Swat Operation II

[Pashtun]

what are you talking about? there was ruckus in parliament, PML-N and JUI protested that decision. these democratically elected feudal politicians that you elected are some of the stupidest and jahel people on earth. no one in their right mind would send the intelligence chief to india, after he is summoned to india by the great indian PM. do you think india owns this country, that they could just summon the DG ISI and he'll come just like that? especially after all of this mumbai drama, would you just send your own people there like that?

the army has completely removed itself from politics, knowing one day the same jahel people that protested against them will want them back. you have no idea what is going on with Pakistan, especially with these democratically elected goons. Zardari has a tacit deal on airstrikes as long as the govt. can publicly denounce them, Zardari has cut off funding to our ballistic missile program-something Musharraf hadn't even done, going against the US. Zardari and his cronies have prevented the military from testing the submarine launched babur cruise missile, a strategic weapon that will rock the sub-continent.

your statements are obviously biased and are based off of ignorance.

Yes thank you, I have no idea what is going on in pakistan, and you do, while sitting in glorious nation of U.S. of A.

And would you quit accusing people for things they never did. e.g. voting for those feudal lords that you automatically think I voted them in (you don't even know if I've voted or not).

Furthermore, it's a pure ignorance to tell someone that Military does not intervenes in GoP. I guess half of our life was not spent under the military dictators directly, and the other half under their influence.

And you are telling me that Military is letting Zardari get away with tacit agreements for destroying our soverighnty? while General saab's statement' about protecting the borders at cost was drained down the drain when U.S. technically spitted on our army by launching another attack within hours of that strong statement of our strong army?

Are you telling me if the country is attacked, the Army is suppose to wait for the orders from the GoP to whether defend the nation they are recruited to defend or not?

Are you telling me that with such a military dictatorship history we have, army will let Zardari (the most corrupt man in Pak) get away with such tacit agreements that has destroyed Military's reputation in front of 160 million people (minus you few)?

Are you telling me Army has nothing to do with GoP after all those wonderful experiences we had from past 60 years? I guess you need to read Military Inc. if you haven't already, with an unbiased mind.

But you are one heck of a guy to come up with that "not biased' opinions, I tell you that.

Thank you, but I guess you decided not to reply to me, so please spare me of your master pieces (comments) and let me be ignorant and biased. Thank you!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes thank you, I have no idea what is going on in pakistan, and you do, while sitting in glorious nation of U.S. of A.

Pashtun,

This is one of my pet peeves - a posters location does not necessarily reflect upon the accuracy and extent of their information.

For someone whose IP suggests North America, you should be the last one throwing these sorts of 'stones'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

By the way, given that we now have the statements of Chaudrhy Shujaat, Ejaz-ul-Haq, the remainder of their negotiation team (at a press conference immediately after the last round of failed negotiations, and immediately before the start of the final SSG assault), backed up by the statements of Maulana Abdul Sattar Edhi, I consider the accusations leveled at the military over the LM issue to be fraudulent and without substance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

this is what Jana had to say on pdf, AM you might want to read this:

"Ok guys here are some major changes in policy towards Swat.

1. Major Policy shift for local judicial system (only if the powerful civilian man apporves it otherwise all have been finalised)

That would be the Swat Shariah Bill that has been in the works I imagine, that some reports suggested Zardari was reluctant to approve since he thought it would reflect poorly upon him in the West.

I only hope that the individuals manning the judicial system are selected by the Provincial government, and not the local Qazis appointed by Sufi Mohammed and Mullah FM - I believe this was one of the demands of SUfi Mohammed, that the Qazis running these courts have his approval or be locally appointed or some such thing.

 

[Pashtun]

Pashtun,

This is one of my pert peeves - a posters location does not necessarily reflect upon the accuracy and extent of their information.

For someone whose IP suggests North America, you should be the last one throwing these sorts of 'stones'.

It does, when the poster frequently is present on the ground, unlike other's who visit once in a while in summer school break.

However, as far my IP is concerned, you'd find it different in different times, that's because the nature of job I am in. e.g. now, you'd find it differently. Please do check and confirm that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All six in Canada and US Pashtun - like I said, no need to attack members based on their location.

 

[Pashtun]

All six in Canada and US Pashtun - like I said, no need to attack members based on their location.

