Strength of alliance between India-Isreal

[iPakMan]

No, you are indulging in your own Islamophobia because it is tolerated here. If anyone referred to the Israelis in a similar fashion, since they justify their behavior by a similar misinterpretation of the Torah and Talmud, they would be branded anti-semitic.

As for the rest of your sanctimonious tripe, there are lots of skeletons in everyone's closet, including Jews and Hindus. Let's just leave it at that.



No, that was in response to the generic statement that national interests supercede historical grievances. My point was that when grievances are not just historical but current, then the situation changes.



Yes, I read it and my response (I am not sure if I posted it) was: you did not do 'business' with apartheid-era South Africa, so why Israel?

After all, none other than Nelson Mandela equated the two.



Israel uses the Palestinian terror as an excuse for its brutality. It's a vicious circle and the Israelis, being the ones in power, can end it immediately by allowing the Palestinians refugees to return to their homes in Israel.

In the case of India, there are allegations, by Indians, that random Muslims get harassed every time some terror scare occurs. Now I am not saying that India is anti-Muslim, but there are certainly elements that use counter-terrorism as a cover to indulge in anti-Muslim bigotry.

Given that situation, and Israel's history, is it really the best country to ally with in fighting terrorism?

Again, you for some deluded reasoning actually believe that Islamic Nations are somehow better than Israel when History itself shows just what type of people you are.
You suggest we end conflict by letting Palestinian refugees back into Israel but you fail to mention that it would End Israel.
And if we actually go into detail about skeletons of Islamic Nations throughout history, i believe we will need a closet the size of a continent to actually sort them out.
And we unlike Islamic Nations do not allow Ultra religious people become our Leaders because in Israel we feel that in this day of age, there is no room for religious Nuts to rule over countries. Unlike you, we do not call for the death of all Muslims or Christians or Hindus. You are not fooling no one when equating the Torah to the Qoran. I will say like i said before that Qoran could be a great Holy Scripture if only taking from it the very best about Good and not the worst of evil.

 

[Developereo]

Firstly, lets not rip each other's quote out of context. Here's my quote in entirety.

The comments on 'emotional mumbo jumbo' still apply.

Secondly, the Chinese are of course exempted, right?

Already explained the part about Western tech.

Nice snake oil there. It would have been a lot more convincing if you hadn't called Israel 'anti-Islam' etc. and given a long lecture why you think it is so. Your flip-flops are becoming epic.

No flip flop - only in your mind.

I listed the Israeli actions and laws that make it anti-Muslim.
That fact remains true regardless of whether I am a Muslim or not.
There is no kinship required; there are plenty of non-Muslims who oppose Israel also.

But you are not just commenting. You are practically telling us how we should run our country, or what friends we should keep; why and how.

I am touched that you give so much importance to comments on an internet forum.

Really, you know exactly what 'Isreal represents' in 'most of the world's' mind?

Certainly. Public opinion polls prove it.

More snake oil. Why would accessing western tech, primarily military ones, be considered as such an 'extenuating circumstance' that would excuse China for having 'sold their soul' to deal with the 'devil'. Would there have been severe food shortages without those western techs, like for example, IAI Lavi? Would China have perished without western techs? Would there have been severe calamities in China if it were not for those Western techs?

Western military tech is paramount for a rising power which is perceived as a challenge by the established order. China knows it has to have the latest in military tech -- by whatever means necessary.

Oh, by the way, the Israeli-Chinese co-operation began in early 80s. Embargo was imposed in 1989. You were saying...?

Even before the official embargo, Japan has been in the forefront lobbying against Western technology transfer to China. The embargo only made it official.

 

[Developereo]

Again, you for some deluded reasoning actually believe that Islamic Nations are somehow better than Israel when History itself shows just what type of people you are.
You suggest we end conflict by letting Palestinian refugees back into Israel but you fail to mention that it would End Israel.
And if we actually go into detail about skeletons of Islamic Nations throughout history, i believe we will need a closet the size of a continent to actually sort them out.
And we unlike Islamic Nations do not allow Ultra religious people become our Leaders because in Israel we feel that in this day of age, there is no room for religious Nuts to rule over countries. Unlike you, we do not call for the death of all Muslims or Christians or Hindus. You are not fooling no one when equating the Torah to the Qoran. I will say like i said before that Qoran could be a great Holy Scripture if only taking from it the very best about Good and not the worst of evil.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are speaking from ignorance rather than deliberate subterfuge.

Most of your keaders have been war criminals, whom you call heroes. Some where even officially classified as terrorists by the West.

