Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’

[gambit]

Keep doing, since you are doing all this on a public forum, more and more are coming to learn about the shallowness of your insignificant personality and with every such striptease, you are loosing some more respect you had mischievously earned through copying and pasting others work and posing as an expert of 'certain areas'.

Now you getting desperate with this plagiarism charge. Whenever I explain a working principle, I will supply the readership with sources so they can verify for themselves if I had violated any laws of physics or common sense. I challenge you to find anyone here who can legitimately argue that I plagiarized anyone's work. Quoting a source and including a link to said source does not qualify as plagiarism. It is called proper attribution and credit. And you expect us to believe that you are a PhD with hoity-toity high society friends when you cannot comprehend the differences between plagiarism and proper attribution?



Go back to your university sandbox, kid. I have never said anything about my educational level since anyone can say anything about himself on an anonymous forum. I let my arguments and the sources speaks to the readership and let people decide if my sources support my arguments. They know that if I have no relevant experience in the subject matter I would not be able to bring to them those sources in the first place. Get it, young fool?

 

[ViXuyen]

gambit is a very typical american, the u.s is always the best

It's people like this that constantly claim that the F-22 is the best and can't be defeated in battle, even if PAK FA sees F-22 it infront of it, PAK-FA missle and radar would not get a lock onto it. Geeze, when a claim is always get the confirmation by the U.S airforce only, who would believe it to be true?

The U.S's weapon has never shown anyone that it is better than the Russian's ones. The Gulf War 1 was about 1500 F-15,16,18 against no more than 20 Mig 29, it was not a war that 1500 U.S aircraft met 1500 Mig29,Mig31, or S-300 in battles. same thing with Gulf War 2, even the Iraqi T-72 was nothing but monkey models with no air support that the U.S is so into proving that it is better than the Abram non-exported version with all air support

It is a simple fact the U.S has always defeated a group of third-worlders armed with monkey model severely downgraded version of Russian weapons, not to mention they are at least being outnumbered 100 times by the U.S as well; in fact, the U.S's biggest accomplishment is defeating just a bunch of Russian "junks"

 

[Thomas]

The U.S's weapon has never shown anyone that it is better than the Russian's ones.

U.S. F-15 Eagle Kill Records:

5 Iraqi Mig-29 Fulcrums
7 Iraqi Mirage F-1's
8 Iraqi Mig-23's
2 Iraqi Mig-21's
1 Iraqi ll-76
2 Iraqi SU-25 Frogfoots
3 Iarqi SU-7/17
1 Iraqi MI-24 Hind
2 Iraqi SU-22 Fitters
2 Iraqi MIG-25 Foxbats
4 Serbian Mig-29 Fulcrums
1 Afghan MI-24 Hind (F-15E)

Israeli F-15 kill records:

80-92 Mig-21 Fishbeds
several MIG-25 Foxbats

Royal Saudi Air Force F-15 kill records:

2 Iranian F-4E Phantoms
2 Iraqi F-1 Mirages
1 Iraqi Mig-25

Japanese F-15 kill record:

1 Japanese F-15J (accidental shooting by another Japanese F-15J)

U.S. F/A-18C Hornet kill record:

2 Mig-21 Fishbeds

U.S. F-14 Tomcat kill records:

2 Libyan SU-22 Fitters
2 Libyan Mig-23 Floggers
1 Iraqi MI-8 Hip

Iranian F-14 Tomcat kill record:

?????

U.S. F-16 Fighting Falcon kill records:

1 Iraqi Mig-29 or Mig-23
1 Serbian Mig-29
4 Serbian Soko G-4 Super Galebs
1 Iraqi Mig-25 (first AMRAAM kill)

Israel F-16 kill records:

2 Syrian MI-8 Hips
44 Syrian Migs (mostly Floggers)

Dutch F-16 kill record:

1 Serbian Mig-29

PAF F-16 kill records:

2 Russian SU-22 Fitters
8 Afghan Aircrafts



U.S. A-10 Warthog kill record (tanks and aircrafts):

2 Iraqi Mi-8 Hips
850 + Iraqi T-72 MBTs, T-62 MBTs, & T-55 MBTs
300 Iraqi APCs

U.K AV-8A Sea Harrier kills in the Falkland War:

1 C-130 Hercules
1 Mirage III
9 Mirage V's
1 Canberra
1 Pucara
6 A-4 Skyhawks



Iraqi MIG-25PD kill record:

1 U.S. Navy F/A-18C Hornet

Ethiopian SU-27 kill record:

4 Eritrean MiG-29s

Eritrean MiG-29 kill record:

1 Ethiopian Mig-21

Russian MIG-29 Fulcrum kill record:

1 Afghan SU-22 Fitter

Iraqi Mig-21 kill record:

1 Iranian F-14 Tomcat
Other Iranian/Kuwait aircrafts?

Indian Mig-21 kill record:

4 PAF F-104 Starfighters

 

[gambit]

gambit is a very typical american, the u.s is always the best

Thanks...I have a hot G/F, a house, a Toyota P/U, a Jeep Cherokee, a Saab 95SE, a Buell Lightning and a few guns. Other than a mortgage, everything is paid for, including the hot G/F She checked me out on my bike and it was 'Sold...!!!'. Women love to straddle things. Get a bike if you want to meet hot women.

