SU-30's Cobra Maneuvers - A Treat for PAF Shaheen

[Windjammer]

Albeit a bit dated but nonetheless interesting read on the plus and minuses of the IAF's SU-30.

@notorious_eagle @Oscar @Luftwaffe @ANTIBODY

SU-30's Cobra Maneuvers - A Treat for PAF Shaheen


By: Qasim Al-Yaldram

The disparity between the IAF and PAF has always been in numbers , since there inceptions. But the technological edge, as most people know, have always been PAF Shaheen's school of specialism. In 1965, PAF fighter pilot was interviewed upon which he said "They are falling like birds." For detail view click the following Pakistan Air Force Pilots of 1965 War -.

That was the state of readiness our PAF has ever been since.

India has been trying hard to cover the vacuum that PAF Shaheen legacy makers left. And to some extent they have been quite successful in acquiring the Mirage2000s (French) and recently Russian state of the art roll out SU-30 MKI. The aircraft has impressed many airforces around the globe including, Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, China and India in particular. Recently, Indian Airforce has been able to couple SU-30MKI aircrafts with there own indigenously developed and Israeli acquired avionics, making it a lethal fighter plane then ever before.

However, the game is not over yet!!! The will to remain intact in the war, only decides a 'Victor'. SU-30MKI is equipped with some most advance Actice ESA RADAR system Phazotron, which can track upto 15 air targets including cruise missiles and helicopters. SU-30MKI can perform complex air combat maneuvers like Pugachev's Cobra, Cobra Turns and Kulbits. And above all, the best part of the parcel is, SU-30MKI has Thrust Vectoring capability which may seem, flawless.

Even said and agreed with the technological beauty of this plane. Yet, war is not all about technology and numerical disparity. It is the way how good, one can exploit the weakness of its adversary. SU-30MKI was designed for air superiority missions including air interception and ground attack capabilities. Its air maneuverability is improved by installing canards in the front. Yet it remains a heavy plane when in the air. Thrust vector may sound amazing, but the fact is, the true potential of thrust vectoring capability during a dogfight still remain a question of doubt as of today.

The thrust vectoring in SU-30MKI forms an introverted V shaped thrust, which does not pitch the aircraft as needed, in certain air combat maneuvers e.g. doing scissor. And very unlike in F-22 Raptor which has two dimensional pitched thrust. Therefore, when the thrust vectoring is implied, it creates massive drag for such iron mass in the air, consequently, SU-30MKI is unable to sustain its height instead, it starts sinking down. And before, SU-30MKI has completed its Cobra maneuver, the pilot may be looking for ejection button, as dozen of bullets have already been drilled in to its plane by an adversary.

SU-30MKI aircraft implies two Saturn Al-31FP turbofans, which gives good thrust to the aircraft. Yet, the quality of these engines due to Russian origin still remain highly susceptible as compare to RD-93(Advance version of Russian RD-33), Pratt & Whitney or even Rolls Royce. In case of any disruption of the engines, Indians Airforce has no other choice but to send the engines back to Russia to be fixed, rather repairing them at home.

The ability of any aircraft, is exhibited as soon as it can be airborne in real time situation. SU-3MKI needs one minute spacing to take-off. Where as PAF Shaheen has been able to reduce the airborne time of A-5 aircrafts to less then one minute, which are considered to be oldest aircrafts serving today. One minute spacing means, a window of time span for PAF Shaheen to attack and destroy the rest of the SU-30MKI planes getting ready for taxi.

Last but not the least, the man behind the weapon really matters. In some of the recent air exercises held by Indian and US Airforces together like Red Flag 2008. It was found that pilots of SU-30MKIs had less then 100 flying hours, altogether. Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war. However, its not far when SU-30MKI pilots would enhance there flying hours, excavate the true potential of this aircraft and use it for there advantage.