As for religious nuts, look up Avigdor Lieberman, Bibi Netanyahu.
Look up Meir Kahane and what the Kach party says about Arabs. 'Arab pigs' is a common term among racist Jews in Israel.
Look up what the ancient Hebrews did to the Canaanites.

There are plenty of bigotry-inciting quotes in the Torah and the Talmud -- I will not list them here.

 

[iPakMan]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are speaking from ignorance rather than deliberate subterfuge.

Most of your keaders have been war criminals, whom you call heroes. Some where even officially classified as terrorists by the West.

As for religious nuts, look up Avigdor Lieberman, Bibi Netanyahu.
Look up Meir Kahane and what the Kach party says about Arabs. 'Arab pigs' is a common term among racist Jews in Israel.
Look up what the ancient Hebrews did to the Canaanites.

There are plenty of bigotry-inciting quotes in the Torah and the Talmud -- I will not list them here.

I too will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are clearly talking out of Ignorance.
All of my leaders were great men and women that defended this country from vile "Men", if you fall under that category, like you.
Avigador Lieberman is an Idealistic nut not a religious one. Meir Kahane falls under that "Ultra Religious Nuts" category and he was never a leader of the Jewish Nation.
Bibi Netanyahu is a great man, greater than you can comprehend. He is no Rabbi nor a deep follower of Jewish religion, he like me is a Secular Traditional Zionist Jew.
And you too can look up what the Ancient "X" did to the Ancient "Y", but we unlike you have moved past the Ancient part and live in the Modern world.

 

[Vinod2070]

I only deal with facts.
You keep popping up with diversionsary rants, I confront you with actual facts, and you run off into a different diversion.

You deal with selective facts and heavily jaundiced opinions and it has been made amply clear here.

Someone sure is looking stupid here, and it ain't me.

You will think so, being a delusional person.

All your pretensions to morality has been blown away and your real self has been exposed for all to see.

Because it is jsut your excuse to revel in gratuitous Pakistan bashing. It doesn't involve millions of people living in refugee camps. We are not talking about solving all the world's problems, just one of the most severe cases, i.e. Israel.

No, we are not talking of solving any problem! The topic was only Indo-Israel relations and what it means.

You made it into an issue about it being "anti Pakistan" and therefore "anti Islam" and disingenuously tried to bring in Indian Muslims.

Your intentions have been very clear right from the beginning. Make no mistake about it.

When someone keeps avoiding the topic and launching into anti-Islam tirades, the shoe fits.

Every inconvenient fact looks anti-Islam to you. I can't help it.

I already explained in a previous post why I have become more extreme in my views on Israel.

Your being extreme towards Israel (and also India, only a bit more surreptitiously) has always been clear. I frankly don't give a damn. I have seen far too many of such people and though I can understand your reasons, I can't say I have any sympathy for such people.

And no, I am still not the one who wants mass extinction in the ME. That distinction belongs to you with your 'bring it on', living your Islamophobic fantasies vicariously through Israel.

It is not pious comments that mean anything. It is the actions (in this case the content of your posts).

You want other countries to fight a war with a nuclear Israel that has made it clear that in case it faces extinction, it will go down with the Arab world. You want these conditions to occur by trying to force the Israelis out (which BTW is beyond you).

I long stopped worrying about Islamists calling me Islamophobe. There is no such thing, just a diversion of you guys to stop thinking of hard issues.

The BJP sanctioned currlculum is true. I have already posted links quoting religiously bigoted passages from the school textbooks.
The issue, once again, is one of scale: is it one of the most extreme cases of religious bigotry on the planet or should we deal with those other cases first?

Little knowledge again. Anyway our commie historians have always tried to hide that barbaric period by hiding it all and making history a boring subject so that all lose interest in it.

Anyway, does it justify what I pointed out in your textbooks?

Uh huh. here comes the sanctimonious lecture when I refuted yet another one of your ridiculous canards.
You claimed that Israeli Arabs enjoyed full equal rights in Israel. They don't. I showed you. QED.

I said full legal equality. Much more than in your own country and several Islamic countries.

You ran as expected, claiming that the minorities should be grateful for not being bundled off to ghettos.

Why expect better from those you are decrying than your own? Is that not hypocrisy?

You are the one who brought up India's human rights record. Not me. I merely listed a couple of state-sanctioned massacres off the top of my head.

Hallucination again.

No, you will just whitewash it and dismiss them as aberrations, ignoring the fact that most of the culprits are still running free.