It's people like this that constantly claim that the F-22 is the best and can't be defeated in battle,...

Never said so.

...even if PAK FA sees F-22 it infront of it, PAK-FA missle and radar would not get a lock onto it. Geeze, when a claim is always get the confirmation by the U.S airforce only, who would believe it to be true?

Supposedly...A few F-15 pilots could not get a radar lock on the F-22 in front of them, even when they have their eyeballs on the F-22. My explanations on how this is possible is here...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/674081-post266.html

I am not saying that is absolutely applicable to every fighter out there but the F-15 has one of the larger, if not the largest, fighter-class radar deployed. We know nothing about the PAK-FA other than it sedately flew for about an hour before landing to a cheering crowd. No doubt glad that their employments are assured in a deteriorating economy. I believe I provided sufficient sources and keywords for you to search further on your own.

The U.S's weapon has never shown anyone that it is better than the Russian's ones. The Gulf War 1 was about 1500 F-15,16,18 against no more than 20 Mig 29, it was not a war that 1500 U.S aircraft met 1500 Mig29,Mig31, or S-300 in battles. same thing with Gulf War 2, even the Iraqi T-72 was nothing but monkey models with no air support that the U.S is so into proving that it is better than the Abram non-exported version with all air support

It is a simple fact the U.S has always defeated a group of third-worlders armed with monkey model severely downgraded version of Russian weapons, not to mention they are at least being outnumbered 100 times by the U.S as well; in fact, the U.S's biggest accomplishment is defeating just a bunch of Russian "junks"

Sigh...Ever wonder why the USSR never got around to face US directly? Keep in mind that the Soviet bloc held the numerical advantage throughout the Cold War.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force

It is a startling picture, memorializing a moment of air-to-air combat from January 19, 1991, over Iraq. Air-to-air combat has become exceedingly rare. Even when it happens, modern fighter pilots are rarely close enough to actually see the person they are shooting at. This image recalls a kill registered by Rodriguez, who goes by Rico, and his wingman, Craig Underhill, known as Mole, during the Gulf War.

The F‑15 in the distance is Rodriguez’s.

“The guy who is actually sitting in the cockpit staring out at this, he’s locked on to me with his radar, and that,” he said, pointing at the missile, “is about to hit him in the face.”

“So this is an artist’s rendering?”

“No,” said Rodriguez. “That’s actually the real picture.”

A special-operations team combed the Iraqi MiG’s crash site, and this was one of the items salvaged, the last millisecond of incoming data from the doomed Iraqi pilot’s HUD, or head-up display. It was the final splash of light on his retinas, probably arriving too late for his brain to process before being vaporized with the rest of his corporeal frame.

What you failed to understand is that the air-air combat environment is essentially a mano-a-mano engagement, even when there is a wingman involved. The lead take the fight while his wingman protect his rear. The USAF is now the only air force in the world that is in possession of a man's last view before he die.

 

[chantpapipart2]

@ Gambit

I really enjoy reading your posts, very informative and largely accurate. As far kill record is concerned...don't you think in future this type of record is difficult to maintain, especially in case Indian Su 30mki face F16 or Indonesian Su face Aussie f 18SH.

 

[gambit]

@ Gambit

I really enjoy reading your posts, very informative and largely accurate. As far kill record is concerned...don't you think in future this type of record is difficult to maintain, especially in case Indian Su 30mki face F16 or Indonesian Su face Aussie f 18SH.

Yes it would...But with certain caveats...

I said it before here and will repeat -- That a newly promoted general or admiral does not always guarantee new ideas, tactics or strategies. But a new weapon will always present options and possibilities.

Another thing worthwhile to remember is that in a fight, you win by forcing your opponent to fight by your rules, not by you fighting under his. If there are any advantages such as higher roll or climb rate, they are advantages and they are rules.

Here is an excellent example incorporating both of the above arguments...

Operation Bolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...the MiG-21 had rapid acceleration, was agile at supersonic speeds and at high altitudes, and significantly outperformed its primary target – the F-105 Thunderchief - in all flight regimes.

The MIG-21 has many superior characteristics compared to the F-4. But as Operation Bolo showed, the MIG-21 pilots were constrained in their training and tactics, so when they met these F-4 pilots who decided to change their tactics, the heavier and less maneuverable F-4s forced the MIG-21 pilots to fight by the F-4's rules, which was superior power and longer endurance.

So even if we give the new Iraqi Air Force the F-22, they would be swiftly defeated because these pilots would not know how to exploit the capabilities of the F-22 compared to how well knowledgeable the average F-15 and F-16 pilots are to theirs. On the other hand...If we put Manny Richthofen in an F-15 cockpit he would be so bewildered he would probably run off the taxiway, let alone take-off and fight.

The key here is training and how good is that training in improving the synergy between pilots and aircrafts -- plural. If the MKI pilot has inferior training despite being in a superior ship, he will be forced to fight under his opponent's rules and there will not be a rematch. For countries that must import their defense mechanisms, such as aircrafts, ships, tanks and rifles, an aircraft loss is a major loss. All the more reasons why you should NEVER focus on these 'kill ratios' so far. They can give you a false sense of security. Instead, you should examine your potential adversary's usage of his new war machines, his training regiment, and of course, how many of these machines he has and can deploy.

