to the grave. Report was made to the king, who quite calmly remarked that they should pray for the soul of Music, and see that she was thoroughly well buried. In spite of this, the nobles did not cease to listen to songs in secret. This strictness was enforced in the principal cities.[14][15]

This implies he not only placed a prohibition on music, but actively sought and crushed any resistance. Without music, and implicitly dance, many Hindu-inspired practices[16] would have been impossible. Lavish celebrations of the Emperor's birthday, commonplace since the time of Akbar, would certainly be forbidden under such conditions. Oddly, artistic work not only steadied during Aurangzeb's reign, it increased.[17] Amidst these and other contradictions, the validity and bias of Manucci and Khafi Khan's work is being questioned.

Another particularly heinous claim against Aurangzeb, was his policy of temple destruction. Though figures vary wildly from 80 to 60,000[18], it clearly took place to some extent. However, Aurangzeb's Firmans on behalf of the Balaji or Vishnu Temple[19] and his land grant for famous Hindu religious sites in Kasi[citation needed], Varanasi insist these events weren't universal. Noted Historian Richard Eaton believes the overall understanding of temples to be flawed. As early as the sixth century, temples became vital political landmarks as well as religious ones. In fact, not only was temple desecration widely practiced and accepted, it was a necessary part of political struggle.[20]

Alexander Hamilton, a British historian, toured India towards the end of Aurangzeb's fifty year reign and observed that every one was free to serve and worship God in his own way[citation needed]. Francois Bernier, traveled and chronicled Mughal India during the war of succession, notes both Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb's distaste for Christians. This led to the demolition of Christian settlements near the British/European Factories and enslavement of Christian converts by Shah Jahan. Furthermore, Aurangzeb stopped all aid to Christian Missionaries (Frankish Padres) initiated by Akbar and Jahangir.[21][page needed]



Aurangzeb's views on the Jizya (poll tax)

From Aurangzeb's Fatwa:

"[Jizyah] refers to what is taken from the Dhimmis, according to [what is stated in] al-Nihayah. It is obligatory upon [1] the free, [2] adult members of [those] who are generally fought, [3] who are fully in possession of their mental faculties, and [4] gainfully employed, even if [their] profession is not noble, as is [stated in] al-Sarajiyyah. There are two types of [jizyah]. [The first is] the jizyah that is imposed by treaty or consent, such that it is established in accordance with mutual agreement, according to [what is stated in] al-Kafi. [The amount] does not go above or below [the stipulated] amount, as is stated in al-Nahr al-Fa’iq. [The second type] is the jizyah that the leader imposes when he conquers the unbelievers (kuffar), and [whose amount] he imposes upon the populace in accordance with the amount of property [they own], as in al-Kafi. This is an amount that is pre-established, regardless of whether they agree or disagree, consent to it or not.

"The wealthy [are obligated to pay] each year forty-eight dirhams [of a specified weight], payable per month at the rate of 4 dirhams. The next, middle group (wast al-hal) [must pay] twenty-four dirhams, payable per month at the rate of 2 dirhams. The employed poor are obligated to pay twelve dirhams, in each month paying only one dirham, as stipulated in Fath al-Qadir, al-Hidayah, and al-Kafi. [The scholars] address the meaning of "gainfully employed", and the correct meaning is that it refers to one who has the capacity to work, even if his profession is not noble. The scholars also address the meaning of wealthy, poor, and the middle group. Al-Shaykh al-Imam Abu Ja‘far, may Allah the most high have mercy on him, considered the custom of each region decisive as to whom the people considered in their land to be poor, of the middle group, or rich. This is as such, and it is the most correct view, as stated in al-Muhit. Al-Karakhi says that the poor person is one who owns two hundred dirhams or less, while the middle group owns more than two hundred and up to ten thousand dirhams, and the wealthy [are those] who own more than ten thousand dirhams...The support for this, according to al-Karakhi is provided by the fatawa of Qadi Khan (d. 592/1196). It is necessary that in the case of the employed person, he must have good health for most of the year, as is stated in al-Hidayah. It is mentioned in al-Idah that if a dhimmi is ill for the entire year such that he cannot work and he is well off, he is not obligated to pay the jizyah, and likewise if he is sick for half of the year or more. If he quits his work while having the capacity [to work] he [is still liable] as one gainfully employed, as is [stated in] al-Nihayah. No jizyah is imposed upon their women, children, ill persons or the blind, or likewise on the paraplegic, the very old, or on the unemployed poor, as is stated in al-Hidayah."[citation needed]
 
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You need to read indian history.

Enforcement of Islamic law
A quran produced in the times of the Mughal empire.
François Bernier (1625–1688), a French physician and traveler, became for 12 years the personal physician of Aurangzeb. He described his experiences in Travels in the Mughal Empire.


I have read plenty of Indian history, hero. You need to pay a little greater attention to the concept of "relevance". None of what you are bringing up is in anyway relevant to this discussion. In general, muslim rulers throughout history have treated minorities with far greater respect than contemporary rulers of other religions. Please refer to the book, "Were they good for the Jews" (written by a Jewish author). You will find all the historical references you need. It provides detailed accounts of how minorities like the Jews were treated exceptionally well by Muslim rulers while Christian rulers usually brutalized the Jewish population. You only have to read Shakespeare to figure that out.

The fact that the text you pasted makes an argument concerning a specific Muslim ruler does not mean that Islam sanctions this ruler's actions. Did Hinduism teach Purohit to blow up a train and kill innocent people? No! That was his own problem.
 
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Oh here we go with the twisting of words...

Why didn't you complete the sentence? Because it didn't suit you?

Islam is not mere submission, but submission to the Will of the Almighty. This is precisely what Christianity and Judaism are as well.

