Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[rockstarIN]

and what do you mean by "T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours" this? are they inferior to us in designing aircraft or their requirement is inferior, their own requirement can be different from ours but not inferior.




I think you wanted to say that single seat version doesn't fit our operational requirement,
Let me tell you one thing which you might know or not, you know why IAF chose two seat version of Su-30 series aircraft? because our requirement was more in terms of avionics, advanced sensors in short electronic equipments, it was increased to such level that it was difficult for single man to handle it and at that time processors were not advanced enough to process every thing on their own so two seat version was preferred + for long range missions two seat version is more effective. But we payed price for that in terms of increase in weight of aircraft, aerodynamic characteristics of aircraft reduced (canard and thrust vectoring engine was added to overcome them and increase maneuverability), operational range decreased and also maximum speed too as compared to basic version of Su-30.

But this will not be the case with PAK-FA, their processor will be powerful enough to process major data on their own thus minimizing the need for second person. We are developing FGFA version just for two reasons:
1. To gain technical experience.
2. For long range missions.

India will be inducting customized PAK-FA in more numbers than FGFA and I don't need to prove it, you will see it in future.

Going by your logic only, Indian variant of PAKFA should have 2 guys in it.

As per our specification we need 360 degree radar coverage, very high bore-sight weapons etc and it is a heavy fighter jet after all for long range missions.

Russian sensor fusion tech.. is not as advanced than west..so better to go with 2 man inside.

Since

Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there Sergi claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.

I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong

Russian-Indian work on 5G fighter to go ahead without extra deal | Defense | RIA Novosti

Russian aircraft holding Sukhoi has no plans to sign additional agreements creating a joint venture with its Indian partners in the production of a fifth-generation fighter, the general director said on Friday.

Russian Sukhoi holding and Indian Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet.

Sukhoi head Mikhail Pogosyan had said that an additional agreement would be signed specifying the Indian role in the project, but on Friday he said that the Russian company hoped work would begin soon without any such deal.

"We don't plan to sign a joint venture. We have agreed on joint work with our Indian colleagues," Pogosyan said.

He said the joint work could be carried out under the current agreement.

"We will do our part of the work, our Indian counterparts theirs," Pogosyan said. "At the initial stage it is not necessary to have a joint venture."

Earlier, HAL was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.

PARIS, June 11 (RIA Novosti)

 

[sancho]

Where had I written that we have technical contribution in PAK-FA project apart from some composite materials?

Exactly in the part of the composite materials, because Pak Fa has no Indian composites included! Our funding was needed to keep the whole development going on, since Russia alone can't pay for it. So they are dependend on our money, just as we are on their technical knowhow and experience and why we try to get any ToT and input we can get, while they try to get bit of more money from us (offer to co-develop NG engine, offer to co-develop naval version). It's a give and take, but as long as both partners benefits at the end it's good.

and what do you mean by "T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours" this?

See post #835

But this will not be the case with PAK-FA, their processor will be powerful enough to process major data on their own thus minimizing the need for second person.

You explanation about why we went to Su 30 is fully correct and the same reasons are even more important for FGFA! Once because the ammount of informations and actions the pilot has to deal with will increase, not get lower. FGFA will have more sensors (active and passive), more capabilities, more roles to play, but will be used in the same long range/long endurance roles as the Su 30s. That's why the 2nd pilot was the prefered choice for IAF again, or the French gets more twin seat Rafale than single seat with their increased sensor capabilities, or why Israel and other F35 operators asked for a twin seater F35 version as the prefered version too.

 

[sancho]

If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong

Basically you can compare this development project with the JF 17. India and Pakistan are minor partners in terms of contribution to these projects, but equal in terms of licences and rights, that's why both of our countries would benefit from exports of these fighters too. Also similar is, that PAF gets a customised version according to it's requirements (indigenous avionics, some other weapons), while China might use a fully Chinese version and the same goes for Pak Fa / FGFA.

 

[Black Widow]

Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there Sergi claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.

I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong

I don't know in what context Sergi told it, He is a respectable member in PDF, Better he reply to your query. But if yo throw the same question to me, My answer will be

Yes you are right, FGFA is tailor made for India, We all know India has no capability to match Russian design bureau, We have shared the development cost, Our Engineers are there, May be they are learning. May be they are giving some Ideas, we don't know.

Your second point is also right, Russia can sell it to any country (except which hurt India). No Indian permission is needed. FGFA is not like Brahmos (where INdian contribution is major) neither its like MiG29K (where our contribution is NULL). Its like MKI (Slightly more than that coz we are co-funding projects and we are partner from beginning.)


India can gain the knowledge, which we can put into AMCA... (Icing on the cake)

 

[Sergi]

Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there Sergi claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.

I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong

Please show me where I claim India's contribution ??? I was under impression that IAF will go for PAK-FA too. That's it.
If you get it wrong let me put it again.
PAK-FA project is funded by India and Russia 50/50.
As far as we know right now is Russia go for PAK-FA only and INDIA go for FAGA based on PAK-FA.
Only contribution India is doing in the project right now is Funding. Nothing else

All I want to say to you in that particular post was if India funded project Russia might not go against Indian interests.

I don't know in what context Sergi told it, He is a respectable member in PDF, Better he reply to your query. But if yo throw the same question to me, My answer will be

Yes you are right, FGFA is tailor made for India, We all know India has no capability to match Russian design bureau, We have shared the development cost, Our Engineers are there, May be they are learning. May be they are giving some Ideas, we don't know.