 

[ptldM3]

Thomas- you copied and pasted your list from a forum , neither you or the original poster had a link to varify the claims. Next time don't plagiarize. AKA take credit for someones elses work,

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...svC8Cw&usg=AFQjCNFkcPPp25PZVXNt1AanS1frfVvEMg

Sigh...Ever wonder why the USSR never got around to face US directly? Keep in mind that the Soviet bloc held the numerical advantage throughout the Cold War.

.

Yes we did, and bold parts represent Russian kills. (Korea)

Top Russian Aces Kills (*) Comments Medal (**) Unit
Nikolai V. Sutyagin 21 (12) 9 F-86s, 1 F-84, 1 Meteor. Shot-up Glenn Eagleston HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev 19 (12) shot down F-86A #49-1319, brought to USSR HSU CO of 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Lev Kirilovich Shchukin 17 (10) shot-up the F-86E of Francis Gabreski, downed 2 times HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Sergei M. Kramarenko 13 (7) shot down 5 F-86s, 1 F-84 and 1 Meteor, downed once HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Ivan V. Suchkov 12 (2) 2 B-29s HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Stepan A. Bahayev 11 (5) - HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Konstantin N. Sheberstov 11 (2) 1 B-29A, 1 F-86A HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii U. Ohay 11 (3) 2 Meteors, 1 F-80C HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail S. Ponomaryev 11 (2) - HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Dmitri A. Samoylov 10 (4) 3 F-86s, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Pavel S. Milaushkin 10 (2) 1 F-86, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Dmitri P. Oskin 9 (2) 2 B-29s on Oct 23 '51 HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail I. Mihin 9 (3) all F-86E/Fs - 518 IAP, 216 IAD
Aleksandr P. Smorchkov 8 (4) 3 B-29s on October 1951 HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Grigorii I. Pulov 8 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 RF-80A HSU CO of 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Serafim P. Subbotin 8 (4) 2 F-86s, 1 B-29, 1 Meteor HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Semen A. Fedorets 8 (5) shot down by Joseph McConnell April 12 '53 LO 913 IAP, 32 IAD
V. N. Alfeyev 7 (2) on May 20 1951 shot-up the F-86A of James Jabara RB 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Fiodor A. Shebanov 6 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, KIA Oct '51 HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii I. Ges 6 (3) 1 B-29A, 1 B-26B, 1 F-51D HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Anatoly M. Karelin 6 (5) all B-29s at night HSU 351 IAP
Arkadii S. Boitsov 6 (3) 2 F-86s, 1 F-80 conf. by USAF - 16 IAP, 97 IAD
Nikolai I. Ivanov 6 (4) 3 F-86Es, 1 RF-86A LO 726 IAP, 133 IAD
Nikolai M. Zameskin 6 (2) 2 F-86E/F HSU 878 IAP, 216 IAD
Boris S. Abakumov 5 (3) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, 1 Phanter HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii N. Berelidze 5 (3) shot down Harold Fischer on April 7 1953 RB 224 IAP, 32 IAD

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...5PDfCQ&usg=AFQjCNG1dECpcLc2AL7e7w6XvvxvWUMZfg

Here's more.