OK, did a single one of your own get punished for the biggest genocide after WW-2? One single person for the biggest genocide!!!!! Much bigger than any in the ME. Much bigger than the 25000 Palestinians that were killed by Zia on black Friday!

You still want to preach?

I won't go into a litany of India's human rights problems -- not because of lack of material -- but simply to remain on topic. Suffice it to say that you are looking selectively at the negative picture only. My friends and family are from a Shia minority sect and are doing just fine. In fact, better than fine. And our Parsi and Christian friends are also doing just fine.

You brought in India into this by bringing decade old "riots". Your hypocrisy has been exposed.

Some individuals you know doing fine doesn't mean what I quoted was false!

There are problems in Pakistan but they are mostly due to lack of law and order, thereby allowing criminals to take advantage.

That depends on how one looks at it.

Others may not be so considerate, especially given what you expect from others.

 

[Vinod2070]

Disingenuous. The discussion is specifically about military alliances, not mere diplomatic ties.

OK, which anti-Islam alliance did India join? Who were the pre-existing members of that anti-Islam alliance?

The poll numbers for Israel are remarkably consistent over time; they mau shift a few percent up or down, but not much change.

In any case, the point which you lost once again, was your assertion that most of the world favors Israel (based on the chart of diplomatic relations). I proved you wrong. Point scored.

The rest of your post is your usual tap dancing to wiggle into some new diversion after losing a point.

You claimed something on the basis of one poll.

I showed another poll but that seems to be a diversion for some reasons?

 

[Vinod2070]

CD already mentioned a major factor: access to Western tech despite Western embargo.

India doesn't have such an embargo.

India is facing terror from an irrendist state supporter of terror that seeks to shield behind nukes.

It has much more important reasons to seek friends who face similar danger from religious fanatics who want to run amok all over the world.

I would think that those opposing it may be wanting a repeat of 26/11?

Anyway, we are friends in this fight against fanatic extremists looking to dominate the world.

 

[Vinod2070]

Certainly. Public opinion polls prove it.

So what do these poll numbers prove?

Negative views of Muslims were also strong in several Asian countries: Half or more of the Japanese, Indians, Chinese and South Koreans surveyed said they had negative impressions of Muslims.

Negative feelings about Jews were somewhat less strong, from 32 percent in India to 55 percent in China, with Japan and South Korea falling in between.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/world/europe/17iht-poll.4.16247639.html

Why would your greatest ally hate you?

BTW, did these polls reflect Islamophobia? Won't you say?

 

[Vinod2070]

There are problems in Pakistan but they are mostly due to lack of law and order, thereby allowing criminals to take advantage.

What if I show you how many of these sectarian outfits are state supported?

That the persecution of Shia is state supported?

That the persecution of Ahmedis is state supported and even you personally were a part of it?

That MQM that kills Pushtuns in hundreds in Karachi is part of so many governments, even army run ones? State supported enough?

What if I show you that Musharraf killed many Shia is Northern areas while he was a Brigadier?

Are all these just "law and order" issues?

 

[Vinod2070]

As for the rest of your sanctimonious tripe, there are lots of skeletons in everyone's closet, including Jews and Hindus. Let's just leave it at that.

So are there skeletons in the Islamic closet too? Really! What would be some of those?

Let me tell you, those brutal invasions of the subcontinent have not been forgotten and they are still an open wound. No one from the Islamic world has ever tried to close it and offer the massive apology that is needed. They are still looked at as the golden period and the kaffirs deserved it all. They will repeat it if possible as nothing can change from what is already final and perfect.

What happened here was millions of times brutal than what is happening in Palestine and for which I think Arabs are mainly responsible. They tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews and failed. What would they have done if they had won? What should they expect when they were crushed?

Why expect others to behave better than yourself?

Now Indian or subcontinental Muslims have nothing to do with those brutish thugs but you don't really expect us to look at those who consider those brutes as their heroes with any sympathy.

May be it is the chickens coming home to roost. The Karmaa cycle.

A very small refresher of how Hindus look at the events, by an objective Pakistani (a rare species I must say).

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

After all, none other than Nelson Mandela equated the two.

Would Nelson Mandel have approved of the treatment of minorities in your own country, the ethnic cleansing and the organized denial of freedom of religion? Don't try to borrow credibility by throwing names!

Israel uses the Palestinian terror as an excuse for its brutality. It's a vicious circle and the Israelis, being the ones in power, can end it immediately by allowing the Palestinians refugees to return to their homes in Israel.