Your second point is also right, Russia can sell it to any country (except which hurt India). No Indian permission is needed. FGFA is not like Brahmos (where INdian contribution is major) neither its like MiG29K (where our contribution is NULL). Its like MKI (Slightly more than that coz we are co-funding projects and we are partner from beginning.)


India can gain the knowledge, which we can put into AMCA... (Icing on the cake)

I wasn't claming anything. I was asking as I was bit confused. That's it.

 

[Sergi]

Poor reading dude

The agreement, which was signed at the seventh meeting of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical



co-operation in Moscow, provides for joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA is known for its super-maneuverability, supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defense capabilities. It is described as a rival to the US F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter.

The deal on joint production comes almost five years after the Russians first proposed it.

India and Russia will have equal financial and technological stakes in the US$10 billion project. "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion," Sukhoi director-general Mikhail Pogosyan said. The Indian version of the FGFA would be different from the Russian version because of specific Indian requirements, he said.

I think I was right in post #840
FGFA is Indian name for twin seater PAK-FA. BTW IAF is going to get both

@danger-zone: if you are reffering this post. I recommend you read it again and also read the last line of the post.

Again all I have to say is T-50 is a prototype for PAK-FA. India is funding it's development and learning from it. It's all Russian. Outcome will be PAK-FA. That outcome will be used to make FGFA. So it's it logical that Russia won't export PAK-FA against Indian interests.
And where I CLAIM contribution here I just point out your quote in post #821

 

[Arzamas 16]

Exactly in the part of the composite materials, because Pak Fa has no Indian composites included! Our funding was needed to keep the whole development going on, since Russia alone can't pay for it. So they are dependend on our money, just as we are on their technical knowhow and experience and why we try to get any ToT and input we can get, while they try to get bit of more money from us (offer to co-develop NG engine, offer to co-develop naval version). It's a give and take, but as long as both partners benefits at the end it's good

The Bulava program is the most expensive weapons project in Russia

RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone, PAK DA Stealth bomber program a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.

 

[Black Widow]

RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone,PAK DA Stealth bomber program a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.

Don't take it on ego, we know russia can, but what's problem if india can share half cost? its like win win situation. happy day for russia happy day for india.



@ sergi: thanks for clearing your views, hope fellow member get your view. I would like to add something. I personally know that indian engineers are there in sukhoi design beuroe, what i don't know is whether they are working or learning. or learning through work? hope some one can clear it.

 

[sancho]

RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone, PAK DA Stealth bomber program a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.

It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.

However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.

 

[MehrotraPrince]

It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.

However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.

Yes, it is the same reason why projects like Su-47 and Mig 1.44 which started around early 1980's (same time as F-22) never matured to production level and just stopped as a technology demonstrator, at that time Russia was neck to neck with USA.

This economic crisis forced Russian government to take some drastic steps in order to save their aircraft industries. They started exporting latest high-tech equipments to other countries, Russian Knights started aerobatic demonstration in airshows so as to maintain their flying skills, to maintain minimum flying hours and gain some monetary benefits. Even foreigners were allowed to have joy ride in their Mig's and Sukhoi's for $ 15000. Programs like Su-27 M and Mig-29 M was stopped for some time and was later revived when India showed interest and provided funding.

But time has started to change and now they are funding many of their projects on their own, one such example is PAK-DA.

 

[Arzamas 16]

It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.

However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.

Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah nice logic their ace.


Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion

Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion


You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.


The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.

 

[Black Widow]

Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion

Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion

Can you give the figure after Adjusting Inflation??? Bcoz 1.8 trillion in 1989 is not equals to 1.8 trillion in 2011...

 

[Sergi]

Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah nice logic their ace.


Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion

Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion


You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.


The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.

hahaah you are taking it too much personal
Ok. We agree Russia has money and technology ( BTW there is a term BASE YEAR in economics give it a try )
So what's your point ??? Russia has money and tech then why T-50 was in prototype only ??? Developing PAK-FA on own and then selling it to India would have been more profitable why JV ???
Russia has alot of Projects which are lacking findings. Even if Russia have 2 trillion Russia can't invest out of proportion in Defence research. That what Soviat Union did and break apart. A nation has other need too. And Govt have to look in to them as well.

Let me be clear, even though Russia has money it's not possible to run all projects on its own.
Look at the figures you given 700 Billions in 8 years ie 87/88 billions per year only.
Now calculate the regular requirements and expenditure of all armed forces + modernisation.
And now tell me what's the amount available per year for Defence reasearch programmes.
Sharing cost is economical and the incoming funds can speed up projects.

 

[sancho]

Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years

As I said, it might be hard to take, but I am talking about the current reality and the situation of the last few years when Pak Fa development was started. And the military spending for modernisation is actually not that much, when you keep in mind how big Russian forces are and how badly older aircrafts, vessels and vehicles needs upgrades or replacements. I could give you even more examples, but lets simply leave it at that.

 

[Dash]

Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah nice logic their ace.


Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion

Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion


You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.


The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.

Brother, please do not get personal here. To be honest India has learnt and received a lot from Russia and as we speak now, the status quo hasnt changed much. We dont have knowledge but you hence we try to partner with yous wherever we think its necessary.

But the fact is that you wanted a partner in PAKFA project and India was approached to share the developemental cost but we rejected it and thats when you went ahead and froze the final design. You approached us again and we agreed to go with it.

Whatever may be the reason for you to look for a partner in PAKFA, but the fact is that you approached us and thats what my fellow Indian brothers are pointing out here and We are not saying that you are incapable of developing anything on your own.