•April 8th, 1950 A US Navy PB4Y-2 Privateer was shot down by 23mm cannon fire from a pair of Soviet Lavochkin La-11 fighters over the Baltic Sea near what is now Latvia. The ten man crew was presumed dead and has not been found. In 1993 retired Soviet General Fyodor Shinkarenko stated that he believed the wreckage was secretly salvaged and sent to Moscow.
•December 4th 1950 A USAF RB-45C Tornado was shot down by 23mm cannon fire cannon fire from Soviet Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG) 15’s over China near the North Korean border. Two of the four crewmen died in the attack. The remaining two bailed out across the North Korean border and were captured. One was killed during interrogation and the second was hung.
•December 26th, 1950 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress (converted from atom bomb dropper to photographic reconnaissance aircraft) was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan.
•November 6th, 1951 A US Navy P2V-3 Neptune was shot down near Vladivostok by two Soviet La-11 fighters. The ten men crew was presumed dead.
•June 13, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters over the Sea of Japan. The American recon aircraft was intercepted nine miles off the coast and quickly destroyed. The 12-man crew was presumed dead however unconfirmed reports surfaced that one had survived long enough to be picked up by a Soviet ship in the area. Who this crewman was and his ultimate fate is unknown.
•October 7, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by machine gun fire from Soviet La-11 fighters over the Kurile Islands. The eight man crew was all presumed dead. In 1994 the remains of one of the crewmen, Captain John R Dunham was located and returned to the US after former Soviet documents related that a crewman had been found and was buried on nearby Yuri Island. Former Soviet KGB Maritime Border Guards sailor Vasili Saiko came forward in 1993 and gave the US Naval Academy a ring that he took from Captain Dunham's body in 1952. The ring was eventually given to Captain Dunham’s widow.
•July 29th, 1953 A USAF RB-50G Superfortress was shot down near Vladivostok by cannon fire from two MiG-17s. A single survivor of the 18-man crew was pulled from the sea by a destroyer. A week later the remains of two more of the crew washed up in the coast of Japan. Conflicting reports after the Cold War by former Soviet military personnel who were present at the event seem to indicate that others may have survived in Soviet custody but are unaccounted for.
•September 4th, 1954 A US Navy P2V-5 flying from Atsugi Japan was shot down over water by cannon fire from two MiG-15s off the coast of Siberia. The pilot ditched in international waters and was rescued with the loss of one crewman.
•November 7th 1954 USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters near northern Japan. Ten of the eleven-man crew was rescued while one unlucky crewman drowned.
•April 17th 1955 USAF RB-47E was shot down by a cannon fire from a pair of MiG-15s near Kamchatka off the Siberian coast. The three-man crew was presumed killed.
•June 22nd, 1955 US Navy P2V-5 Neptune flying over the Bearing Strait in international waters was jumped by two Soviet MiG-15s. The pilots managed to crash land the stricken plane on US territory and the crew survived although most were injured.
•Christmas Eve 1957 A USAF RB-57 was shot down over the Black Sea by Soviet fighters and its crew all died.
•June27 1958 USAF C-118 Liftmaster transport (military version of a Douglas DC-6) reportedly used by the CIA at one time was shot down by rocket and cannon fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The aircraft was destroyed but the crews parachuted to safety and were given back by the Soviets a week later.
•September 2nd, 1958 USAF C-130A Hercules transport modified for signals intelligence was shot down by cannon and rocket fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The entire crew died. Six of the bodies were given back by the Soviets that year and the remaining 11 were recovered by the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission on POWs/ MIAs in 1998.
•May 1st 1960 CIA owned U-2 spy plane flown by Gary Powers a "sheep-dipped" Air Force officer flying as a civilian from a base in Pakistan was shot down by a lucky hit from one of at least 14 SA-2 surface to air missiles ripple fired at it over Sverdlosk (formerly called Yekaterinburg back in 1918 when the Tsar was killed there) in about the most absolute center of the Soviet Union. Powers was captured and embarrassingly placed on public trail before going home in 1962
•July 1st 1960, USAF RB-47H Stratojet flying over the Barents Sea was shot down by 30mm cannon fire from a Soviet MiG-19. Four crewmembers were killed and two were captured and held for six months by the KGB.
•October 27 1962 USAF U-2 of the 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing shot down by another magic BB SA-2 Guideline surface to air missile over Cuba from a Soviet manned battery. The pilot was posthumously awarded the Air Force Cross.
•January 24, 1964 USAF T-39 Sabreliner flying from West Germany on a training mission crossed over East German airspace and was downed by a Soviet MiG-21, killing all three aboard.
•March 10, 1964 USAF RB-66 Destroyer was shot down over East Germany by a Soviet MiG-21 on a flight from West Berlin when it crossed out of authorized airspace over East German airspace. The crew was rescued and repatriated.
•October 21, 1970 US Army RU-8 Seminole flying from Turkey (military variant of a Beech craft twin engine) lost over Soviet Armenia


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jKy8Cw&usg=AFQjCNHE7EW9P6rf9mEGiPKDEYOotSnnsw

Thomas looks like you forgot Vietnam.

I couldn't find US air-to-air losses over Vietnam; however,the US lost a total of 2,251. This is not counting Australian and other allied aircraft losses.

The Arabs, Koreans, and Chinese gave Soviet aircraft a bad name; however, if you look at the combat record of Soviet aircraft in the hands of capable pilots then everything changes. Here is some examples, and of course don't forget the Soviet pilots over Korea.

PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes [ flying Soviet aircraft, and suffering 0 losses]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...m5DLCA&usg=AFQjCNFA-e-lUfBs-AaD-h_5-SNeI4A0ng


Egyptians to ask the Soviet Union for help. In June 1970, Soviet pilots and SAM crews arrived with their equipment. On 22 June 1970, a Soviet pilot flying a MiG-21MF shot down an Israeli A-4E. After some more successful intercepts by Soviet pilots and another Israeli A-4 being shot down on July 25

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...ztWyDw&usg=AFQjCNGV4Ib6eJJeKF5_XaaWwRk7HtNfhQ

There is also the India/Pakistani air wars but the kills vary from both side.

 

[freddiemaize]

Sry. same mistake.. I got the name wrong.. :|

 

[Thomas]

