SU-30 MKI EQUIPMENT DETAILS..................anyone??

[sardar1987]

See i have given only karlo klopp data which remains undisputed as it is based on facts
Sure his analysis is bullshit...........but u cannot challenge his technical data which is what i did

On the other hand wiki posts only vague data......does it post the power output of radars??and details of components??nooo

It is speculating on the N050 aesa based on irbis e pesa??how is that possible??

 

[senkakudefender]

The range is not even 140 kn.......its 120 km for 5m2

[/QUOT

Paaji radar used by Sugar ( chini) on J15 and SU 30 mkk is early build of NO11 BARS.

In 2000, China placed an order of passive electronically scanned array radar named Sokol (Falcon), designed by Phazotron, while the radar was still under development, it is reported that China had either partially funded or joined the development, but this can not be confirmed. All twenty units were delivered in 2004 after the development completed at the end of 2003, and the radars are installed on the Su-30MK2. The maximum range, average and peak power of Sokol radar remain the same as that of Zhuk-MSE radar on Su-30MKK, but the maximum number of targets it can simultaneously track actually decreased by 40%, from the original 20 to 12. However, the number of targets it can simultaneously engage is increased to six from the original four, thus fully utilizing the capability of the SUV-VEP subsystem of the onboard fire control system. The diameter of the antenna array is increased to 980 mm from the 960 mm of Zhuk-MS/MSE. The scan sector of the radar is 170 degrees and the elevation of the scan is from −40 degrees to +56 degrees. The radar has three receivers and a gain of 37 dB. When used against surface targets like a destroyer, the maximum range is doubled to 300 km, same as that of American AN/APG-68. There is not any confirmation for any follow-on orders of Sokol radar and unlike the capability optronic pod, this radar capability is not known to be added to the earlier Su-30MKKs during the incremental upgrades.

 

[sardar1987]

I totally agree that americans are way way ahead

my only contention is---------------why don't we atleast use the best russian tech available??
better than nothing i would say,but its not happening as u can see in my above posts on zhuk-m radar and bars pesa

 

[senkakudefender]

The range is not even 140 kn.......its 120 km for 5m2

[/QUOT

Paaji radar used by Sugar ( chini) on J15 and SU 30 mkk is early build of NO11 BARS.

In 2000, China placed an order of passive electronically scanned array radar named Sokol (Falcon), designed by Phazotron, while the radar was still under development, it is reported that China had either partially funded or joined the development, but this can not be confirmed. All twenty units were delivered in 2004 after the development completed at the end of 2003, and the radars are installed on the Su-30MK2. The maximum range, average and peak power of Sokol radar remain the same as that of Zhuk-MSE radar on Su-30MKK, but the maximum number of targets it can simultaneously track actually decreased by 40%, from the original 20 to 12. However, the number of targets it can simultaneously engage is increased to six from the original four, thus fully utilizing the capability of the SUV-VEP subsystem of the onboard fire control system. The diameter of the antenna array is increased to 980 mm from the 960 mm of Zhuk-MS/MSE. The scan sector of the radar is 170 degrees and the elevation of the scan is from −40 degrees to +56 degrees. The radar has three receivers and a gain of 37 dB. When used against surface targets like a destroyer, the maximum range is doubled to 300 km, same as that of American AN/APG-68. There is not any confirmation for any follow-on orders of Sokol radar and unlike the capability optronic pod, this radar capability is not known to be added to the earlier Su-30MKKs during the incremental upgrades.



Here is some good news :

 

[sardar1987]

The range is not even 140 kn.......its 120 km for 5m2

[/QUOT

Paaji radar used by Sugar ( chini) on J15 and SU 30 mkk is early build of NO11 BARS.