So its concluded I have teleporting abilities to travel from Canada to US within six posts. Thanks, I am guilty.

But in clarification of what you have asked me, I did not attack anyone based on their lcoation, rather the overall exepreince (age, the amount of time spent in the country, not for visit, but physically spending time and being involved in the scenario, e.g. having your house bombed in operation or your aunt's dead body shot etc. or having other locals on the ground to tell you what they think etc.) but if you haven't noticed, almost all of them attacked Anwar2 and Waraich for their locations by using harsh words to tell them off that they never came to Pakistan in years and hence they don't know.

The warning should be issued to everyone who broke that rule (if its a rule).

However my appologies for picking up the slant.

 

[Pashtun]

By the way, given that we now have the statements of Chaudrhy Shujaat, Ejaz-ul-Haq, the remainder of their negotiation team (at a press conference immediately after the last round of failed negotiations, and immediately before the start of the final SSG assault), backed up by the statements of Maulana Abdul Sattar Edhi, I consider the accusations leveled at the military over the LM issue to be fraudulent and without substance.

You may can believe and agree with them, but for the most of us, they are conisdred "Lotay". I, for one, do not take their word for fact. They were just lip servers.

Edhi on the other hand holds a ground. And one needs to scruitnize the timing of Edhi's meeting with him and other related incidents. Because Ghazi maybe defiant when he met with Edhi, but he may have changed his mind later on but then interestingly someone refused to listen to him and broke down all communiations and ordered the attack.

Anyway, we agree to disagree on that one.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Yes thank you, I have no idea what is going on in pakistan, and you do, while sitting in glorious nation of U.S. of A.

And would you quit accusing people for things they never did. e.g. voting for those feudal lords that you automatically think I voted them in (you don't even know if I've voted or not).

Furthermore, it's a pure ignorance to tell someone that Military does not intervenes in GoP. I guess half of our life was not spent under the military dictators directly, and the other half under their influence.

And you are telling me that Military is letting Zardari get away with tacit agreements for destroying our soverighnty? while General saab's statement' about protecting the borders at cost was drained down the drain when U.S. technically spitted on our army by launching another attack within hours of that strong statement of our strong army?

Are you telling me if the country is attacked, the Army is suppose to wait for the orders from the GoP to whether defend the nation they are recruited to defend or not?

Are you telling me that with such a military dictatorship history we have, army will let Zardari (the most corrupt man in Pak) get away with such tacit agreements that has destroyed Military's reputation in front of 160 million people (minus you few)?

Are you telling me Army has nothing to do with GoP after all those wonderful experiences we had from past 60 years? I guess you need to read Military Inc. if you haven't already, with an unbiased mind.

But you are one heck of a guy to come up with that "not biased' opinions, I tell you that.

Thank you, but I guess you decided not to reply to me, so please spare me of your master pieces (comments) and let me be ignorant and biased. Thank you!

to answer all your questions regarding how far the army is willing to go right now, YES.

• a game-changing weapon that was supposed to be tested was stopped by the "supreme" parliament, obviously taking direct orders from the US.
• Zardari made a deal with the US for airstrikes, the army has nothing to do with it.
• the parliament disposed of the NSC national security council, army did not interfere
• parliament shut down political wing of ISI, army did not interfere
• govt. curtailed NAB's powers to bring politicians to account, army did not interfere.
• zardari cut off funding to our ballistic missile programs and other strategic organizations, taking orders from the US

what the army could not tolerate was the ISI-interior ministry deal, Rehman Malik has ties with British agencies. even your extremist ally hamid gul bitterly opposed that and said it was a conspiracy.

seriously pashtun, think for a moment before you post. you haven't been making any sense for the last few pages of this thread. you say the army isn't doing anything to stop militants from slaughtering you and you go on to say that the army supports them. then you go on to say that the army is enslaved by the west and is fighting against muslims. we can see your support for these extremists when you tried to defend the foreigners marrying pashtun women. the same foreigners who you accused earlier, as spies.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So its concluded I have teleporting abilities to travel from Canada to US within six posts. Thanks, I am guilty.

The six IP's are ones the system has recorded as having been used to log on under your user name. I made no reference to your having used all six to post your past six posts.