And you are sure that this will end the violence? Why not start with returning what was taken from the victims of ethnic cleansing in your own country.

Return what you snatched from them (that would include the whole of Lahore, most of agricultural prime lands in Punjab and most of the trade).

Or that would be off-topic? You just want to bash others, not because you care for any rules but because of your innate hatred for others.

In the case of India, there are allegations, by Indians, that random Muslims get harassed every time some terror scare occurs. Now I am not saying that India is anti-Muslim, but there are certainly elements that use counter-terrorism as a cover to indulge in anti-Muslim bigotry.

Thanks for "not saying that India is anti-Muslim". We are touched.

Given that situation, and Israel's history, is it really the best country to ally with in fighting terrorism?

It is the best country in our judgment. Who else would you suggest?

Pakistan? USA? Who would you approve?

 

[Vinod2070]

Oh, by the way, the Israeli-Chinese co-operation began in early 80s. Embargo was imposed in 1989. You were saying...?

Facts don't matter. The excuses are just an afterthought.

To try and reinforce what has already been pre-determined for some other reasons.

But those real reasons must remain right behind an airtight closet. No one should see them.

Well, the closet doesn't work. It has a glass door.

 

[Developereo]

Let me tell you, those brutal invasions of the subcontinent have not been forgotten and they are still an open wound.

Rather than respond to your ongoing foaming rants, I will close the discussion with this most central of statements on your part.

You have demonstrated for everyone that there is a constituency in India whose support for Israel stems from their visceral hatred towards Muslims and Islam. You and your ilk are stuck in the ancient past -- unable to move past the old invasions. You guys hold India's -- indeed all -- Muslims hostage to the past, you callously refuse to acknowledge the equal suffering and loss of millions of Muslims during 1947, and you have scant regard for facts when they contradict your prejudices.

You are using this thread as a springboard for your pent-up Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan rants. I refuse to sink to your level and drag out the closets from India's history. The readers, including Indians, know they are there, but it would serve no useful purpose.

Nobody is denying that Muslim countries committed atrocities and there are human rights violations ongoing, as do/did other countries and religions, but none of that justifies what Israel is doing because they are not on that scale. We did not excuse apartheid in South Africa, or the situation in Darfur, because blacks in other countries are committing atrocities. Similarly, we didn't excuse the Holocaust because Jews did some atrocities in their past.

Bottom line: Israel is the only country on this planet that is keeping millions of peope as refugees solely because of their religion. The only comparable country is Sudan, because of people's ethnicity, and it is rightly condemned and isolated.

Nobody is talking about attacking and killing Israelis. The only solution is for the refugees to return to their homes and the issue of Jerusalem to be resolved. Everything else is just prolonging the conflict.

Now, it's one thing to have token diplomatic relations with Israel; it's quite another to actively supply them with arms and/or training which will be used directly against the Palestinian civilians.

 

[Vinod2070]

Rather than respond to your ongoing foaming rants, I will close the discussion with this most central of statements on your part.

You have demonstrated for everyone that there is a constituency in India whose support for Israel stems from their visceral hatred towards Muslims and Islam.

Your compulsive need to draw this interpretation doesn't mean anything. I have no hate for anyone because of what their ancestors did in our region.

I already clarified mine and India's position on this issue and your sanctimony doesn't mean anything, especially when it is so selective.

You and your ilk are stuck in the ancient past -- unable to move past the old invasions. You guys hold India's -- indeed all -- Muslims hostage to the past,

You failed to read this.

Now Indian or subcontinental Muslims have nothing to do with those brutish thugs

Subcontinental Muslims are mostly converts who suffered equally at the hands of those uncivilized brutish barbarians. I don't hold them responsible for anything that happened earlier.

BTW, what has India done that would equate to holding "India's -- indeed all -- Muslims hostage to the past"?

Israel-Palestine issue has nothing to do with India and India has played a bigger part in helping Palestine than almost any Islamic country.

you callously refuse to acknowledge the equal suffering and loss of millions of Muslims during 1947, and you have scant regard for facts when they contradict your prejudices.

I have never done that. It is you who continuously do it.

For the last time, India still has a very sizable and growing Muslim community with full legal equality and protection.

Now look at your country, almost totally ethnically cleaned at the first chance you got.

Then you have the gall to preach to others!

You are using this thread as a springboard for your pent-up Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan rants. I refuse to sink to your level and drag out the closets from India's history. The readers, including Indians, know they are there, but it would serve no useful purpose.