In 2000, China placed an order of passive electronically scanned array radar named Sokol (Falcon), designed by Phazotron, while the radar was still under development, it is reported that China had either partially funded or joined the development, but this can not be confirmed. All twenty units were delivered in 2004 after the development completed at the end of 2003, and the radars are installed on the Su-30MK2. The maximum range, average and peak power of Sokol radar remain the same as that of Zhuk-MSE radar on Su-30MKK, but the maximum number of targets it can simultaneously track actually decreased by 40%, from the original 20 to 12. However, the number of targets it can simultaneously engage is increased to six from the original four, thus fully utilizing the capability of the SUV-VEP subsystem of the onboard fire control system. The diameter of the antenna array is increased to 980 mm from the 960 mm of Zhuk-MS/MSE. The scan sector of the radar is 170 degrees and the elevation of the scan is from −40 degrees to +56 degrees. The radar has three receivers and a gain of 37 dB. When used against surface targets like a destroyer, the maximum range is doubled to 300 km, same as that of American AN/APG-68. There is not any confirmation for any follow-on orders of Sokol radar and unlike the capability optronic pod, this radar capability is not known to be added to the earlier Su-30MKKs during the incremental upgrades.

Wrong again.............the su-33 uses zhuk mse and its unrelated to bars .why??

bars-------manufactured by tikhomirov niip
zhuk mse--------by phazotron niir

And we have to compare zhuk m of our mig 29 with zhuk mse of their sukhoi 33

and here we get spanked badly

The range is not even 140 kn.......its 120 km for 5m2

[/QUOT

Paaji radar used by Sugar ( chini) on J15 and SU 30 mkk is early build of NO11 BARS.

In 2000, China placed an order of passive electronically scanned array radar named Sokol (Falcon), designed by Phazotron, while the radar was still under development, it is reported that China had either partially funded or joined the development, but this can not be confirmed. All twenty units were delivered in 2004 after the development completed at the end of 2003, and the radars are installed on the Su-30MK2. The maximum range, average and peak power of Sokol radar remain the same as that of Zhuk-MSE radar on Su-30MKK, but the maximum number of targets it can simultaneously track actually decreased by 40%, from the original 20 to 12. However, the number of targets it can simultaneously engage is increased to six from the original four, thus fully utilizing the capability of the SUV-VEP subsystem of the onboard fire control system. The diameter of the antenna array is increased to 980 mm from the 960 mm of Zhuk-MS/MSE. The scan sector of the radar is 170 degrees and the elevation of the scan is from −40 degrees to +56 degrees. The radar has three receivers and a gain of 37 dB. When used against surface targets like a destroyer, the maximum range is doubled to 300 km, same as that of American AN/APG-68. There is not any confirmation for any follow-on orders of Sokol radar and unlike the capability optronic pod, this radar capability is not known to be added to the earlier Su-30MKKs during the incremental upgrades.



Here is some good news :

Looks like u are new to this thread man
go to page no 1 to know details of zhuk-ae with shortcomings

i think its the second last post of first page complete with images and official data

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Ok then bear me out pls

WRT COST

1)We are prepared to buy rafale for 100 million per piece

2)investing heavily in pakfa

3)amca in pipeline

And when our strike aircrafts...........both su-30 and mig-29 have radars that are old and not even the top line of pesa technology

I have posted details of bars pesa,all the variants with data too and it turns out to be a weak radar compared to even what russians are currently offering,forget about western aesa

Chinese pesa on their su-33 is zhuk-mse(details posted previous page ) and it outruns zhuk-m by miles and is comparable to at least bars
My point-------------su 33 isn't even their main strike aircraft!!!



I have posted so many links about zhuk-m and other russian radars and with peak power output of 5kw what do u expect,,,on the top of that its a simple pulse doppler radar!!

For the comparison peak power output of best bars radar is about 8kw and irbis pesa is 18kw!!!
all the western aesa are in range of 20-22 kw



here u go
Zhuk-ME

well there are a lot of other things
to calculate the range and not only the peak power output.
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...=MwITDKggeBhNnM6TMg-CIg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.bmk

 

[sardar1987]

well there are a lot of other things
to calculate the range and not only the peak power output.
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...=MwITDKggeBhNnM6TMg-CIg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.bmk

See I KNOW ALL THESE THINGS BUT

Both the zhuk m and mse are of the same oem ie PHAZOTRON NIIR

So its logical to assume that a pulse doppler radar will be inferior to a pesa...............assuming that both are made by same company!!!