The world is undergoing global force-repositioning phase, where every strong nation is getting ready for offensive. It is imperative that air war doctorine of PAF Shaheen should be revised and should put on offensive footing rather then ground support and air interception missions. PAF Shaheen are second to none even now. But much more work has yet to be done by fast forwarding the JF-17 induction and J-10 procurements. PAF Shaheen has to re-establish there objectivity in terms of Pakistan's vision of calling itself "FORT OF ISLAM". PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

 

[Thirdfront]

Albeit a bit dated but nonetheless interesting read on the plus and minuses of the IAF's SU-30.

@notorious_eagle @Oscar @Luftwaffe @ANTIBODY

SU-30's Cobra Maneuvers - A Treat for PAF Shaheen


By: Qasim Al-Yaldram

The disparity between the IAF and PAF has always been in numbers , since there inceptions. But the technological edge, as most people know, have always been PAF Shaheen's school of specialism. In 1965, PAF fighter pilot was interviewed upon which he said "They are falling like birds." For detail view click the following Pakistan Air Force Pilots of 1965 War -.

That was the state of readiness our PAF has ever been since.

India has been trying hard to cover the vacuum that PAF Shaheen legacy makers left. And to some extent they have been quite successful in acquiring the Mirage2000s (French) and recently Russian state of the art roll out SU-30 MKI. The aircraft has impressed many airforces around the globe including, Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, China and India in particular. Recently, Indian Airforce has been able to couple SU-30MKI aircrafts with there own indigenously developed and Israeli acquired avionics, making it a lethal fighter plane then ever before.

However, the game is not over yet!!! The will to remain intact in the war, only decides a 'Victor'. SU-30MKI is equipped with some most advance Actice ESA RADAR system Phazotron, which can track upto 15 air targets including cruise missiles and helicopters. SU-30MKI can perform complex air combat maneuvers like Pugachev's Cobra, Cobra Turns and Kulbits. And above all, the best part of the parcel is, SU-30MKI has Thrust Vectoring capability which may seem, flawless.

Even said and agreed with the technological beauty of this plane. Yet, war is not all about technology and numerical disparity. It is the way how good, one can exploit the weakness of its adversary. SU-30MKI was designed for air superiority missions including air interception and ground attack capabilities. Its air maneuverability is improved by installing canards in the front. Yet it remains a heavy plane when in the air. Thrust vector may sound amazing, but the fact is, the true potential of thrust vectoring capability during a dogfight still remain a question of doubt as of today.

The thrust vectoring in SU-30MKI forms an introverted V shaped thrust, which does not pitch the aircraft as needed, in certain air combat maneuvers e.g. doing scissor. And very unlike in F-22 Raptor which has two dimensional pitched thrust. Therefore, when the thrust vectoring is implied, it creates massive drag for such iron mass in the air, consequently, SU-30MKI is unable to sustain its height instead, it starts sinking down. And before, SU-30MKI has completed its Cobra maneuver, the pilot may be looking for ejection button, as dozen of bullets have already been drilled in to its plane by an adversary.

SU-30MKI aircraft implies two Saturn Al-31FP turbofans, which gives good thrust to the aircraft. Yet, the quality of these engines due to Russian origin still remain highly susceptible as compare to RD-93(Advance version of Russian RD-33), Pratt & Whitney or even Rolls Royce. In case of any disruption of the engines, Indians Airforce has no other choice but to send the engines back to Russia to be fixed, rather repairing them at home.

The ability of any aircraft, is exhibited as soon as it can be airborne in real time situation. SU-3MKI needs one minute spacing to take-off. Where as PAF Shaheen has been able to reduce the airborne time of A-5 aircrafts to less then one minute, which are considered to be oldest aircrafts serving today. One minute spacing means, a window of time span for PAF Shaheen to attack and destroy the rest of the SU-30MKI planes getting ready for taxi.

Last but not the least, the man behind the weapon really matters. In some of the recent air exercises held by Indian and US Airforces together like Red Flag 2008. It was found that pilots of SU-30MKIs had less then 100 flying hours, altogether. Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war. However, its not far when SU-30MKI pilots would enhance there flying hours, excavate the true potential of this aircraft and use it for there advantage.