And by the way, Islam is a derivative of the root word Salam which means peace...
Submission and peace have different meanings and ways to achieve the goals contained inside those meanings.

What happened since then? We got lazy and allowed the British East India company to bribe and conspire their way to power. They then imposed an exploitative system of government designed to divide and rule as per colonial requirements. We (both India and Pakistan, in the context of South Asia) have made significant progress in getting rid of this miserable form of governance... we have paid the price for lowering our guard and allowing Westerners to invade our lands. But lesson learned. The story is no different with Libya (Italy), Algeria (France), Arabia (British), Turkey (British) or Iran (Russians, Americans and British)
I recently bought a house. After so much time, there is only so much excuse about the previous owner I can throw up before my neighbors begins to make disparaging comments about my house and about me should I decide to neglect my house. The ME is no longer ruled by Western powers. The muslims controls the most valuable natural resource crucial to mankind's progress -- oil. They are also in control of their own territories. You claimed that muslims respect modern day civil rights hundreds of years ago. Fine. For the sake of argument, I will grant you that wide latitude. So what is preventing the muslims from granting the same respect today?

But I see we are playing the holier-than-thou game. So, in that vein since we claim to care about recent history, didn't the LA riots happen fairly recently? And the Abu Ghraib Quran desecration by US soldiers, wasn't that too, recent? And the waterboarding/torture etc.? How far ago was that?
Are these widespread? Or are they proverbial 'flash in the pan'?

I am glad to see the US make progress in this area. They got a black president only 21 years after we got a woman Prime Minister.
:lol:

Buddy...If there is one thing you should learn about politics at the national level, it is that neither Obama nor Bhutto ran and got elected because of their race or gender. They got elected because the people believed either person represented their views. As far as women in government goes, the best indicator is not how high any single woman got elected but how many women, plural, are in government, in other words, in politics, it is better to have breadth BEFORE depth, or height, depending on how you look at it. If a majority of the electorate got you into office, it means that in politics, you need numbers, or at least very vocal supporters, to get your point across.

Good going! :-) Now if only he can make it alive through his term. If you hear Michael Savage, Glen Beck or Laura Ingraham, they appear to be after his blood. I think Michael Savage - with his audience of 15 million listeners - refers to him as a Marxist Communist servant of the Muslims. I pray for Obama's safety...
You do that and I appreciate your prayers to our President. But if 'the right' in America is as powerful as you would like to portray them, then someone much closer to the President and his family would have taken his shot by now.
 
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I have read plenty of Indian history, hero. You need to pay a little greater attention to the concept of "relevance". None of what you are bringing up is in anyway relevant to this discussion. In general, muslim rulers throughout history have treated minorities with far greater respect than contemporary rulers of other religions. Please refer to the book, "Were they good for the Jews" (written by a Jewish author). You will find all the historical references you need. It provides detailed accounts of how minorities like the Jews were treated exceptionally well by Muslim rulers while Christian rulers usually brutalized the Jewish population. You only have to read Shakespeare to figure that out.

The fact that the text you pasted makes an argument concerning a specific Muslim ruler does not mean that Islam sanctions this ruler's actions. Did Hinduism teach Purohit to blow up a train and kill innocent people? No! That was his own problem.

That is just an example. India is attacked by numerous muslim ruler from afghans. Destroyed numerous temples and killed peoples. If you want I can give you the list.
 
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Submission and peace have different meanings and ways to achieve the goals contained inside those meanings.


I recently bought a house. After so much time, there is only so much excuse about the previous owner I can throw up before my neighbors begins to make disparaging comments about my house and about me should I decide to neglect my house. The ME is no longer ruled by Western powers. The muslims controls the most valuable natural resource crucial to mankind's progress -- oil. They are also in control of their own territories. You claimed that muslims respect modern day civil rights hundreds of years ago. Fine. For the sake of argument, I will grant you that wide latitude. So what is preventing the muslims from granting the same respect today?

What part about "we are trying to get rid of this [colonial] system" did you not understand? In Pakistan we implemented local governance and undid the old British DC/AC system which was designed to be exploitative. In India and Pakistan, we conducted significant land reform. This crap was imposed over a period of 200 years. One can't get rid of these vestiges in 20 minutes.

Nothing is preventing Muslims from granting the same respect today... we do much more than what we get credit for. Compare where we were in 1920 to where we are now. In under a century we have freed all our countries from the west and for the most part, have made serious improvements in our societies at almost all levels (you must view all 50+ countries in the OIC to get a complete picture of the quantum of change). In Pakistan, we didn't even have a steel mill in 1947, what to talk of nuclear technology and heavy industry. We built Islamabad - the best city in South Asia - ourselves... post partition. These achievements are holistic - they didn't happen in a vacuum. They required us to be inclusive. And we were. There is room to improve, but God knows, that is a truism for most of his creation.

Are these widespread? Or are they proverbial 'flash in the pan'?

I don't want to give you more examples. I don't want to make this discussion any more unpleasant. Please allow me to skip this one...


You do that and I appreciate your prayers to our President. But if 'the right' in America is as powerful as you would like to portray them, then someone much closer to the President and his family would have taken his shot by now.

If you think I was not being genuine, trust me, I am honestly concerned about Obama's well being. I think he's a good guy who has his heart in the right place, even though his ability to effect change may be limited by the establishment that surrounds him.

Look at the tea party movement and the kinds of fascists these guys are attracting in large numbers. My fear is that - and as God is my witness, I don't mean this as a dig - the election of a black man has actually polarized the situation even further and has made lots of super-ugly uber rightwingers "wake up" from their erstwhile slumber. The worst is on display right now on Fox, talk show radio etc. You might dismiss my opinion here, but seriously, just look at how a complete nutcase like Michael Savage has been consistently growing his audience into the double digit millions. That isn't something to sneeze at.
 
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