SU-30 MKI EQUIPMENT DETAILS..................anyone??

[sardar1987]

why should it be irbis e when bars can make it an aesa with a two stage upgrade ?
other than unreliable sources and rumours we are yet to see a Chinese aesa in operation, eventually they will get it so do we in the form of bars, with lesser modifications as possible and I see no reason to believe that it will be a bad one, it certainly will match the performance of any operational aesa radar today (except the fifth gen).

For the simple reason that to evolve to an aesa we have to fit a new radar and remove this one.And withthis pace of implementation it will be years till the replacement occurs.By the way chinese j-11b uses zhuk-mse having a detection range of 180 km against 3m2 target,they already have a better radar!!!

As for the range of radar can u pls clarify the max range of bars radar as all the links point to 140 km max but the vayu sena article says it can detect upto 400 km based on rcs!!Pls clarify...........as even air power australia upscaled graphs limit bars to 140 km even against a 10m2 target??

And the link in my post 29 also gives max range of 140 km only

NIIP site dosen't give specific info on bars

zhuk mse

"
The most advanced of the Phazotron Flanker radars is the Zhuk-MSFE PESA variant, currently being flight tested on the Su-27KUB/Su-33UB side-by-side cockpit navalised Flanker variant, likely to be acquired by the PLA-N as part of their intended carrier airwing for the Varyag CVA.

This radar is usually credited with a 2 KW average power rating and 8 kW peak power rating, putting it in the performance class of the NIIP N011 MSA radar on the Su-27K/Su-35 Flanker E. The PESA design has 1662 radiating elements"

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

For the simple reason that to evolve to an aesa we have to fit a new radar and remove this one.And withthis pace of implementation it will be years till the replacement occurs.By the way chinese j-11b uses zhuk-mse having a detection range of 180 km against 3m2 target,they already have a better radar!!!

As for the range of radar can u pls clarify the max range of bars radar as all the links point to 140 km max but the vayu sena article says it can detect upto 400 km based on rcs!!Pls clarify...........as even air power australia upscaled graphs limit bars to 140 km even against a 10m2 target??

And the link in my post 29 also gives max range of 140 km only

NIIP site dosen't give specific info on bars

zhuk mse

"
The most advanced of the Phazotron Flanker radars is the Zhuk-MSFE PESA variant, currently being flight tested on the Su-27KUB/Su-33UB side-by-side cockpit navalised Flanker variant, likely to be acquired by the PLA-N as part of their intended carrier airwing for the Varyag CVA.

This radar is usually credited with a 2 KW average power rating and 8 kW peak power rating, putting it in the performance class of the NIIP N011 MSA radar on the Su-27K/Su-35 Flanker E. The PESA design has 1662 radiating elements"

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...rade-su-30-fighter-aircraft-4.html#post980746

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...rade-su-30-fighter-aircraft-4.html#post980881

as for range.
140km for 5m2 target.
400km is maximum search range or physical limit, for bigger targets probably for a AWAC etc type.

 

[sardar1987]

Imho its pretty low although the radar is a dual band(both l and x band) and noise levels are also quite low but we have to consider this against f-16 and jf-17 with rcs of 3-4m2.So range against those willbe like 100-120 kms but flanker due to huge rcs of at least 10m2 will be detected at the max range of apg-68 which will be definitely>150 km

heck even klj-7 of jf-17 has a max range of 100-120 km

So i ask u what advantage do have of bars in terms of range even against these pulse doppler radars??

On the other hand irbis-e provides us with a generational change with detection of 3m2 at 350-400 km and even .01m2 at 90 km!!

I understand that interms of resolution and jamming capabalities its better than at least jf-17 radar but as for apg-68(v9) i am not sure as its the latest version of quite capable apg-68 series

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Imho its pretty low although the radar is a dual band(both l and x band) and noise levels are also quite low but we have to consider this against f-16 and jf-17 with rcs of 3-4m2.So range against those willbe like 100-120 kms but flanker due to huge rcs of at least 10m2 will be detected at the max range of apg-68 which will be definitely>150 km

heck even klj-7 of jf-17 has a max range of 100-120 km

So i ask u what advantage do have of bars in terms of range even against these pulse doppler radars??

On the other hand irbis-e provides us with a generational change with detection of 3m2 at 350-400 km and even .01m2 at 90 km!!

once mki get the ram coating RCS can be reduced to something near to su35 RCS.
for jf17 vs mki scenario there are plenty of discussion in this forum, you just need to search it, don't mention jf17 here it will become a vs thread soon.
I see only two weakness in mki
1)RCS
2)RVV AE(80KM) compared to aim120c5(105km).