The world is undergoing global force-repositioning phase, where every strong nation is getting ready for offensive. It is imperative that air war doctorine of PAF Shaheen should be revised and should put on offensive footing rather then ground support and air interception missions. PAF Shaheen are second to none even now. But much more work has yet to be done by fast forwarding the JF-17 induction and J-10 procurements. PAF Shaheen has to re-establish there objectivity in terms of Pakistan's vision of calling itself "FORT OF ISLAM". PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

LMAO..... "falling like birds"...oh yeah, and IA tanks were standing like cheeta.... guns silent like thunder...

On topic: Looks like author was heavily "inspired" by the USAF officer whose video was widely debated. No substance in it at all. I have myself seen SU-30MKI doing cobra and recovering without breaking a sweat....
On other note, the chronology of PAF narration is something like this - Superior technology over number --> Superior Tech plus better training over number --> Technology and number are not the only thing.

 

[Roybot]

A 2008 blog post??

Latest is that PAF doesn't have the moolah to buy J-10s

 

[Bratva]

Albeit a bit dated but nonetheless interesting read on the plus and minuses of the IAF's SU-30.

@notorious_eagle @Oscar @Luftwaffe @ANTIBODY

SU-30's Cobra Maneuvers - A Treat for PAF Shaheen


By: Qasim Al-Yaldram

The disparity between the IAF and PAF has always been in numbers , since there inceptions. But the technological edge, as most people know, have always been PAF Shaheen's school of specialism. In 1965, PAF fighter pilot was interviewed upon which he said "They are falling like birds." For detail view click the following Pakistan Air Force Pilots of 1965 War -.

That was the state of readiness our PAF has ever been since.

India has been trying hard to cover the vacuum that PAF Shaheen legacy makers left. And to some extent they have been quite successful in acquiring the Mirage2000s (French) and recently Russian state of the art roll out SU-30 MKI. The aircraft has impressed many airforces around the globe including, Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, China and India in particular. Recently, Indian Airforce has been able to couple SU-30MKI aircrafts with there own indigenously developed and Israeli acquired avionics, making it a lethal fighter plane then ever before.

However, the game is not over yet!!! The will to remain intact in the war, only decides a 'Victor'. SU-30MKI is equipped with some most advance Actice ESA RADAR system Phazotron, which can track upto 15 air targets including cruise missiles and helicopters. SU-30MKI can perform complex air combat maneuvers like Pugachev's Cobra, Cobra Turns and Kulbits. And above all, the best part of the parcel is, SU-30MKI has Thrust Vectoring capability which may seem, flawless.

Even said and agreed with the technological beauty of this plane. Yet, war is not all about technology and numerical disparity. It is the way how good, one can exploit the weakness of its adversary. SU-30MKI was designed for air superiority missions including air interception and ground attack capabilities. Its air maneuverability is improved by installing canards in the front. Yet it remains a heavy plane when in the air. Thrust vector may sound amazing, but the fact is, the true potential of thrust vectoring capability during a dogfight still remain a question of doubt as of today.

The thrust vectoring in SU-30MKI forms an introverted V shaped thrust, which does not pitch the aircraft as needed, in certain air combat maneuvers e.g. doing scissor. And very unlike in F-22 Raptor which has two dimensional pitched thrust. Therefore, when the thrust vectoring is implied, it creates massive drag for such iron mass in the air, consequently, SU-30MKI is unable to sustain its height instead, it starts sinking down. And before, SU-30MKI has completed its Cobra maneuver, the pilot may be looking for ejection button, as dozen of bullets have already been drilled in to its plane by an adversary.

SU-30MKI aircraft implies two Saturn Al-31FP turbofans, which gives good thrust to the aircraft. Yet, the quality of these engines due to Russian origin still remain highly susceptible as compare to RD-93(Advance version of Russian RD-33), Pratt & Whitney or even Rolls Royce. In case of any disruption of the engines, Indians Airforce has no other choice but to send the engines back to Russia to be fixed, rather repairing them at home.