Thomas- you copied and pasted your list from a forum



Top Russian Aces Kills (*) Comments Medal (**) Unit
Nikolai V. Sutyagin 21 (12) 9 F-86s, 1 F-84, 1 Meteor. Shot-up Glenn Eagleston HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev 19 (12) shot down F-86A #49-1319, brought to USSR HSU CO of 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Lev Kirilovich Shchukin 17 (10) shot-up the F-86E of Francis Gabreski, downed 2 times HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Sergei M. Kramarenko 13 (7) shot down 5 F-86s, 1 F-84 and 1 Meteor, downed once HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Ivan V. Suchkov 12 (2) 2 B-29s HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Stepan A. Bahayev 11 (5) - HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Konstantin N. Sheberstov 11 (2) 1 B-29A, 1 F-86A HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii U. Ohay 11 (3) 2 Meteors, 1 F-80C HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail S. Ponomaryev 11 (2) - HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Dmitri A. Samoylov 10 (4) 3 F-86s, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Pavel S. Milaushkin 10 (2) 1 F-86, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Dmitri P. Oskin 9 (2) 2 B-29s on Oct 23 '51 HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail I. Mihin 9 (3) all F-86E/Fs - 518 IAP, 216 IAD
Aleksandr P. Smorchkov 8 (4) 3 B-29s on October 1951 HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Grigorii I. Pulov 8 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 RF-80A HSU CO of 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Serafim P. Subbotin 8 (4) 2 F-86s, 1 B-29, 1 Meteor HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Semen A. Fedorets 8 (5) shot down by Joseph McConnell April 12 '53 LO 913 IAP, 32 IAD
V. N. Alfeyev 7 (2) on May 20 1951 shot-up the F-86A of James Jabara RB 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Fiodor A. Shebanov 6 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, KIA Oct '51 HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii I. Ges 6 (3) 1 B-29A, 1 B-26B, 1 F-51D HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Anatoly M. Karelin 6 (5) all B-29s at night HSU 351 IAP
Arkadii S. Boitsov 6 (3) 2 F-86s, 1 F-80 conf. by USAF - 16 IAP, 97 IAD
Nikolai I. Ivanov 6 (4) 3 F-86Es, 1 RF-86A LO 726 IAP, 133 IAD
Nikolai M. Zameskin 6 (2) 2 F-86E/F HSU 878 IAP, 216 IAD
Boris S. Abakumov 5 (3) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, 1 Phanter HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii N. Berelidze 5 (3) shot down Harold Fischer on April 7 1953 RB 224 IAP, 32 IAD

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...5PDfCQ&usg=AFQjCNG1dECpcLc2AL7e7w6XvvxvWUMZfg

Here's more.


•April 8th, 1950 A US Navy PB4Y-2 Privateer was shot down by 23mm cannon fire from a pair of Soviet Lavochkin La-11 fighters over the Baltic Sea near what is now Latvia. The ten man crew was presumed dead and has not been found. In 1993 retired Soviet General Fyodor Shinkarenko stated that he believed the wreckage was secretly salvaged and sent to Moscow.
•December 4th 1950 A USAF RB-45C Tornado was shot down by 23mm cannon fire cannon fire from Soviet Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG) 15’s over China near the North Korean border. Two of the four crewmen died in the attack. The remaining two bailed out across the North Korean border and were captured. One was killed during interrogation and the second was hung.
•December 26th, 1950 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress (converted from atom bomb dropper to photographic reconnaissance aircraft) was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan.
•November 6th, 1951 A US Navy P2V-3 Neptune was shot down near Vladivostok by two Soviet La-11 fighters. The ten men crew was presumed dead.
•June 13, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters over the Sea of Japan. The American recon aircraft was intercepted nine miles off the coast and quickly destroyed. The 12-man crew was presumed dead however unconfirmed reports surfaced that one had survived long enough to be picked up by a Soviet ship in the area. Who this crewman was and his ultimate fate is unknown.
•October 7, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by machine gun fire from Soviet La-11 fighters over the Kurile Islands. The eight man crew was all presumed dead. In 1994 the remains of one of the crewmen, Captain John R Dunham was located and returned to the US after former Soviet documents related that a crewman had been found and was buried on nearby Yuri Island. Former Soviet KGB Maritime Border Guards sailor Vasili Saiko came forward in 1993 and gave the US Naval Academy a ring that he took from Captain Dunham's body in 1952. The ring was eventually given to Captain Dunham’s widow.
•July 29th, 1953 A USAF RB-50G Superfortress was shot down near Vladivostok by cannon fire from two MiG-17s. A single survivor of the 18-man crew was pulled from the sea by a destroyer. A week later the remains of two more of the crew washed up in the coast of Japan. Conflicting reports after the Cold War by former Soviet military personnel who were present at the event seem to indicate that others may have survived in Soviet custody but are unaccounted for.
•September 4th, 1954 A US Navy P2V-5 flying from Atsugi Japan was shot down over water by cannon fire from two MiG-15s off the coast of Siberia. The pilot ditched in international waters and was rescued with the loss of one crewman.
•November 7th 1954 USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters near northern Japan. Ten of the eleven-man crew was rescued while one unlucky crewman drowned.
•April 17th 1955 USAF RB-47E was shot down by a cannon fire from a pair of MiG-15s near Kamchatka off the Siberian coast. The three-man crew was presumed killed.
•June 22nd, 1955 US Navy P2V-5 Neptune flying over the Bearing Strait in international waters was jumped by two Soviet MiG-15s. The pilots managed to crash land the stricken plane on US territory and the crew survived although most were injured.
•Christmas Eve 1957 A USAF RB-57 was shot down over the Black Sea by Soviet fighters and its crew all died.
•June27 1958 USAF C-118 Liftmaster transport (military version of a Douglas DC-6) reportedly used by the CIA at one time was shot down by rocket and cannon fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The aircraft was destroyed but the crews parachuted to safety and were given back by the Soviets a week later.
•September 2nd, 1958 USAF C-130A Hercules transport modified for signals intelligence was shot down by cannon and rocket fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The entire crew died. Six of the bodies were given back by the Soviets that year and the remaining 11 were recovered by the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission on POWs/ MIAs in 1998.
•May 1st 1960 CIA owned U-2 spy plane flown by Gary Powers a "sheep-dipped" Air Force officer flying as a civilian from a base in Pakistan was shot down by a lucky hit from one of at least 14 SA-2 surface to air missiles ripple fired at it over Sverdlosk (formerly called Yekaterinburg back in 1918 when the Tsar was killed there) in about the most absolute center of the Soviet Union. Powers was captured and embarrassingly placed on public trail before going home in 1962
•July 1st 1960, USAF RB-47H Stratojet flying over the Barents Sea was shot down by 30mm cannon fire from a Soviet MiG-19. Four crewmembers were killed and two were captured and held for six months by the KGB.
•October 27 1962 USAF U-2 of the 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing shot down by another magic BB SA-2 Guideline surface to air missile over Cuba from a Soviet manned battery. The pilot was posthumously awarded the Air Force Cross.
•January 24, 1964 USAF T-39 Sabreliner flying from West Germany on a training mission crossed over East German airspace and was downed by a Soviet MiG-21, killing all three aboard.
•March 10, 1964 USAF RB-66 Destroyer was shot down over East Germany by a Soviet MiG-21 on a flight from West Berlin when it crossed out of authorized airspace over East German airspace. The crew was rescued and repatriated.
•October 21, 1970 US Army RU-8 Seminole flying from Turkey (military variant of a Beech craft twin engine) lost over Soviet Armenia