 

[sardar1987]

once mki get the ram coating RCS can be reduced to something near to su35 RCS.
for jf17 vs mki scenario there are plenty of discussion in this forum, you just need to search it, don't mention jf17 here it will become a vs thread soon.
I see only two weakness in mki
1)RCS
2)RVV AE(80KM) compared to aim120c5(105km).

But the fact remains that our mki(not the new russian mkk) have zero composites and no radar coating whatsoever
Russian sources quote mki rcs around 20m2 and we can try but am not very hopeful

SU-35S rcs is estimated to be at least<5m2

Yes it maybe the only weakness but its a huge one considering we have a weak radar and the enemy sees us first

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

But the fact remains that our mki(not the new russian mkk) have zero composites and no radar coating whatsoever
Russian sources quote mki rcs around 20m2 and we can try but am not very hopeful

SU-35S rcs is estimated to be at least<5m2

Yes it maybe the only weakness but its a huge one considering we have a weak radar and the enemy sees us first

if I remember correctly mki her 6% composite by weight.
we will have our radar upgrades and RCS reduction soon enough.
even though there are no material evidence it is believed that mki's already RCS reduction coating.
big radar and early detection helps but it's not a very Significant advantage if you don't have the weapon range to utilise that early detection.

 

[sardar1987]

if I remember correctly mki her 6% composite by weight.
we will have our radar upgrades and RCS reduction soon enough.
even though there are no material evidence it is believed that mki's already RCS reduction coating.
big radar and early detection helps but it's not a very Significant advantage if you don't have the weapon range to utilise that early detection.

Sure enough but i have shown by simple calculation that we have a disadvantage and ram coating can only have a nominal effect as fan blades are still completely exposed and we need a radar blocker for compressor blades if we are to reduce the rcs.

And for the sake of simplicity i was only comparing with jf-17 and f-16.We have to look at future scenario 5 years down the line,mostly the chinese developments.

my conclusion------The rcs reduction will have only nominal effect and so we need atleast a powerful radar soon enough to offset this disadvantage.And mki may have 6 % composites but it is way way low according to the recent trends.Even tejas has about 25% wt as composites and so do the new russian su-30 and chinese fighters

These small details are rattling,no doubt but atleast better be critical now than be exposed in war and in my opinion IAF made a big mistake with bars especially with irbis-e around as the size fits the mki and russians will be happy to upgrade

We made same mistake by going with zhuk-m in mig 29 with range of 140 km for 5m2.Its too low especially for a carrier based fighter but here we are in a land of babudom........spending money on c-17 and whatnot without realizing the importance of upgrading the strike aircraft.

And why is no one commenting on these glaring things i have posted??Are ppl in denial?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Sure enough but i have shown by simple calculation that we have a disadvantage and ram coating can only have a nominal effect as fan blades are still completely exposed and we need a radar blocker for compressor blades if we are to reduce the rcs.

And for the sake of simplicity i was only comparing with jf-17 and f-16.We have to look at future scenario 5 years down the line,mostly the chinese developments.

my conclusion------The rcs reduction will have only nominal effect and so we need atleast a powerful radar soon enough to offset this disadvantage.And mki may have 6 % composites but it is way way low according to the recent trends.Even tejas has about 25% wt as composites and so do the new russian su-30 and chinese fighters

These small details are rattling,no doubt but atleast better be critical now than be exposed in war and in my opinion IAF made a big mistake with bars especially with irbis-e around as the size fits the mki and russians will be happy to upgrade

We made same mistake by going with zhuk-m in mig 29 with range of 140 km for 5m2.Its too low especially for a carrier based fighter but here we are in a land of babudom........spending money on c-17 and whatnot without realizing the importance of upgrading the strike aircraft.

And why is no one commenting on these glaring things i have posted??Are ppl in denial?

Well I dont think anyone else makes any aircraft for STOBAR carriers. Only option was the MiG 29K and the Su 33K. The Su 33k is too large to be carried in a 45k ton carrier. So the MiG 29 was chosen. When the contract was signed the Zhuk-AE did not exist even on paper.

 

[sardar1987]

Well I dont think anyone else makes any aircraft for STOBAR carriers. Only option was the MiG 29K and the Su 33K. The Su 33k is too large to be carried in a 45k ton carrier. So the MiG 29 was chosen. When the contract was signed the Zhuk-AE did not exist even on paper.

