Swat Operation II

[Xeric]

Is positive thoughts are saying "Yes Sir" for everything anybody says? I mean of course you are in a forum my friend, and people here will question things you say or agree with you, based on what they know and what you provide.

And thats ok, I know emotions are stronger than reason. I can take your insults as long you keep giving me your opinion about what we discuss. I am just trying to get the both ends of the story. I hope you know there are always two ends of the stories.

Thanks

Hey, it never appeared to me that you were trying to get the both ends of the story. You were just trying to push in your fairy tale of the massacre by the Army!
i never noticed that if you had said anything about the Army personnels who embraced Shahadat during the operation. Why did they lost their lives and what about the blood shed, and guess what, they were simply following orders! Unlike the terrorists inside the Masque who were will fully doing those acts of terror!

 

[Pashtun]

Hey, it never appeared to me that you were trying to get the both ends of the story. You were just trying to push in your fairy tale of the massacre by the Army!
i never noticed that if you had said anything about the Army personnels who embraced Shahadat during the operation. Why did they lost their lives and what about the blood shed, and guess what, they were simply following orders! Unlike the terrorists inside the Masque who were will fully doing those acts of terror!

Well why would I have to say things that I already agree with? such as praying for the soldiers that lost their lives on the orders of their elites. One should be questioning it when you hear someone saying "the soldiers are not shaheeds" etc. (and I don't believe anyone have said anything like that here have they?) I mean we all know how disciplined the army is, and the soldiers even have to do the wrong things as long the orders are placed. They have no choice to make their own decisions. Thats how the army elites gets away with their crimes. My heart goes to those who lost their precious lives for decisions of individuals.

But that doesn't mean that one cannot qustion the corruption in the army. Or the power that have got into their heads. Or the heavy handedness they showed on their own people that they sworn to protect, while the outsiders are violating country's soverighnty left n right and killing our citizens and telling us "do whatever you can, the drone attacks ain't going to stop", yet we have no balls to stop that, but when it comes to our own people, we tell them "we will hit you from there where you would never expect". Or the hundreds of people that conveniently disappeared from pakistan and ended up in Gitmo and Bagram. etc. etc. Why can't we question that as citizens of the country, who work hard and pay with their sweat and blood to run the army and other institutions?

Unless you tell me that Army Elite and other Officials are beyond criticism and whatever they do is a right thing to do. Then that's a different thing.

And about "terrorists" in Lal masjid. I don't think you can use such term "terrorist" for them. They did wrong, yes I agree. But they were bunch of pissed off people from our very own country, who did not like the prostituition in Islamabad. Pornography and other ills of the society that was going on in Islamabad (and still going on), for which that they repeatedly called on the government to stop and take action on the wrong things happening in the society destroying our beautiful culture and society, which never happened so they laid siege in protest.

They were not terrorists. People who oppose the wrongs in the society, are not terrorist, they are pissed off, agitated and concerned people. So their reaction to such wahayaat in Islamabad, cannot be termed terrorism. They should have been dealt with dialogue. But no room was left for the dialogue. I believe very less time was given for the dialogue before, without notice, the operation started and precious lives were lost because someone had to prove to the west that he is up to the task of dealing with militancy and the fake threat of terrorism.

Not every pissed off/concerned person against the wrong doings of the government and ills of society, is a terrorist, my friend.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I think Amir bil marouf and nahi munkar should be vital organ of healthy society.If some body think that is terrorism is ignorant need to study islam and grow his believes and IMAN.

Pushtoon these fellows are mostly are serving armed forces or ex armed personel,problem lies in their training institute .

I remember when once i appreared in ISSB selection officer asked do you have girl friend?

Shame full and disgusting question that girl friend is sister or daughter of any muslim brother.We need to change that mind set which is injecting poision of western values in our young generation.

In islamic society if any girl have illegal relation with any person ,both deserve death sentance as per islamic law.

NO! most people here are civilians, most of the time, they don't even have any close relatives in the armed forces like you do. That includes me, I don't have anyone close that I know in the armed forces. We admire their sacrifices, even if we don't get plots in DHA. Don't generalize the entire armed forces based on one comment you've heard from a member that might not even exist.

it's funny, people like you should talk about fighting against the enemies in Islam. When the army was in Kargil, only the afghani taliban came to their aid in small numbers and were actually apart of the operations. Where the hell were you? You didn't do anything for your kashmiri brothers, and now you say the army is fighting for the west.