And yes things like gain and all are important but we are talking of generational change here

from pulse doppler to pesa!!

 

[satishkumarcsc]

See I KNOW ALL THESE THINGS BUT

Both the zhuk m and mse are of the same oem ie PHAZOTRON NIIR

So its logical to assume that a pulse doppler radar will be inferior to a pesa...............assuming that both are made by same company!!!

And yes things like gain and all are important but we are talking of generational change here

from pulse doppler to pesa!!

Well everything works on the pulse doppler thory. It is just the steering that varies. in the Mechanical array the beams are steered by mechanical devices but in the electronically steered radars they are steered by using higher peak power output. So mechanically scanned radars are maintenance intensive and serviceability rate is lower compared to the electronically steered system.

I'am not against the phased array systems and I think the MiG 29k must be upgraded to it.

 

[sardar1987]

Well everything works on the pulse doppler thory. It is just the steering that varies. in the Mechanical array the beams are steered by mechanical devices but in the electronically steered radars they are steered by using higher peak power output. So mechanically scanned radars are maintenance intensive and serviceability rate is lower compared to the electronically steered system.

I'am not against the phased array systems and I think the MiG 29k must be upgraded to it.

Yes the sole purpose of this debate was to expose the claims of ppl who think that our fighter have a qualitative superiority over pakistan and china because this analysis shows we don't.

Who's to blame

1)IAF itself should have realized that we are operating 60 obsolete mig's wrt to electronics and the top notch upgradation should have been the top priority

2)Whereas Iaf spent like billion of so in upgradation of mirage 2000 to 2000-5 standard(or its undergoing whatever),,,,when its not even a dedicated air superiority aircraft!!
What about 180 sukhois and the 60 odd mig's??This upgrade to mig-k is just baniyagiri in my
opinion.What was stopping us to get a western pesa/aesa here?

3)Foolish govt ofcourse too

4)Phazotron niir:They are in total dumps,,just visit their site and u will know

scenario:not looking good considering the threat perception

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Yes the sole purpose of this debate was to expose the claims of ppl who think that our fighter have a qualitative superiority over pakistan and china because this analysis shows we don't.

Who's to blame

1)IAF itself should have realized that we are operating 60 obsolete mig's wrt to electronics and the top notch upgradation should have been the top priority

2)Whereas Iaf spent like billion of so in upgradation of mirage 2000 to 2000-5 standard(or its undergoing whatever),,,,when its not even a dedicated air superiority aircraft!!
What about 180 sukhois and the 60 odd mig's??This upgrade to mig-k is just baniyagiri in my
opinion.What was stopping us to get a western pesa/aesa here?

3)Foolish govt ofcourse too

4)Phazotron niir:They are in total dumps,,just visit their site and u will know

scenario:not looking good considering the threat perception

Well we can buy only what is in offer. Read the fiasco about the Elta 2052 radar and the American intervention. Actually this was one of the things that pissed of the IAF from shortlisting the hornet. The IAF right now needs strike aircraft more than air superiority. The MiG 29 SMT upgrade is good and for detection I guess the AWACS will do a good job and through Datalink-II can send the co-ordinates to intercept. And all these stories about the MiG radar to be inferior is just a big lie.

Remember Kargil when the Indian MiGs locked on the PAF F 16s 40 miles away? and the longest range of the missile R 77 is 100 kms at a non maneuvering target. So the effective range is around 40 or 50 kms. And the F 16s are said to have a 1 m^2 RCS. Do the math my man.

 

[sardar1987]

But don't forget paf f-16 had no bvr capability then ................Now scenario has changed,my only contention being we should have spent atleast 10 million more per aircraft and it would have brought the aircraft to a new standard and cost us like only 600 million more!!!not enough

my the way about zhuk ae...........found this

Well we can buy only what is in offer. Read the fiasco about the Elta 2052 radar and the American intervention. Actually this was one of the things that pissed of the IAF from shortlisting the hornet. The IAF right now needs strike aircraft more than air superiority. The MiG 29 SMT upgrade is good and for detection I guess the AWACS will do a good job and through Datalink-II can send the co-ordinates to intercept. And all these stories about the MiG radar to be inferior is just a big lie.