I have only replied to your continued hypocritical preaching and accusations of "anti-Islam" linkage to a mutually beneficial relationship that many of your own friends and allies also have.

And to your pretensions to moral superiority.

Nobody is denying that Muslim countries committed atrocities

I have never seen you own up to it. You always are in denial about it.

and there are human rights violations ongoing, as do/did other countries and religions,

Who said that justifies it. We were just discussing the Indo-Israel ties.

You always claim that the situation in Pakistan and Islamic countries is better than India and Western countries and when challenged with facts, accuse people of Islamophobia.

but none of that justifies what Israel is doing because they are not on that scale.

You want to discuss this really? Or would that again be Islamophobia?

We did not excuse apartheid in South Africa, or the situation in Darfur, because blacks in other countries are committing atrocities. Similarly, we didn't excuse the Holocaust because Jews did some atrocities in their past.

Darfur is one example where Arab Muslims committed horrible crimes against Africans (in a replay of what happened earlier on a much larger scale). I didn't see you or anyone from your country making any fuss.

Also, you need to understand that this is not to justify another wrong, it is just to expose your pretensions that you bring to the table.

Bottom line: Israel is the only country on this planet that is keeping millions of peope as refugees solely because of their religion. The only comparable country is Sudan, because of people's ethnicity, and it is rightly condemned and isolated.

So would you recommend that everyone should boycott Sudan because of the horrible atrocities by Arab Muslims there? Do you condemn China for aiding those atrocities by supplying arms and diplomatic support to the brutish regime.

These atrocities are on a much larger scale than in Palestine.

BTW, millions of people became refugees in India and Pakistan also during 1947. The only reason they are not in tents now is because they were accommodated by the other countries.

The Arabs could have done that as well. They chose not to.

Nobody is talking about attacking and killing Israelis. The only solution is for the refugees to return to their homes and the issue of Jerusalem to be resolved. Everything else is just prolonging the conflict.

Well, what solution finally works is for the leaders and the effected people to decide. We will support them in any peaceful solution.

Now, it's one thing to have token diplomatic relations with Israel; it's quite another to actively supply them with arms and/or training which will be used directly against the Palestinian civilians.

You earlier claimed that Israel can defeat Pakistan with just loose change after keeping enough for the Arabs.

You also claimed that Israel has nothing to gain from India that it can't gain from the West and your friend China (that was acceptable!).

Now you claim something totally different!

BTW, Israel are in a league if their own in handling terror.

You are hallucinating when you make the accusation that we "actively supply them with arms and/or training which will be used directly against the Palestinian civilians".

 

[Rafael]

Is it so? I didn't get this impression.

He seems to be a lone voice of sanity in a sea of extremism and fanaticism. Someone who keeps hopes about Pakistan alive along with people such as Edhi.

Frankly there are too many of the Hafiz Saeeds and too less of the Idhis and Hudbhoys in Pakistan. Much more are needed to turn the tide of intolerance sweeping the country.

Hi Vinod,

I can refute all the claims that he has made in that little paragraph that i quoted from your post initially, but then whats the use? Is Mr. Hoodbhoy going to correct himself? Is he going to ask for an apology? I don't think so.. Isn't it a little strange that even after RD has been exposed to be a CIA assassin, we have not heard anything from Dr. Hoodbhoy and his likes condemning Americans and CIA while he doesn't let goes any opportunity to bash Pakistan and Pakistanis? Forget about condemning, they have not even showed minimal decency to speak in support of those departed souls. This is why I don't consider them voices of sanity as you do and i call them American paid "analysts". Hope I have made myself clear.

 

[Vinod2070]

Hi Vinod,

I can refute all the claims that he has made in that little paragraph that i quoted from your post initially, but then whats the use? Is Mr. Hoodbhoy going to correct himself? Is he going to ask for an apology?

Please do that. On this thread or a new one if you want.

I will try to answer as best as I can.

These are his views but I agree with most of them based on my own observations.

I don't think so.. Isn't it a little strange that even after RD has been exposed to be a CIA assassin, we have not heard anything from Dr. Hoodbhoy and his likes condemning Americans and CIA while he doesn't let goes any opportunity to bash Pakistan and Pakistanis? Forget about condemning, they have not even showed minimal decency to speak in support of those departed souls. This is why I don't consider them voices of sanity as you do and i call them American paid "analysts". Hope I have made myself clear.

You have made yourself very clear.

However, I can't answer for Dr. Hudbhoy as to why he didn't speak on this Davis guy.

I would assume he doesn't write on every topic. Just those that are close to his heart.