But in clarification of what you have asked me, I did not attack anyone based on their lcoation, rather the overall exepreince (age, the amount of time spent in the country, not for visit, but physically spending time and being involved in the scenario, e.g. having your house bombed in operation or your aunt's dead body shot etc. or having other locals on the ground to tell you what they think etc.) but if you haven't noticed, almost all of them attacked Anwar2 and Waraich for their locations by using harsh words to tell them off that they never came to Pakistan in years and hence they don't know.

You are nonetheless assuming that Assad's or someone else's information is incorrect becasue of their location. You have no idea as to what someones contacts or sources are, when they last traveled to Pakistan, or what their connections to the affected region are. Profile information is hardly anything to go by.

The warning should be issued to everyone who broke that rule (if its a rule).

However my appologies for picking up the slant.

It has been issued by me several times in the past - most notably this is a canard raised by a few Indians, to discredit the opinions and arguments of posters on Pakistani forums.

I just think that location is a tangential issue, and his little to do with the validity of someones arguments. Thank you for understanding.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Anyway, we agree to disagree on that one.

Its not a matter of agreeing to disagree - there is absolutely nothing by way of direct sources and evidence either you, Anwar or Warraich have presented to counter the argument that the GoP tried everythign in its power to resolve the issue successfully.

The only thing you have offered is character assassination by out of hand dismissing the statements of Ijaz-ul-Haq, Chaudhry Shujaat and others, despite their statements and conclusions being backed up by identical statements from Abdul Sattar Edhi, through his own contacts with Ghazi.

There is no ambiguity here. The GoP was absolutely correct in adopting the military approach when all else had failed, and that all else had failed has been shown conclusively through multiple direct sources.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pashtun:

And I repeat, what if the representatives fail or refuse to fix the problem?

You vote the government out in the next elections, and then the next. You start a peaceful political movement for change. Democracy is messy, and it takes a while for institutions to evolve and become successful - India is still struggling with her institutions, but the roots for their evolution are there through continuity.

What the LM Mullah's did was, as I said, replicate the 'dictatorship' at a local level - it was an attempt to seize power through force, not representative and consultative action.

 

[Pashtun]

You are nonetheless assuming that Assad's or someone else's information is incorrect becasue of their location. You have no idea as to what someones contacts or sources are, when they last traveled to Pakistan, or what their connections to the affected region are. Profile information is hardly anything to go by.

Nop, I am not assuming that. I am contesting it with logic, reasoning and evidence (whatever is available, as you know not everything is readily available on internet to provide you a link or two). And hence tirade of my questions to understand the other person's understanding on the issue. So you see there's a thing called observation or reading between the lines, I top that one. And I can bet (I would have sworn that if I was face to face with you having this discussion) that nor you, neither Assad have ever been to Waziristan, Bajaur and have never put a foot in Swat during the operation, with 0.001% deviation. So yes, being observant of some people's posts here who are constantly quoting "official" sources to claim soemthing, makes me believe that.

It has been issued by me several times in the past - most notably this is a canard raised by a few Indians, to discredit the opinions and arguments of posters on Pakistani forums.

I just think that location is a tangential issue, and his little to do with the validity of someones arguments. Thank you for understanding.

Apparently you overlooked the same accusations Assad and Enigma had been making on Waraich/Anwar and the pink words others had been using in their respect, and also you perhaps missed the Fatwa regarding us by Qaisar, who implied we are not even Muslims, since we are questioning the army's top brass.

But anywhichway, you have my word, I assure you my understanding in this regard.

 

[Pashtun]

Its not a matter of agreeing to disagree - there is absolutely nothing by way of direct sources and evidence either you, Anwar or Warraich have presented to counter the argument that the GoP tried everythign in its power to resolve the issue successfully.

The thing that you are accusing me for (that I am shooting down other's evidence), I can accuse you for the same as well or others. E.g. You did not take any proofs I provided in my rebuttal to your/others official claims about LM massacre (which you are still standing by), my post is still up there somewhere where I provided many reports and a video call of Ghazi, who reiterated he is ready for surrender/negotiations but all communications had been dropped and operation is imminent, and yet that was shot down as well, citing it was too late, in fact too late is better than never, and that was the case of never. But anywhichway, those proofs, plus reasoning with logic and evidence was all shot down in favour of defence of military operation.