Remember Kargil when the Indian MiGs locked on the PAF F 16s 40 miles away? and the longest range of the missile R 77 is 100 kms at a non maneuvering target. So the effective range is around 40 or 50 kms. And the F 16s are said to have a 1 m^2 RCS. Do the math my man.

Yes russian industry is fucked for sure looking at these radars,we must step up indigenous development i guess

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Ok then bear me out pls * WRT COST * 1)We are prepared to buy rafale for 100 million per piece * 2)investing heavily in pakfa * 3)amca in pipeline * And when our strike aircrafts...........both su-30 and mig-29 have radars that are old and not even the top line of pesa technology * I have posted details of bars pesa,all the variants with data too and it turns out to be a weak radar compared to even what russians are currently offering,forget about western aesa * Chinese pesa on their su-33 is zhuk-mse(details posted previous page ) and it outruns zhuk-m by miles and is comparable to at least bars My point-------------su 33 isn't even their main strike aircraft!!! * * * I have posted so many links about zhuk-m and other russian radars and with peak power output of 5kw what do u expect,,,on the top of that its a simple pulse doppler radar!! * For the comparison peak power output of best bars radar is about 8kw and irbis pesa is 18kw!!! all the western aesa are in range of 20-22 kw * * * here u go Zhuk-ME * its primitive man

.1) we are buying Rafale, (100 dollars ? I don't know, nobody knows) because Rafale was cheaper than typhoon and rest of the jets didn't even qualify to be considered. 2)investing in pakfa because we need a fifth gen jet by the time Chinese is ready with j20. 3)Amca in pipe line, currently freezed, might get cancelled or converted as naval platform, too early to say anything. 4) Chinese have better range radar than current mki and mig - that's *why we are upgrading the bars to aesa, first stage Pesa will have more range and performance than current configuration, second range it will be converted to an aesa, once upgraded the bars will have more range, power, etc so what's the problem ?

 

[IND151]

Bhai koi to contribute karo.....................u are not concerned about super sukhoi upgrade??

Super MKI will have engine based on AL 31FP but it will have life of 6,000 hours instead of 2,000 hours and thrust of 15,000 kg

 

[sardar1987]

.1) we are buying Rafale, (100 dollars ? I don't know, nobody knows) because Rafale was cheaper than typhoon and rest of the jets didn't even qualify to be considered. 2)investing in pakfa because we need a fifth gen jet by the time Chinese is ready with j20. 3)Amca in pipe line, currently freezed, might get cancelled or converted as naval platform, too early to say anything. 4) Chinese have better range radar than current mki and mig - that's *why we are upgrading the bars to aesa, first stage Pesa will have more range and performance than current configuration, second range it will be converted to an aesa, once upgraded the bars will have more range, power, etc so what's the problem ?

The upgradation u are saying will take 5-10 years as

1)bars pesa has hardware limit(how much more can u stretch it)

2)the aesa u are proposing dosen't even exist on paper,heck pakfa aesa will be ready only in 2015!!

What till then??

And regarding mig-29 i have already explained that its upgradation was more to do with money than ensuring better capabilities.

My problem is that we have upgraded only the software of bars m in the last 6-8 years and its not enough for a dedicated air superiority fighter when better alternatives are available from the same company(irbis e)

I understand u want aesa only..........me too...........but it would take like 6-8 years to fructify as its not even planned man
The only possibility as i stated in page 1 is zhuk-ae which is undergoing testing right now with bigger antena and>1000 t/r elements and maybe become operational in 2-3 years

All i want is that current new produced sukhoi's (the last batch) come with irbis e instead of bars......simple

 

[Mitro]

What is the point of having good radar when BVR missile scuks with no proved record .Su30MKI is just seating duck for AMRAAM-120C5 which is proven in combat.

And you are the only aviation expert in the world? The kind of bs you get to read on pdf these days !