The army did everything they could with jihad, the ISI even helped muslims living as far as Bosnia, Chechnya, Phillipines, and Northern Africa. You won't get this from anywhere, you can only get this type of news from me. in the end, everything came back to haunt them, with the same chechens somehow transversing thousands of miles to Pakistan to blow themselves up. Apparently, they've gotten tired of you and will wipe you out for good for your treachery.

no one here is a western modernist, you should take a look at yourself. you are an extremist, a takfirist, and a part of khwaarij that will eagerly help the dajjal. I suggest you take a few pills subscribed by a psychiatrist, otherwise we may see you blow yourself up in lahore.

 

[hasang20]

SWAT and all the area Pakistan Army is in "ITS WRONG" cmom we killing our own people that what exactly Americans,Israeli and India wants

 

[Pashtun]

The army did everything they could with jihad, the ISI even helped muslims living as far as Bosnia, Chechnya, Phillipines, and Northern Africa. You won't get this from anywhere, you can only get this type of news from me.

Oh all heil the Encyclopedia Assad-Al-Islam. We would have been lost without your input, wouldn't we?

And no Assad, don't try to pose your self as an Ultimate Information House. Its just silly.

Besides stop asserting too many things on your own about others and asking them whether they have joined the military or not. You haven't joined the military either. And you don't know others either. Why don't you come to Swat and Join Police, they are hiring, since no one wants to work for Police anymore there, and you are suggesting others to join struggle, why don't you leave yoru cozy home in America and come and serve your country?

And stop assuming that people are against everythying army. Nobody is against entire army here. People here are questioning certain actions of Army that have resulted in total catestrophies and have caused severe trauma to the citizens they are suppose to protect. And Army is not beyond criticism that you are hushing everyone up. Every citizen has a right to ask questions and raise his concern against any institution of his/her country.

Stop being a bully, and stop supporting this hush culture already.

 

[Pashtun]

mod : please take action

I second that notion. Please mods take this in notice. People don't come here to get sworn at and insulted because they do not oblige to "yes Sir" mentality.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to carry on with a decent conversation when people start insulting others, their women, and start assuming on their own by assserting and associating things one have never said or meant, just to insult others to prove their farce by shouting and using alternative vocabulory..

 

[RabzonKhan]

Before I comment on your, rather strange, post, I would like to make one thing clear, so you don't jump off the gun, that I am not a Mullah sympathizer, so it shouldn't be misinterpreted.

The turn out in Swat, as I read it the day reports emerged on TV about official calculations, was 18%.

Taking that in account, so basically what you are saying is, 18% voters are all what counts to decide what "Swatayan" wants? (BTW It's not Swatis, its Swatayan).

So what do you think, indiscriminate killing of innocent children, women and men, beheading, blowing up girl’s schools, suicide bombing and burning CD shops, is that going to decide what the Swatis wants?

With so much violence going around, we can’t expect people to come out in large numbers to line up at polling booths, can we? Don’t be so pessimistic, rather than down playing the “low” voter turnout, one should salute the people risking their lives by turning out to vote, when they very well knew that the Taliban terrorists can strike any time.

Here is a small sample of Pre-election violence:

Feb 18 election in Pakistan may be the most violent ever | NowPublic News Coverage
However, due to the uncertain political climate of the country and fragile security situation in those districts, many people were apprehensive about going to the polls on February 18 because of the fear of violence, including militant attacks on polling stations. Many also had concerns that the election might not be held at all.

Fafen observers reported that people feared violent attacks or suicide bombings, especially in Peshawar, Swat, Orakzai Agency and Charsadda. In all the districts, people perceive local militant groups as the main threat to peace on the polling day.

In the News Archive - Eleven dead in Pakistan election violence
February 11, 2008 Monday 3:44 PM GMT
ISLAMABAD – A suicide bomb killed an election candidate and nine other people in Pakistan Monday, while a political worker died in a clash between rival parties as a wave of pre-poll violence intensified.