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jKy8Cw&usg=AFQjCNHE7EW9P6rf9mEGiPKDEYOotSnnsw

I couldn't find US air-to-air losses over Vietnam; however,the US lost a total of 2,251. This is not counting Australian and other allied aircraft losses.


PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes [ flying Soviet aircraft, and suffering 0 losses]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...m5DLCA&usg=AFQjCNFA-e-lUfBs-AaD-h_5-SNeI4A0ng


Egyptians to ask the Soviet Union for help. In June 1970, Soviet pilots and SAM crews arrived with their equipment. On 22 June 1970, a Soviet pilot flying a MiG-21MF shot down an Israeli A-4E. After some more successful intercepts by Soviet pilots and another Israeli A-4 being shot down on July 25

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...ztWyDw&usg=AFQjCNGV4Ib6eJJeKF5_XaaWwRk7HtNfhQ

Brag all you want about the poorly trained and obsolete Iraqi airforce, but Russian and Pakistani pilots proved they can swat US aircraft like flys.

Your right, in the interest of saving time I did copy the list. But I also checked it's facts out. And I never claimed to take credit for drawing it up. I did fail in providing links. As I do sometimes with news articles as well. Anyone however that wanted to verify the kills could do so as I expected they would.

as far as your own list. I couldn't fail to notice that all your kill scores are 1970 and before. and most of them from the Korean war. there is no doubt the MIG-15 was a game changer in Korea and forced the U.S. to speed up Jet developments to counter it. It has been an ongoing process since. Did you know that after the F-86 was deployed the Kill ratio went up to 10:1 in the F-86's favor? also most of your vietnam numbers (2,251) are SAM kills, ground artillery and mechanical reasons not Pilot v Pilot. Vietnam is the first war were SAM's really came into play and showed the U.S. it needed to learn to counter them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Aerial_warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_losses_of_the_Vietnam_War

I was merely showing that 5stars original statement "The U.S's weapon has never shown anyone that it is better than the Russian's ones" was not true. a classic example of that is the F-15 and it's kill record with zero losses.

If I fail in the future to provide a link please continue call me on it.........

 

[ptldM3]

Your right, in the interest of saving time I did copy the list. But I also checked it's facts out. And I never claimed to take credit for drawing it up. I did fail in providing links. As I do sometimes with news articles as well. Anyone however that wanted to verify the kills could do so as I expected they would.

as far as your own list. I couldn't fail to notice that all your kill scores are 1970 and before. and most of them from the Korean war. there is no doubt the MIG-15/17 was a game changer in Korea and forced the U.S. to speed up Jet developments to counter it. It has been an ongoing process since. also most of your vietnam numbers are SAM kills not Pilot v Pilot.

I was merely showing that 5stars original statement "The U.S's weapon has never shown anyone that it is better than the Russian's ones" was not true. a classic example of that is the F-15 and it's kill record with zero losses.

That's fine but next time post the link, it only takes a few seconds. I corrected my original post so it would be less provocative and easier to read, you quoted my old post. These pak-fa thread are getting annoying, the pak-fa is just a prototype and i really do wish people would stop comparing it to the F-22 because as of now it's just a prototype.

People from both sides need to know their limits because these threads turn into shouting matches. If i upset certain people it was not my intension.

 

[marcos98]

guys not p.s.....




picture was taken 13 feb

 

[chantpapipart2]

guys not p.s.....




picture was taken 13 feb

Thanks buddy...


What a beauty......