The ability of any aircraft, is exhibited as soon as it can be airborne in real time situation. SU-3MKI needs one minute spacing to take-off. Where as PAF Shaheen has been able to reduce the airborne time of A-5 aircrafts to less then one minute, which are considered to be oldest aircrafts serving today. One minute spacing means, a window of time span for PAF Shaheen to attack and destroy the rest of the SU-30MKI planes getting ready for taxi.

Last but not the least, the man behind the weapon really matters. In some of the recent air exercises held by Indian and US Airforces together like Red Flag 2008. It was found that pilots of SU-30MKIs had less then 100 flying hours, altogether. Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war. However, its not far when SU-30MKI pilots would enhance there flying hours, excavate the true potential of this aircraft and use it for there advantage.

The world is undergoing global force-repositioning phase, where every strong nation is getting ready for offensive. It is imperative that air war doctorine of PAF Shaheen should be revised and should put on offensive footing rather then ground support and air interception missions. PAF Shaheen are second to none even now. But much more work has yet to be done by fast forwarding the JF-17 induction and J-10 procurements. PAF Shaheen has to re-establish there objectivity in terms of Pakistan's vision of calling itself "FORT OF ISLAM". PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

They have plenty of SU-30 and will have Super SU-30 and Rafael in near future. While in near future our fleet of F-16 will be approx 70-80.

And F-16 is the only serious aircraft in our inventory. Rest of Light weight fighters will be annihilated by SU-30 and RAFAEL. So get out of this mentality it is always the man behind the machine. Technology has evolved up to such a point that It's not man behind the machine rather it's net centric and modern warmachines fight which we seriously lack

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

Albeit a bit dated but nonetheless interesting read on the plus and minuses of the IAF's SU-30.

@notorious_eagle @Oscar @Luftwaffe @ANTIBODY

SU-30's Cobra Maneuvers - A Treat for PAF Shaheen


By: Qasim Al-Yaldram

The disparity between the IAF and PAF has always been in numbers , since there inceptions. But the technological edge, as most people know, have always been PAF Shaheen's school of specialism. In 1965, PAF fighter pilot was interviewed upon which he said "They are falling like birds." For detail view click the following Pakistan Air Force Pilots of 1965 War -.

That was the state of readiness our PAF has ever been since.

India has been trying hard to cover the vacuum that PAF Shaheen legacy makers left. And to some extent they have been quite successful in acquiring the Mirage2000s (French) and recently Russian state of the art roll out SU-30 MKI. The aircraft has impressed many airforces around the globe including, Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, China and India in particular. Recently, Indian Airforce has been able to couple SU-30MKI aircrafts with there own indigenously developed and Israeli acquired avionics, making it a lethal fighter plane then ever before.

However, the game is not over yet!!! The will to remain intact in the war, only decides a 'Victor'. SU-30MKI is equipped with some most advance Actice ESA RADAR system Phazotron, which can track upto 15 air targets including cruise missiles and helicopters. SU-30MKI can perform complex air combat maneuvers like Pugachev's Cobra, Cobra Turns and Kulbits. And above all, the best part of the parcel is, SU-30MKI has Thrust Vectoring capability which may seem, flawless.

Even said and agreed with the technological beauty of this plane. Yet, war is not all about technology and numerical disparity. It is the way how good, one can exploit the weakness of its adversary. SU-30MKI was designed for air superiority missions including air interception and ground attack capabilities. Its air maneuverability is improved by installing canards in the front. Yet it remains a heavy plane when in the air. Thrust vector may sound amazing, but the fact is, the true potential of thrust vectoring capability during a dogfight still remain a question of doubt as of today.

The thrust vectoring in SU-30MKI forms an introverted V shaped thrust, which does not pitch the aircraft as needed, in certain air combat maneuvers e.g. doing scissor. And very unlike in F-22 Raptor which has two dimensional pitched thrust. Therefore, when the thrust vectoring is implied, it creates massive drag for such iron mass in the air, consequently, SU-30MKI is unable to sustain its height instead, it starts sinking down. And before, SU-30MKI has completed its Cobra maneuver, the pilot may be looking for ejection button, as dozen of bullets have already been drilled in to its plane by an adversary.