But certainly we can renegotiate considering we will operate these birds for atleast 20 years!!
And the next upgrade will take at least 10 years and this radar simply sucks,,,,,,apg-68 beats this thing in everything and am not even talking about plaaf su 33 with huk mse that will butcher this thing

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Sure enough but i have shown by simple calculation that we have a disadvantage and ram coating can only have a nominal effect as fan blades are still completely exposed and we need a radar blocker for compressor blades if we are to reduce the rcs.

And for the sake of simplicity i was only comparing with jf-17 and f-16.We have to look at future scenario 5 years down the line,mostly the chinese developments.

my conclusion------The rcs reduction will have only nominal effect and so we need atleast a powerful radar soon enough to offset this disadvantage.And mki may have 6 % composites but it is way way low according to the recent trends.Even tejas has about 25% wt as composites and so do the new russian su-30 and chinese fighters

These small details are rattling,no doubt but atleast better be critical now than be exposed in war and in my opinion IAF made a big mistake with bars especially with irbis-e around as the size fits the mki and russians will be happy to upgrade

We made same mistake by going with zhuk-m in mig 29 with range of 140 km for 5m2.Its too low especially for a carrier based fighter but here we are in a land of babudom........spending money on c-17 and whatnot without realizing the importance of upgrading the strike aircraft.

And why is no one commenting on these glaring things i have posted??Are ppl in denial?

1)we don't know the specification of bars aesa so there is no point in assuming it will be inferior to other Chinese jet with 4.5 aesa radars.upgrade is decisions are made by calculating cost vs benefit, and I guess replacing the existing radars of whole mki fleet with new irbis e will not make any significant advantage over converting the existing radar into aesa with fewer replacement of components.
2) c17 is part of a quick response and force deployment strategy, every system is important, let us leave it to the iaf decision makers who knows better than us.
3)I too when for zuk aesa for mig 29 but I guess cost or time delay might have forced them to settle with zuk m2e.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

But certainly we can renegotiate considering we will operate these birds for atleast 20 years!!
And the next upgrade will take at least 10 years and this radar simply sucks,,,,,,apg-68 beats this thing in everything and am not even talking about plaaf su 33 with huk mse that will butcher this thing

Well those are on cards when the MiGs go for MLUs. The Zhuk ME specs are not totally out in the open.

And can you post me a link that says that?

 

[sardar1987]

1)we don't know the specification of bars aesa so there is no point in assuming it will be inferior to other Chinese jet with 4.5 aesa radars.upgrade is decisions are made by calculating cost vs benefit, and I guess replacing the existing radars of whole mki fleet with new irbis e will not make any significant advantage over converting the existing radar into aesa with fewer replacement of components.
2) c17 is part of a quick response and force deployment strategy, every system is important, let us leave it to the iaf decision makers who knows better than us.
3)I too when for zuk aesa for mig 29 but I guess cost or time delay might have forced them to settle with zuk m2e.

Ok then bear me out pls

WRT COST

1)We are prepared to buy rafale for 100 million per piece

2)investing heavily in pakfa

3)amca in pipeline

And when our strike aircrafts...........both su-30 and mig-29 have radars that are old and not even the top line of pesa technology

I have posted details of bars pesa,all the variants with data too and it turns out to be a weak radar compared to even what russians are currently offering,forget about western aesa

Chinese pesa on their su-33 is zhuk-mse(details posted previous page ) and it outruns zhuk-m by miles and is comparable to at least bars
My point-------------su 33 isn't even their main strike aircraft!!!

Well those are on cards when the MiGs go for MLUs. The Zhuk ME specs are not totally out in the open.

And can you post me a link that says that?

I have posted so many links about zhuk-m and other russian radars and with peak power output of 5kw what do u expect,,,on the top of that its a simple pulse doppler radar!!

For the comparison peak power output of best bars radar is about 8kw and irbis pesa is 18kw!!!
all the western aesa are in range of 20-22 kw

Well those are on cards when the MiGs go for MLUs. The Zhuk ME specs are not totally out in the open.

And can you post me a link that says that?

here u go
http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Warners-and-Sensors/Zhuk-ME_a001457001.aspx

its primitive man

 

[sardar1987]

Well those are on cards when the MiGs go for MLUs. The Zhuk ME specs are not totally out in the open.

And can you post me a link that says that?

here is more with same stats.........even lower i would say,lol

Zhuk Radar | MiG Alley Military Aviation News - MiG Aircraft - Military Aircraft - Aircraft Pictures

 

[sardar1987]

The range is not even 140 kn.......its 120 km for 5m2

 

[senkakudefender]

This is the worst site................everything is bullshit and far from facts

Better than Karlo Kopp. Aus Air Power sucks. Face it Americans are way ahead of us. Russians come second but by a wide margin. EU follows closely. Chinese limp on in the background.