The attacks raised new fears about the security of the elections in one week's time, with candidates keeping a low profile since the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto at a political rally in December.

Pakistani general election, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the weeks preceding the election, there were several attacks targeting politicians and political rallies. On February 9, a suicide car bomb killed 27 and injured 37 attending a political rally for the Awami National Party in Charsadda. On February 16, another suicide car bomb killed 37 and injured 93 outside the residence of PPP candidate Riaz Shah in Parachinar. The same day, a suicide attack on an army outpost in Swat Valley killed two civilians and injured eight people. A polling location in Bajaur was destroyed by militants earlier.

Moreover, most of the people failed to notice one thing that "MMA" did not run for this election. They boycotted it. So no JUI/JI was in the picture, which has a firm control in the region, hence no massive turnout (votes polled) in the region, and JUI-F, getting away with a seat or two for the reasons because no one else can win from there anyway.

provided the next elections are goign to be held sooner or later, expect a landslide for Qazi's bogey and expect PPP and ANP's grave dug deep in the mountains.

MMA’s four of the six parties did take part in the elections. Link-1 Link-2 Link-3

As I said in my previous post, voters had the choice to vote between the Islamic parties and secularist parties, they voted for the secularist.

Sorry to inform you but you are wrong JUI-F did not win any seat in Swat Feb 2008.

In the 2002 elections, MMA won by playing to anti-American sentiment over the American led invasion of Afghanistan. In the past elections, religious parties have never won more than five or six seat either in the provincial or national assemblies. I don’t think people are going to trust the Taliban supporters again.

Swatis also rendered as Swatayan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_(tribe)
The Swati (also Swatey in Pashto) is a Pashtun tribe.

Swatis - Definition of Swatis at YourDictionary.com
Swati Definition
Swati (swä′t&#275
noun pl. Swati -•ti or Swatis -•tis
a member of a people of Muslim faith living in Swat

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
Swatis themselves have been intimidated into keeping silent about Fazlullah and criticising only the army and its “collateral damage”. But the channels can no longer conceal the fact that the Swatis are now praying for America’s drone attacks in their valley as the last resort.

 

[Pashtun]

So what do you think, indiscriminate killing of innocent children, women and men, beheading, blowing up girl’s schools, suicide bombing and burning CD shops, is that going to decide what the Swatis wants?

With so much violence going around, we can’t expect people to come out in large numbers to line up at polling booths, can we? Don’t be so pessimistic, rather than down playing the “low” voter turnout, one should salute the people risking their lives by turning out to vote, when they very well knew that the Taliban terrorists can strike any time.

Here is a small sample of Pre-election violence:

Feb 18 election in Pakistan may be the most violent ever | NowPublic News Coverage

Well the violence was all over in Pakistan. And comparing it to other parts, Swat did not see the violence, beheadings, or killings as you mentioned. The article you posted also says and I quote:

Based on information sent by its coordinators from Peshawar, Nowshera, Bannu, Mardan, Swabi, Kohat, Karak, Haripur, Dera Ismail Khan, Buner, Swat, Shangla, Chitral, Dir Lower, Malakand, Lakki Marwat, Charsadda, Hangu and Battagram districts of NWFP and Fata, the network said that many potential voters in the observed districts were taking interest in the general election and hoped they would take place on schedule.

There is virtually no violence in Buner, Kohistan, Dir, and somewhat Malakand. Even in Swat, only Matta was the target of militants (they just spread in the rest of Swat now after almost a year of election).

And we did not see no threats in Mingawara (where most voters live) and no incident took place before or on election day. Neither does your provided articles claim anything like that.

So I guess you don't know much about Swat and how the militancy spread. Rather you are based on the reports that are terming everything "swat" which has close to 22 districts, and only one (Matta) had problems, that led to Kabal for a while and then only now in Mingawara.

In the News Archive - Eleven dead in Pakistan election violence
February 11, 2008 Monday 3:44 PM GMT
ISLAMABAD – A suicide bomb killed an election candidate and nine other people in Pakistan Monday, while a political worker died in a clash between rival parties as a wave of pre-poll violence intensified.