 

[ViXuyen]

Thomas- you copied and pasted your list from a forum , neither you or the original poster had a link to varify the claims. Next time don't plagiarize. AKA take credit for someones elses work,

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...svC8Cw&usg=AFQjCNFkcPPp25PZVXNt1AanS1frfVvEMg



Yes we did, and bold parts represent Russian kills. (Korea)

Top Russian Aces Kills (*) Comments Medal (**) Unit
Nikolai V. Sutyagin 21 (12) 9 F-86s, 1 F-84, 1 Meteor. Shot-up Glenn Eagleston HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev 19 (12) shot down F-86A #49-1319, brought to USSR HSU CO of 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Lev Kirilovich Shchukin 17 (10) shot-up the F-86E of Francis Gabreski, downed 2 times HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Sergei M. Kramarenko 13 (7) shot down 5 F-86s, 1 F-84 and 1 Meteor, downed once HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Ivan V. Suchkov 12 (2) 2 B-29s HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Stepan A. Bahayev 11 (5) - HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Konstantin N. Sheberstov 11 (2) 1 B-29A, 1 F-86A HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii U. Ohay 11 (3) 2 Meteors, 1 F-80C HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail S. Ponomaryev 11 (2) - HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Dmitri A. Samoylov 10 (4) 3 F-86s, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Pavel S. Milaushkin 10 (2) 1 F-86, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Dmitri P. Oskin 9 (2) 2 B-29s on Oct 23 '51 HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail I. Mihin 9 (3) all F-86E/Fs - 518 IAP, 216 IAD
Aleksandr P. Smorchkov 8 (4) 3 B-29s on October 1951 HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Grigorii I. Pulov 8 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 RF-80A HSU CO of 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Serafim P. Subbotin 8 (4) 2 F-86s, 1 B-29, 1 Meteor HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Semen A. Fedorets 8 (5) shot down by Joseph McConnell April 12 '53 LO 913 IAP, 32 IAD
V. N. Alfeyev 7 (2) on May 20 1951 shot-up the F-86A of James Jabara RB 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Fiodor A. Shebanov 6 (2) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, KIA Oct '51 HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii I. Ges 6 (3) 1 B-29A, 1 B-26B, 1 F-51D HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Anatoly M. Karelin 6 (5) all B-29s at night HSU 351 IAP
Arkadii S. Boitsov 6 (3) 2 F-86s, 1 F-80 conf. by USAF - 16 IAP, 97 IAD
Nikolai I. Ivanov 6 (4) 3 F-86Es, 1 RF-86A LO 726 IAP, 133 IAD
Nikolai M. Zameskin 6 (2) 2 F-86E/F HSU 878 IAP, 216 IAD
Boris S. Abakumov 5 (3) 1 F-86A, 1 B-29A, 1 Phanter HSU 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii N. Berelidze 5 (3) shot down Harold Fischer on April 7 1953 RB 224 IAP, 32 IAD

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...5PDfCQ&usg=AFQjCNG1dECpcLc2AL7e7w6XvvxvWUMZfg

Here's more.