SU-30MKI aircraft implies two Saturn Al-31FP turbofans, which gives good thrust to the aircraft. Yet, the quality of these engines due to Russian origin still remain highly susceptible as compare to RD-93(Advance version of Russian RD-33), Pratt & Whitney or even Rolls Royce. In case of any disruption of the engines, Indians Airforce has no other choice but to send the engines back to Russia to be fixed, rather repairing them at home.

The ability of any aircraft, is exhibited as soon as it can be airborne in real time situation. SU-3MKI needs one minute spacing to take-off. Where as PAF Shaheen has been able to reduce the airborne time of A-5 aircrafts to less then one minute, which are considered to be oldest aircrafts serving today. One minute spacing means, a window of time span for PAF Shaheen to attack and destroy the rest of the SU-30MKI planes getting ready for taxi.

Last but not the least, the man behind the weapon really matters. In some of the recent air exercises held by Indian and US Airforces together like Red Flag 2008. It was found that pilots of SU-30MKIs had less then 100 flying hours, altogether. Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war. However, its not far when SU-30MKI pilots would enhance there flying hours, excavate the true potential of this aircraft and use it for there advantage.

The world is undergoing global force-repositioning phase, where every strong nation is getting ready for offensive. It is imperative that air war doctorine of PAF Shaheen should be revised and should put on offensive footing rather then ground support and air interception missions. PAF Shaheen are second to none even now. But much more work has yet to be done by fast forwarding the JF-17 induction and J-10 procurements. PAF Shaheen has to re-establish there objectivity in terms of Pakistan's vision of calling itself "FORT OF ISLAM". PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

I am wondering if the source is a PAkistani Blog....

pakmission.blogspot.com


And who is this Qasim Al-Yaldram .... a mashup of Muhammad Bin Quasim and Yaldaram????

 

[Desi Guy]

Leaving aside all the BS in the article,It would be Stupid to assume that IAF has not changed its training Tactics since 1965.

 

[Windjammer]

LMAO..... "falling like birds"...oh yeah, and IA tanks were standing like cheeta.... guns silent like thunder...

On topic: Looks like author was heavily "inspired" by the USAF officer whose video was widely debated. No substance in it at all. I have myself seen SU-30MKI doing cobra and recovering without breaking a sweat....
On other note, the chronology of PAF narration is something like this - Superior technology over number --> Superior Tech plus better training over number --> Technology and number are not the only thing.

But no need to talk through it, period refers to the epic battles of 1965, when after the first encounter, the entire fleet of IAF's Vampires and Ouragan fighter/Bombers were grounded, when the Gnat surrendered and the F-104 would fly over IAF's bases without any challenge.

 

[Thirdfront]

But no need to talk through it, period refers to the epic battles of 1965, when after the first encounter, the entire fleet of IAF's Vampires and Ouragan fighter/Bombers were grounded, when the Gnat surrendered and the F-104 would fly over IAF's bases without any challenge.

I am not going to debunk something which has been debunked over and over again... there is one saying, "ghorkalla mele maLe suridange" means whatever rain falls on rock, will not seep inside. All I was laughing for was the usage of the word, "falling like bird", I mean, birds are not known for falling but for flying. It is similar to saying silent like thunder.... still can't control laughing...

 

[Jungibaaz]

Agree. TVC is overrated.
People make it out to be something it really isn't.

 

[gubbi]

Yet, war is not all about technology and numerical disparity. It is the way how good, one can exploit the weakness of its adversary.

Technological and numerical superiority in combination will trounce any opponent. Pray what weakness is one trying to find? Unless you presume IAF to be a bunch of amateurs!!