The attacks raised new fears about the security of the elections in one week's time, with candidates keeping a low profile since the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto at a political rally in December.

That's not in Swat. So I don't know why would you mention that?

Pakistani general election, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the weeks preceding the election, there were several attacks targeting politicians and political rallies. On February 9, a suicide car bomb killed 27 and injured 37 attending a political rally for the Awami National Party in Charsadda. On February 16, another suicide car bomb killed 37 and injured 93 outside the residence of PPP candidate Riaz Shah in Parachinar. The same day, a suicide attack on an army outpost in Swat Valley killed two civilians and injured eight people. A polling location in Bajaur was destroyed by militants earlier.

Swat Valley has 22 districts. Again, only Matta was targetted back then. And that suicide bomb, if I correctly remember, took place in Matta. And Matta is a very small village with lots of land (where Army is trying to build a Cantonment).

So just in case you didn't know, that suicide bomb was the only bomb blast as far I remember with a couple of other incidents, that took place in far away lands of Swat valley called Matta and Kabal. The main towns, Buner, Shangla, Malakand, Minagawara (which is like 90% of the population) had no problems whatsoever (tho threats were there, but threats were everywhere in Pakistan, isn't it?)

And just to let you know, Buner, Shangla, Malakand, they still have no problems. They strictly told Army not to intefere and they will take care of the militants themselves, and they did. Similarly Dir did the same thing, and no problem there. Similarly Kohistan (Kalam/madain/bahrain etc.) did the same thing, and no problem there either. And Shangla par, Chae kesar, and other small towns, they told Army they will take care of them and they did, no problems at all.

MMA’s four of the six parties did take part in the elections. Link-1 Link-2 Link-3

As I said in my previous post, voters had the choice to vote between the Islamic parties and secularist parties, they voted for the secularist.

Well, that's why I said. There was no MMA to vote for (as you just confirmed). Even tho people hate Maulana Diesel (Fazul ur rahman) but Qazi have some very strong public support. You'll find out this in next election for sure.

In the 2002 elections, MMA won by playing to anti-American sentiment over the American led invasion of Afghanistan. In the past elections, religious parties have never won more than five or six seat either in the provincial or national assemblies. I don’t think people are going to trust the Taliban supporters again.

And NWFP did not vote for MMA back in 2002 because they were playing on sentiments of American invasion. In fact, PPP and ANP both played on those sentiments and tried to invoke people's emotions, but they miserablly failed. PML-N was in power before the coup-de-etat, and nobody liked that party so they didn't win.

Swatis also rendered as Swatayan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_(tribe)
The Swati (also Swatey in Pashto) is a Pashtun tribe.

Swatis - Definition of Swatis at YourDictionary.com
Swati Definition
Swati (swä′t&#275
noun pl. Swati -•ti or Swatis -•tis
a member of a people of Muslim faith living in Swat

Actually the Wiki is incorrect. It's possibly written by someone who doesn't know. (Even there are many among Pakhtuns who doesn't knwo the difference).

Swati is a different ethnicity. They were the people who use to live in swat back in 15th century, when yusufzai tribes came and conquered the land and pushed the Swatis into, now called, hazarajat. i.e. Abbottabad, Mansehra, etc. They use the surname "Swati", where the Pashtuns of Swat, does not.

The original term is "Swatay" for Pashtuns in Swat and "Swati" for the other nation that can also be found in some quarters of Swat and mainly in Hazarajat.

So you see there's a vast difference between two. And no, I am not making that up, this is a fact. Besides you should not believe in Wiki to base your argument. Wiki is a useful tool, but its most distorted source ever.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
Swatis themselves have been intimidated into keeping silent about Fazlullah and criticising only the army and its “collateral damage”. But the channels can no longer conceal the fact that the Swatis are now praying for America’s drone attacks in their valley as the last resort.

first of all its a false information that people are asking for American drone attacks. if someone joked about it and a reporter caught that, it's a different story. Or you are welcome to Swat (I will protect you and will ensure your safe return back to wherever you came from) and lets have a ground reality check.