•April 8th, 1950 A US Navy PB4Y-2 Privateer was shot down by 23mm cannon fire from a pair of Soviet Lavochkin La-11 fighters over the Baltic Sea near what is now Latvia. The ten man crew was presumed dead and has not been found. In 1993 retired Soviet General Fyodor Shinkarenko stated that he believed the wreckage was secretly salvaged and sent to Moscow.
•December 4th 1950 A USAF RB-45C Tornado was shot down by 23mm cannon fire cannon fire from Soviet Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG) 15’s over China near the North Korean border. Two of the four crewmen died in the attack. The remaining two bailed out across the North Korean border and were captured. One was killed during interrogation and the second was hung.
•December 26th, 1950 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress (converted from atom bomb dropper to photographic reconnaissance aircraft) was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan.
•November 6th, 1951 A US Navy P2V-3 Neptune was shot down near Vladivostok by two Soviet La-11 fighters. The ten men crew was presumed dead.
•June 13, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters over the Sea of Japan. The American recon aircraft was intercepted nine miles off the coast and quickly destroyed. The 12-man crew was presumed dead however unconfirmed reports surfaced that one had survived long enough to be picked up by a Soviet ship in the area. Who this crewman was and his ultimate fate is unknown.
•October 7, 1952 A USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by machine gun fire from Soviet La-11 fighters over the Kurile Islands. The eight man crew was all presumed dead. In 1994 the remains of one of the crewmen, Captain John R Dunham was located and returned to the US after former Soviet documents related that a crewman had been found and was buried on nearby Yuri Island. Former Soviet KGB Maritime Border Guards sailor Vasili Saiko came forward in 1993 and gave the US Naval Academy a ring that he took from Captain Dunham's body in 1952. The ring was eventually given to Captain Dunham’s widow.
•July 29th, 1953 A USAF RB-50G Superfortress was shot down near Vladivostok by cannon fire from two MiG-17s. A single survivor of the 18-man crew was pulled from the sea by a destroyer. A week later the remains of two more of the crew washed up in the coast of Japan. Conflicting reports after the Cold War by former Soviet military personnel who were present at the event seem to indicate that others may have survived in Soviet custody but are unaccounted for.
•September 4th, 1954 A US Navy P2V-5 flying from Atsugi Japan was shot down over water by cannon fire from two MiG-15s off the coast of Siberia. The pilot ditched in international waters and was rescued with the loss of one crewman.
•November 7th 1954 USAF RB-29 Superfortress was shot down by cannon fire from two MiG-15 fighters near northern Japan. Ten of the eleven-man crew was rescued while one unlucky crewman drowned.
•April 17th 1955 USAF RB-47E was shot down by a cannon fire from a pair of MiG-15s near Kamchatka off the Siberian coast. The three-man crew was presumed killed.
•June 22nd, 1955 US Navy P2V-5 Neptune flying over the Bearing Strait in international waters was jumped by two Soviet MiG-15s. The pilots managed to crash land the stricken plane on US territory and the crew survived although most were injured.
•Christmas Eve 1957 A USAF RB-57 was shot down over the Black Sea by Soviet fighters and its crew all died.
•June27 1958 USAF C-118 Liftmaster transport (military version of a Douglas DC-6) reportedly used by the CIA at one time was shot down by rocket and cannon fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The aircraft was destroyed but the crews parachuted to safety and were given back by the Soviets a week later.
•September 2nd, 1958 USAF C-130A Hercules transport modified for signals intelligence was shot down by cannon and rocket fire from two MiG-17s over Soviet Armenia. The entire crew died. Six of the bodies were given back by the Soviets that year and the remaining 11 were recovered by the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission on POWs/ MIAs in 1998.
•May 1st 1960 CIA owned U-2 spy plane flown by Gary Powers a "sheep-dipped" Air Force officer flying as a civilian from a base in Pakistan was shot down by a lucky hit from one of at least 14 SA-2 surface to air missiles ripple fired at it over Sverdlosk (formerly called Yekaterinburg back in 1918 when the Tsar was killed there) in about the most absolute center of the Soviet Union. Powers was captured and embarrassingly placed on public trail before going home in 1962
•July 1st 1960, USAF RB-47H Stratojet flying over the Barents Sea was shot down by 30mm cannon fire from a Soviet MiG-19. Four crewmembers were killed and two were captured and held for six months by the KGB.
•October 27 1962 USAF U-2 of the 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing shot down by another magic BB SA-2 Guideline surface to air missile over Cuba from a Soviet manned battery. The pilot was posthumously awarded the Air Force Cross.
•January 24, 1964 USAF T-39 Sabreliner flying from West Germany on a training mission crossed over East German airspace and was downed by a Soviet MiG-21, killing all three aboard.
•March 10, 1964 USAF RB-66 Destroyer was shot down over East Germany by a Soviet MiG-21 on a flight from West Berlin when it crossed out of authorized airspace over East German airspace. The crew was rescued and repatriated.
•October 21, 1970 US Army RU-8 Seminole flying from Turkey (military variant of a Beech craft twin engine) lost over Soviet Armenia


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jKy8Cw&usg=AFQjCNHE7EW9P6rf9mEGiPKDEYOotSnnsw

Thomas looks like you forgot Vietnam.

I couldn't find US air-to-air losses over Vietnam; however,the US lost a total of 2,251. This is not counting Australian and other allied aircraft losses.

The Arabs, Koreans, and Chinese gave Soviet aircraft a bad name; however, if you look at the combat record of Soviet aircraft in the hands of capable pilots then everything changes. Here is some examples, and of course don't forget the Soviet pilots over Korea.

PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes [ flying Soviet aircraft, and suffering 0 losses]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...m5DLCA&usg=AFQjCNFA-e-lUfBs-AaD-h_5-SNeI4A0ng


Egyptians to ask the Soviet Union for help. In June 1970, Soviet pilots and SAM crews arrived with their equipment. On 22 June 1970, a Soviet pilot flying a MiG-21MF shot down an Israeli A-4E. After some more successful intercepts by Soviet pilots and another Israeli A-4 being shot down on July 25

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...ztWyDw&usg=AFQjCNGV4Ib6eJJeKF5_XaaWwRk7HtNfhQ

There is also the India/Pakistani air wars but the kills vary from both side.

North Vietnam fired a total of no more than 6000 out dated SA-2 (not SA-3) to achieve these kills. Consider a SAM only cost a few buck in compared to multi million dollar u.s aircrafts, this clearly show how effective Russian weapons are despite a a cost of a fraction of the U.S

 

[gambit]

North Vietnam fired a total of no more than 6000 out dated SA-2 (not SA-3) to achieve these kills. Consider a SAM only cost a few buck in compared to multi million dollar u.s aircrafts, this clearly show how effective Russian weapons are despite a a cost of a fraction of the U.S

I am certain that the military leadership of your country of origin is not as shortsighted as you have shown. In the modern history of warfare, particularly with the advent of missiles in WW II, no wars have been won by being on the defensive. Surface to air missiles are defensive weapons. How much do you think it cost the NVA in rebuilding its resources and manpower?

 

[ViXuyen]

I am certain that the military leadership of your country of origin is not as shortsighted as you have shown. In the modern history of warfare, particularly with the advent of missiles in WW II, no wars have been won by being on the defensive. Surface to air missiles are defensive weapons. How much do you think it cost the NVA in rebuilding its resources and manpower?

How much? Not much. Everyone knows that North Viet Nam (and South Vietnam too) was such a poor agarian country with practically nothing to lose. Life was pretty cheap back then for both North or South Vietnamese

My country of origin is also your country of origin, unless you don't consider it as your country