What's new

Strange death of Sufism!

Is Sufism still dominant in Indonesia?

Indonesian Islam has two main stream,

first is

Muhammadiyah which is a mixed of Wahhabism and Islam Modernist ( modern schooling and stress on individual Ijtihad rather than just become fanatics on certain Ulama/Sect )

Second is

Nahdatul Ulama where Sufism is part of them, but NU doesnt teach Sufism in their Madrasah, only higher learning students who studied Sufism, but they acknowledge many Sufi Ulama like Junaid and others
 
.
Indonesian Islam has two main stream,

first is

Muhammadiyah which is a mixed of Wahhabism and Islam Modernist ( modern schooling and stress on individual Ijtihad rather than just become fanatics on certain Ulama/Sect )

Second is

Nahdatul Ulama where Sufism is part of them, but NU doesnt teach Sufism in their Madrasah, only higher learning students who studied Sufism, but they acknowledge many Sufi Ulama like Junaid and others
When did the Wahhabi cult hit the Indonesian shores?

1980s?
 
.
When did the Wahhabi cult hit the Indonesian shores?

1980s?

LOL Wahhabism in Indonesia is in its origin, long before the creation of Saudi Arabia. Muhammadiyah is a big organization, longer than Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt that influence many Arab countries. They are independent from Wahhabi in Saudi. The Ulama is in majority Professor, Phd, Master, and wear common dress
 
.
Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية, followers of Muhammad); also known as the Muhammadiyah Society (Indonesian: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is a major Islamic non-governmental organization in Indonesia.[2] The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and Sunnah, as opposed to Taqlid - conformity to the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[3]

It played an important role in the expansion of Salafism in Indonesia.[4] Since its establishment, Muhammadiyah has adopted a reformist platform mixing religious and secular education,[5] primarily as a way to promote the upward mobility of Muslims toward a 'modern' community and to purify Indonesian Islam of local syncretic practices.[5] It continues to support local culture and promote religious tolerance in Indonesia, while a few of its higher education institutions are attended mostly by non-Muslims, especially in East Nusa Tenggara and Papua provinces. The group also runs a large chain of charity hospitals,[2] and operated 128 universities as of the late 1990s.[6]

In 2008, Muhammadiyah was considered the second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia with 29 million members.[3] Although Muhammadiyah leaders and members are often actively involved in shaping the politics in Indonesia, Muhammadiyah is not a political party. It has devoted itself to social and educational activities.


Example of University own by Muhammadiyah

 
.
I think you probably mean the opposite of pragmatism. As all sects, Salafism is ideological. I don't think they allow for the interpretion of the Quran in the context of other cultures and civilizations and for modern times, which is what we need.

Some of their objections regarding shirk beliefs and practices are valid while others aren't. We need to be careful not to confuse cultural practises which may symbolize respect and love as idolatry.

The main problem is Salafism's stated ideology is to follow the followers of the Prophet from the first three generations. This makes it practically early medieval Arab by culture, and it causes rage, extremism, and terrorism in modern times. Besides, it makes little sense to emulate a big group of people, most of whom are unknown, and who are no longer present among us.

We have the standard to follow. It is the Quran, which is called the Furqan, establishing the Criteria of Judgement with examples from the lives of our Prophet, other Prophets, and righteous people.
With all due respect, Salafism can't work even in the 7th century. Study the Rasidun Caliphate you will find how unbelievably tolerant the rightly guided caliphs were even for modern times.
 
.
With due respect to everyones opinion and madhabs in islam, with advancement of science sufi mysticism cant answer questions that Salafis can. If you look at religious debates between us and christian missionaries, athists or jews, you will see what kind of questions we face and it will be very difficult to answer with mysticism in this age of science.
I follow debates of Adnan Rashid, ustad Seikh Uthman on youtube, a great watch, both originated from pakistan but great debaters and scholars on comparative religion.

You will find salafie movement are more evidence based and try to follow the roots of islams as it tries to follow what sahabies did or noted that later saints or imams so appealing to masses. So with information availability to more people like me are moving towards the core.

Allah only gave us one religion and madhabs are openions of great imams and hope it all brings us to jannah.

Why have Salafi interpretations coincided with generally poor scientific output and technological innovation (that is, societies and nations where conservative and literalist interpretations reign supreme)?

The issue is that Sufism isn't a singular creed. It is a living, evolving conception of internal cultivation. Any Sufi forcing mystical or esoteric explanations onto things that have been explained by science already is an idiot. Many of the greatest Sufis had no issue with the rational sciences. In deed, many American top scientists (e.g., in the space program) believed in the occult. Similarly, many of the world's greatest physicists have been quite spiritual (in different ways).

Finally the Salafi or Salafi-inspired concept and practice of takfeer is just ridiculous. Constantly worrying about and judging others ruins the entire essence of Islam. These ideologies are also responsible for the vast majority of terror attacks that have killed innocent civilians. Wahabbism particularly was essentially a tool of political control. It was exported to do the same. If Muslims can just stop worrying about whether what their neighbor is doing is "bid'a" or not and instead focus on improving themselves spiritually without becoming judge-y weirdos, we may again discover the tolerance (of ideas, rationalism, etc.) that can unlock growth and development.
 