And one thing I want to clarify that. It depends which part of Swat are you talking about. Mingawara (our town), matta, kabal, etc. are not in favour of maulana Radio. They despise him. The upper swat (where theres no electricity and no nothing) was in support of Maulana Fm, but things are changing there as well, and they have to, Maulana FM is not doing anything Islamic per se. Besides there is not one party involved there. There are several groups, yet all are called Taliban and theya re all mixed in one pot and treated similarly, tho everyone have different agenda.

But that doesn't bar people from criticising collateral damage of Army (which is higher than what talibans caused before army intervention).

Things are really different on ground than what you will read on news my friend. You must visit Swat and interview people if you want to find the truth.

However, this video might help you understand whats going on there - http://awaz.tv/playvideo.asp?pageId=1969

 

[waraich66]

no one here is a western modernist, you should take a look at yourself. you are an extremist, a takfirist, and a part of khwaarij that will eagerly help the dajjal. I suggest you take a few pills subscribed by a psychiatrist, otherwise we may see you blow yourself up in lahore.

You need little break , i was thinking by your name that you are well groomed and have little bit understanding of islam but i was wrong and suggest you read islam history and grow your self .

When you use bad names for any muslim it is tohmat but if these bad names are wrong it is bohtan .

In both cases you are quilty.

That is reason better read meanings and significance of kalma,namaz,ilum zakir,ikramul muslimeen,taseh neat,dawat and tableeg.

These are basic things we need to learn and understand in islam.we should not fight with each other but try find who is our real enemy.

 

[RedBaron]

...
However, this video might help you understand whats going on there - Capital Talk – 19th January 2009

Very informative interview, thanks Pashtun...the interviewer was pushing for some tough answers from the politicians and the politicians (like politicians everywhere) were evading the tough questions.
- I was surprised to see that the PPP MNA does not feel any purpose would be served by his going to Swat. Even if his visit is symbolic, it would surely give some confidence to people still living in Swat that their leaders still care...
- The producers did well by airing the views of the religious scholars who were unanimous that education for girls should be encouraged.
- It was obvious from the reporting that the people of Swat are decent folks whose land and lives has been hijacked by these militants.

 

[RabzonKhan]

enforcing their brand of sharia, all responses up to 90 percent were in the negative.

The people of Swat have paid with their lives and their way of life because of the past flip-flop of policy and strategy in Islamabad.

The people of Swat had opted for the secular-nationalist ANP after rejecting the clerics who had a soft corner of the sharia of Fazlullah.

This is exactly what I have been saying over and over again.


Editorial: Why Swat was let down

The Prime Minister’s Interior Adviser, Mr Rehman Malik, has told the Senate that a new strategy had been worked out to combat militancy in Swat but he was prepared to discuss it only in camera. He appeared confident that the terrorists would be flushed out of Swat “in a few weeks”. As he spoke, the army renewed its operation in the valley targeting the Taliban hideouts with artillery and helicopter gunships. It appears that a new vigour has come into the military effort to liberate the people of Swat from the tyranny of the warlord, Fazlullah.

The Senate also heard some of the surveys carried out in the Tribal Areas by Pakistan Institute of Legislative Development and Transparency (PILDAT), making clear what the people really thought of the Taliban. To questions whether they approve of the Taliban governance, their policy of destroying schools, blowing up CD shops and enforcing their brand of sharia, all responses up to 90 percent were in the negative. This explodes the “theorisings” of the many TV critics of military operation — “this is not Pakistan’s war” — in the region. What was shown repeatedly and recklessly on private TV channels in the past as the local population’s support to the Taliban and their opposition to Pakistani troops fighting “America’s war” has now been revealed as pure fabrication and mere opposition politics.

Mr Malik also stripped the veil from those elements who have been active in the commission of terrorism in Swat. He named “Al Qaeda, Tehrik-e-Taliban as led by Maulana Fazlullah, Tanzeem-e-Islami, the Tora Bora group, and the Qari Mushtaq group”. He could have named a few more but that may have revealed flaws in the policy of the state towards “non-state actors” that it employed as “freedom fighters” in the past. More precisely, giving more details would have revealed the folly of not getting rid of the terrorist outfits instead of allowing them to change their names under flimsy legal justifications and letting them function as charity organisations. In short, one can say that the state’s policy of allowing multiple centres of power to emerge in the country under the guise of jihad has facilitated the possible emergence of many “statelets” within Pakistan from where the world could be threatened.