SU-30MKI aircraft implies two Saturn Al-31FP turbofans, which gives good thrust to the aircraft. Yet, the quality of these engines due to Russian origin still remain highly susceptible as compare to RD-93(Advance version of Russian RD-33), Pratt & Whitney or even Rolls Royce. In case of any disruption of the engines, Indians Airforce has no other choice but to send the engines back to Russia to be fixed, rather repairing them at home.

Oh, ok. HAL can produce these very engines under licence production in-house, but have to send them to Russia for 'repairs'? Yup, makes sense!

The ability of any aircraft, is exhibited as soon as it can be airborne in real time situation. SU-3MKI needs one minute spacing to take-off.

This has been debunked. The 1 min spacing was at Red Flag due to maintenance concerns for the fleet at a foreign airbase. Enough said.

It was found that pilots of SU-30MKIs had less then 100 flying hours, altogether. Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war.

ROFLMAO!! I didnt know novices have hundreds of hours under their belt before they climb into a cockpit! And the point of Red Flag training exercise was to expose such novices to new techniques, who are still wet behind the ears and who can absorb these better than experienced/hardened pilots.

PAF Shaheen has to re-establish there objectivity in terms of Pakistan's vision of calling itself "FORT OF ISLAM". PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

Yup!

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

Some Important points to be noted from this (F)ARTICLE :-

Therefore, when the thrust vectoring is implied, it creates massive drag for such iron mass in the air, consequently, SU-30MKI is unable to sustain its height instead, it starts sinking down.And before, SU-30MKI has completed its Cobra maneuver, the pilot may be looking for ejection button, as dozen of bullets have already been drilled in to its plane by an adversary.

One minute spacing means, a window of time span for PAF Shaheen to attack and destroy the rest of the SU-30MKI planes getting ready for taxi.

Whereas PAF Shaheen are far more superior in terms of flying hours and quality of awareness towards the practicality of technology during the war.

PAF Shaheen has to think out of geographic boundaries and have to start working on air superiority and surgical strikes mission in India and in middle eastern fronts.

Now that's Awesome

 

[Windjammer]

I am not going to debunk something which has been debunked over and over again... there is one saying, "ghorkalla mele maLe suridange" means whatever rain falls on rock, will not seep inside. All I was laughing for was the usage of the word, "falling like bird", I mean, birds are not known for falling but for flying. It is similar to saying silent like thunder.... still can't control laughing...

Auntie Wiki will make it simple.


What is the meaning of a bird falling from the sky?
Answer:
its dead. !!

 

[baajey]

They have plenty of SU-30 and will have Super SU-30 and Rafael in near future. While in near future our fleet of F-16 will be approx 70-80.

And F-16 is the only serious aircraft in our inventory. Rest of Light weight fighters will be annihilated by SU-30 and RAFAEL. So get out of this mentality it is always the man behind the machine. Technology has evolved up to such a point that It's not man behind the machine rather it's net centric and modern warmachines fight which we seriously lack

rafale is a long dream (it seems now). it will take quite a bit of time to acquire it and much more to master it.

today awareness to technology is very important as well as situational awareness + the "G" effects.

 

[Thirdfront]

Auntie Wiki will make it simple.


What is the meaning of a bird falling from the sky?
Answer:
its dead. !!

Off course, so when someone say silent as thunder, it means currently there is no thunder ha ha ha.....
I think the correct usage would be something like "falling like a rock" or something like that.. but whatever...

 

[Scorpion666]

LMAO..... "falling like birds"...oh yeah, and IA tanks were standing like cheeta.... guns silent like thunder...

On topic: Looks like author was heavily "inspired" by the USAF officer whose video was widely debated. No substance in it at all. I have myself seen SU-30MKI doing cobra and recovering without breaking a sweat....
On other note, the chronology of PAF narration is something like this - Superior technology over number --> Superior Tech plus better training over number --> Technology and number are not the only thing.

Agree !! i stay in Pune close to the AFB.....guys believe me its a bloody delight watching those warbirds do the "Kulbit" the pilots make the maneuver look as easy as riding the bike...... 1960's was 50 years ago.....so lets not sit in the last century..