So it's kind of two way traffic now isn't it? But I guess blaming eachother wont take us anywhere rather like women we will be having a catfight for ages, hence I said I agree to disagree with you.

Secondly, I must tell you something, not every thing have an evidence in a link form on internet. There are several things people read in books, magazines, Urdu Newspapers (that are impossible to search for references) and personal experiences, or memories of watching, reading, hearing it elsewhere etc., so either you simply can call other person lier, or take his reasoning and work out logically instead of plainly telling them your evidence is wrong and mine is right. In addition to that, what Waraich and Anwar had been saying is purely experienced based. Only experience can teach certain things, since there's no way any institution documents what it does (specially the wrong things) and give public access to it. So again, you can agree to disagree here, because asking for proofs for such stuff (as they were saying) is basically throwing a laugh, since you and I, know that what they were saying cannot be documented and easily available for public. It's pure experience.

The only thing you have offered is character assassination by out of hand dismissing the statements of Ijaz-ul-Haq, Chaudhry Shujaat and others, despite their statements and conclusions being backed up by identical statements from Abdul Sattar Edhi, through his own contacts with Ghazi.

I didn't know they have characters. Floor crossings for petty interests of money and power, then dumping their people for something else, than becoming a mouthspeaker for a dictator - and the list goes on... I don't think there's any character involved here. Probably in given time, Haq will be speaking against Musharraf, just as many have already. And about Edhi, I already answered that before.

There is no ambiguity here. The GoP was absolutely correct in adopting the military approach when all else had failed, and that all else had failed has been shown conclusively through multiple direct sources.

[/QUOTE]

I tend not to believe in the sources of those who carried the act. In academic way, the tendency of lying and fabricating stories is 99% on the part of the culprit, hence the goold old proverb "Chor bhi kabhi kehta hey kay mein nay chori ki hey?"

So my stand on this stays, when your own angry/agitated citizens are involved, you do not massacre them or shoot at angry protestors (tho it has always been the case), you talk to them, you listen to them, you find a mutual solution (when you are in power, you have more responsibilities than ordering mass massacres as a solution for everything). Patience is virtue, and immensly required to deal with your "not so bright" public, which clearly lacks at our official level, unfortunately.

 

[Pashtun]

Pashtun:

You vote the government out in the next elections, and then the next. You start a peaceful political movement for change. Democracy is messy, and it takes a while for institutions to evolve and become successful - India is still struggling with her institutions, but the roots for their evolution are there through continuity.

What the LM Mullah's did was, as I said, replicate the 'dictatorship' at a local level - it was an attempt to seize power through force, not representative and consultative action.

I didn't know we live in Utopia. Perhaps, I tend to live in the reality of the country I call my own. And let me tell you what is the reality, the reality is: in past three decades, there had been only one instance (the current one) where the awaam had voted someone out (tho its arguable as well), other than that, it had always been coup-de-etats to remove the government in service.

So the notion of, you vote the government out, looks flawless on the paper, but in practical, on ground, it has no factual tail wiggling behind it, as I pointed out what happened before, and since almost all of elections are rigged (some more than others), almost every democratic government (since I had been start breathing) had lost to military coups, every peaceful protest ended up in baton charging, mass arrests, dragging people from hair, people raising their voice disappearing or mysteriously dying etc. etc., not only in our country, but in most pf the third world.

And then at the end we elect people who have stolen billions of dollars from our country, who have charges of murders on them, who had been caught on video for dast-draazi'ng women, and who are easily bought and bowed down to pressure because they have to save their seats and as well necks and as well the money they stashed away in foreign banks (ever wondered why they would not bow to those countries where they have stashed away the money they stole from us?).

If this has been democracy, then it has been a catestrophic failure, and my point of "people rise when governments fail" stands tall. And hence the people fight against such menace since we don't live in a utopia as you perfectly described.

The great Che says - Why does the guerrilla fighter fight? We must come to the inevitable conclusion that the guerrilla fighter is a social reformer, that he takes up arms responding to the angry protest of the people against their oppressors, and that he fights in order to change the social system that keeps all his unarmed brothers in ignominy and misery.

That's how the revolutions take place, when the rulers fail to produce results rather oppress masses with mass murders and injustices and inflicting great harm upon their own citizens.

Good Day!