The “supply” connection of South Waziristan with Swat was also brought out by Mr Malik when he said that warriors and suicide-bombers were supplied by a Taliban commander named Qari Hussain Ahmed, through Maulana Namdar. Since eyewitnesses of the Swat mayhem have seen groups of non-Pakhtun foreigners beheading Swatis at will, it cannot be ruled out that Al Qaeda is strongly represented here. Mr Malik says that Swat got less attention from the army because of the distraction of Bajaur and Mohmand in the neighbourhood. Thus one won’t be surprised in some future time to learn that Al Qaeda leaders like Osama bin Laden, Ayman Al Zawahiri and Baitullah Mehsud took their R&R in Swat because of its exemption from the attention of the state.

The people of Swat have paid with their lives and their way of life because of the past flip-flop of policy and strategy in Islamabad. Additionally, the ANP government has suffered immeasurably because of this dereliction of duty and responsibility. The people of Swat had opted for the secular-nationalist ANP after rejecting the clerics who had a soft corner of the sharia of Fazlullah. The elected ANP leadership in Swat was cruelly treated and made to flee the area while Islamabad was distracted by the internecine activities of the politicians. The “unanimous” resolution of the parliament actually tells the army to “get out of the Trial Areas” while it now transpires that the people of Swat were actually praying for the Pakistan Army to come and relieve them of their torture. *

 

[waraich66]

Dont mix fazullah and MMA brands,We have seen MMA acted as B team of Musharaf that is reason public voted against them but Fazullah dont have political party or financial aims got popularity in general public due to bad image of ANP and MMA next time if TTP entered in political system definately they will get maximum vote ,but i dont think they will accept to surrender arms and participate in political system which is againt shariah law.

 

[Xeric]

Apparently the media was very controlled.

Oh wow, how and when did this happen??
The media has never been so free. Dude they were just asked not to show anything 'live' so what they did was that they used to show EVERYTHING with a delay

of few minutes thereby fulfilling the requirement of the sanctions of a "not-live" TV.

There were multiple reports, multiple photographs, multiple individual interviews of the families and many private channels aired the interviews. I

watched them and I believe many others would have too.

If you call repeat telecast as Multiple then yes there were multiple reports. Damn! you are right

This is what one of the news says abut the parents and families of the affected, close to 600 entertained? thats a large number tho you came up with

1500, but obviously we are working on hypothesis here with whatever information available:

Cheema said the government is taking great strides and making every possible effort to facilitate the parents and relatives of Lal Masjid students.
The spokesman said that over 600 people had been entertained at the facilitation cell at sports complex till date, and had submitted 80 applications

regarding their dear ones.
He said out of the 80, 64 applications have been referred for DNA tests and five people were referred to the hospital as their relatives were under treatment

there, while one has been identified dead by National Database Registration Authority (NADRA) record. “47 claimants have gone through the DNA tests, so far,”

he added.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Thats what i have been making you and the other dude understand that its not always the media that is to be believed. Media is a POWER and it has the

capability to INFLUENCE, influence people like you and others, who blindly believes what ever is shown to them.
Media wants that it should be watched and read. And they will do anything to achieve this. May it be against the state policy and may it be harming the

reputation of a prestiges institute.
And BTW not to mention are 'most watched media' has already proven at many occasions as regards to its anti-state propagandas and issues.

i can qoute an example here. Many people have been saying that why there was a need to strom the mosque. The govt and the Army should have just dicsonected

the gas, water electricity and other supplies to the mosque and those people should have come out by themslves!
But what about the fact that people like Hamid Mir were recharging the cell phones of the Mullahs and spokesmen inside the mosque with easyload.
Just so that they can talk and in turn people will watch and the media will make MORE money. Dude!!!
And you talk about the other stupid stuff.

Watching the show on a movie is easy!!!
And lastly, it was NOT Army's desicion to conduct the operation. The Army receive request ffom the govt and in turn the Army does what is better and

feasible that too with the consent of the GOVERMENT, OKAY!!

It's not a jungle that any tom, dick and harry can get up and do what ever they want to and jump inside the mosque and kill "300 young girls"
The Army follow instructions, and thats what is happening in Swat and Wana. You people ask the Army to do something nad when your own *** is kicked then you

shout and come up with lame excuse that my house was screwed and my crops were burnt!!!
Why dont you join the Army and see, if it is easy to raze a house to ground. Or for that matter when you are in active operation you'll do what ever is

better for the mission at hand and it may include the above mentioned acts.
And who is going to answer for the Army people who got killed in operation just to Avoid COLLATERAL DAMAGE!!!

 

[Pashtun]

This is exactly what I have been saying over and over again.


Editorial: Why Swat was let down

The Prime Minister’s Interior Adviser, Mr Rehman Malik, has told the Senate that a new strategy had been worked out to combat militancy in Swat but he was prepared to discuss it only in camera. He appeared confident that the terrorists would be flushed out of Swat “in a few weeks”. As he spoke, the army renewed its operation in the valley targeting the Taliban hideouts with artillery and helicopter gunships. It appears that a new vigour has come into the military effort to liberate the people of Swat from the tyranny of the warlord, Fazlullah.

The Senate also heard some of the surveys carried out in the Tribal Areas by Pakistan Institute of Legislative Development and Transparency (PILDAT), making clear what the people really thought of the Taliban. To questions whether they approve of the Taliban governance, their policy of destroying schools, blowing up CD shops and enforcing their brand of sharia, all responses up to 90 percent were in the negative. This explodes the “theorisings” of the many TV critics of military operation — “this is not Pakistan’s war” — in the region. What was shown repeatedly and recklessly on private TV channels in the past as the local population’s support to the Taliban and their opposition to Pakistani troops fighting “America’s war” has now been revealed as pure fabrication and mere opposition politics.

Mr Malik also stripped the veil from those elements who have been active in the commission of terrorism in Swat. He named “Al Qaeda, Tehrik-e-Taliban as led by Maulana Fazlullah, Tanzeem-e-Islami, the Tora Bora group, and the Qari Mushtaq group”. He could have named a few more but that may have revealed flaws in the policy of the state towards “non-state actors” that it employed as “freedom fighters” in the past. More precisely, giving more details would have revealed the folly of not getting rid of the terrorist outfits instead of allowing them to change their names under flimsy legal justifications and letting them function as charity organisations. In short, one can say that the state’s policy of allowing multiple centres of power to emerge in the country under the guise of jihad has facilitated the possible emergence of many “statelets” within Pakistan from where the world could be threatened.

The “supply” connection of South Waziristan with Swat was also brought out by Mr Malik when he said that warriors and suicide-bombers were supplied by a Taliban commander named Qari Hussain Ahmed, through Maulana Namdar. Since eyewitnesses of the Swat mayhem have seen groups of non-Pakhtun foreigners beheading Swatis at will, it cannot be ruled out that Al Qaeda is strongly represented here. Mr Malik says that Swat got less attention from the army because of the distraction of Bajaur and Mohmand in the neighbourhood. Thus one won’t be surprised in some future time to learn that Al Qaeda leaders like Osama bin Laden, Ayman Al Zawahiri and Baitullah Mehsud took their R&R in Swat because of its exemption from the attention of the state.

The people of Swat have paid with their lives and their way of life because of the past flip-flop of policy and strategy in Islamabad. Additionally, the ANP government has suffered immeasurably because of this dereliction of duty and responsibility. The people of Swat had opted for the secular-nationalist ANP after rejecting the clerics who had a soft corner of the sharia of Fazlullah. The elected ANP leadership in Swat was cruelly treated and made to flee the area while Islamabad was distracted by the internecine activities of the politicians. The “unanimous” resolution of the parliament actually tells the army to “get out of the Trial Areas” while it now transpires that the people of Swat were actually praying for the Pakistan Army to come and relieve them of their torture. *

Sir, I didn't get the meaning of this post. What were you trying to explain or pointing out?

Is it that you are thinking I am trying to build a case for militants? I hope not. Can you be little more elaborative as to what are you extracting or understanding from my posts and what are you countering as your counter argument? Thank you

 

[Xeric]

Well why would I have to say things that I already agree with? such as praying for the soldiers that lost their lives on the orders of their elites. One should be questioning it when you hear someone saying "the soldiers are not shaheeds" etc. (and I don't believe anyone have said anything like that here have they?) I mean we all know how disciplined the army is, and the soldiers even have to do the wrong things as long the orders are placed. They have no choice to make their own decisions.

Here again you are wrong!
Ya the Army is very discipline but that doesn't mean that their seniors make them do 'wrong' things!
And yes in Army people do make their own decision!!
Thats how the Army works, military is all about "decision making"

Thats how the army elites gets away with their crimes. My heart goes to those who lost their precious lives for decisions of individuals.

Would you like to define 'elite"
What do yiu mean by that!!!
do you think those 'elite' of yours are just elites because they were born with silver spoon in their mouth??
Dude they have earned it. And they not banks VPs and others who earn 6 figure salaries and spend a healthy wealthy life with their families for ever and enjoy their lives as if they are Kings.
Many of the Army Officers ( to include Officers of other services) are "chosen". By this i mean they are selected through a very tough process. Had they been not in the Army i can assure you they would have been on other much better jobs as regards to pays and perks and privileges!!!
But why would you care!! getting everything in your mouth, living and having a wonderful life, why would you think about that soldier who is sitting at 20000 Ms above the sea level and people like you are enjoying in Fortress Lahore, Jinnah Super in Islamabad or Tariq Road karachi!!, or for that matter who thinks about soldier who is fighting in Wana and Swat and watching is comrades being killed on daily basis. He doesn't sleep well not because he is afraid but because he is awake so people like you can sleep!!
And dude there is NO elite in the Army. They all are f*** through out their youth and then reach the top brass just after being filtered, rubbed and polished through out their carrier.

But that doesn't mean that one cannot qustion the corruption in the army.

Oh wow!
i have now serious doubts that you are a Pakistani!
Please specify me some one who has been doing corruption! yes black sheep are always there, but it is 0ne in thousands!
And BTW, what kind of corruption can an Officer do..?? Would he sell Artillery Shells to people like you who have not even seen an artillery gun, or would they sell DMS shoes which people like you usually make fun of, or would he sell Tank Ammo to people like you who dont even know their names, or would that officer sell the Ration of soldiers, which in total do not cost more than a few thousand rupees. Just tell me who idiot will do your so called corruption just for the sake of a few thousand bucks!!!???? and kick his 'rozi roti'.
And mind it i can name hundreds in the Army who are position holders in the pre-Army studies, had been doing jobs or had been studying in the elite colleges and universities of Pakistan. They just join the Army because of their motivation despite of the fact the Army has nothing to offer them execpt BLOOD, SWEAT and TOIL!!!

Or the power that have got into their heads.

Again wrong in this one!
Just because they like to do things on merit and like to pay for what they have bought (unlike the Police) doesn't qualify them for the above mentioned blame!!

Or the heavy handedness they showed on their own people that they sworn to protect,

Wrong again!
BTW they will kick you if you will finger them!!!

while the outsiders are violating country's soverighnty left n right and killing our citizens and telling us "do whatever you can, the drone attacks ain't going to stop", yet we have no balls to stop that,

Well please it is a serious request can you recommedn me with a few option that the Army can do in order to prevent the drone attacks withoput putting the security of you people at stake. i'll be looking forward for your eply in this regards, and i'll pray that you raech the top brass of the govt to implement it.(please don't tell me stupid things which are NOT possible). Talking is easier than doing!!!

but when it comes to our own people, we tell them "we will hit you from there where you would never expect".

YES!! they will hit you from there where you would never expect, when you will ask for it!!!! Why were you mongering the other day that the Army is not doing 'much' to stop militancy!!
Idiot do you think the militancy will stop while initiating a request to the hardcore killers, who you are so afraid that you have ran away from your homes and sh** in your pants while sleeping when they chop off a head of someone!!! You really are lost!!!

Why can't we question that as citizens of the country, who work hard and pay with their sweat and blood to run the army and other institutions?

NO! you don't pay them.
You pay taxes like every other citizen of any other country!!
BTW the ARMY Officers pay MORE taxes than YOU!!! i can bet on that !!!!!