.
LOL Wahhabism in Indonesia is in its origin, long before the creation of Saudi Arabia. Muhammadiyah is a big organization, longer than Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt that influence many Arab countries. They are independent from Wahhabi in Saudi. The Ulama is in majority Professor, Phd, Master, and wear common dress
Check the history before Ibn Abdul wahab najdi birth. I guarantee no sign of salafis or wahabis in Indonesia. Al Nahda Tul Ulema is sunni sufi movement in Indonesia, i have alot of respect for them.
 
.
Check the history before Ibn Abdul wahab najdi birth. I guarantee no sign of salafis or wahabis in Indonesia. Al Nahda Tul Ulema is sunni sufi movement in Indonesia, i have alot of respect for them.

Wahhabi birth is in Saudi, but Wahhabi itself is just similar like Ibnu Taimiyah teaching. Ibnu Taimiyah is much older than Wahhabi.

What I mean is that Muhammadiyah does get inspired by Wahhabism from Saudi, but Saudi as nation is emerged since 1932, while Muhammadiyah birth is 1927.

Wahhabi that we saw Today has linked to the Kingdom of Saudi, as well as Wahabi movement that happen in modern days usually they are favors Saudi ( I see my friends who follow Wahabi from this Saudi roots )

But Muhammadiyah that also uses Salafi ( Wahabi) teaching doesnt have the link with Wahhabi movement in Saudi after Saudi as a state is emerge.

Muhammadiyah is not fanatic follower, they see good thing from Wahhabi ( which is basically not different with Ibnu Taimiyah teaching -Salafi ), and also mixing it with Islam Modernist movement that also happen in Muslim world at that time. They become independent
 
.
People need to understand there is a different between Aqeeda/belief and Fiqh and other opinions. The aqeedah in Allah almighty, Holy Prophet peace be upon him etc cannot be changed. The modern movements try to ignore the early Islam and try to invent their own ideas of a new modern Islam. However with their tongue they claim we follow early Islam, they make major mistakes in the Quran and Hadith translations and then claim we follow Quran and Sunnah. If you compare their translations, after 10odd years they keep coming with new meanings and suddenly their beliefs change.

The Sunni Sufis have centuries old Quran and Hadith translations, its called classical Islam. I believe all Muslims need to follow classical Islam when we were the one of the strongest powers of the world. But no these modern movements chose to ignore all history and then come out with new translations of the quran with major mistakes.

This is like orthodox Christians v Catholics v Church of England situation. The Salafis wahabis are the Protestants. A modern reformist movement which disagrees with the classical Islam, they translate Quran and Hadith according to their needs and twist everything to suit themselves. A religious political movement which will toe any line to reach power. From terrorism and kufr fatwas against the Ottomans to fake jihad (terrorism), to alliance with the British.

The sunni sufis only make mistakes on their actions like being lazy, not being organised, following fake rituals, have alot of jahil followers who are not religious. The Salafis have educated people practising contract marriages, holiday marriages, fighting wars for the west etc.

Wahhabi birth is in Saudi, but Wahhabi itself is just similar like Ibnu Taimiyah teaching. Ibnu Taimiyah is much older than Wahhabi.

What I mean is that Muhammadiyah does get inspired by Wahhabism from Saudi, but Saudi as nation is emerged since 1932, while Muhammadiyah birth is 1927.

Wahhabi that we saw Today has linked to the Kingdom of Saudi, as well as Wahabi movement that happen in modern days usually they are favors Saudi ( I see my friends who follow Wahabi from this Saudi roots )

But Muhammadiyah that also uses Salafi ( Wahabi) teaching doesnt have the link with Wahhabi movement in Saudi after Saudi as a state is emerge.

Muhammadiyah is not fanatic follower, they see good thing from Wahhabi ( which is basically not different with Ibnu Taimiyah teaching -Salafi ), and also mixing it with Islam Modernist movement that also happen in Muslim world at that time
I understand what your saying. The Ahle Hadith and Deobandis emerged in Pakistan before Saudi Arabia. But read about the birth of Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi, the holy jihad against ottomans, declaring ummah as mushrikeen, the first saudi state etc. So the movement is there before Saudi Arabia.

Al Muhammadiyah is like the MB or Jamat e Islami of Pakistan. They are university educated modernist people, who go with the flow. If tomorrow a new powerful religious movement emerges then they will start to follow them. They go where the gold is.

Ibn Taymiyah was a sufi but he made some mistakes on certain issues. Read the books he wrote on sufism, he talks about miracles of the sufis and believes in them. The wahabis translate his books but take out which they don't like, they have the petro dollars. They also translate old qurans but take out which they don't like. They have absolutely nothing to do with the early Islam.
 
Last edited:
.
People need to understand there is a different between Aqeeda/belief and Fiqh and other opinions. The aqeedah in Allah almighty, Holy Prophet peace be upon him etc cannot be changed. The modern movements try to ignore the early Islam and try to invent their own ideas of a new modern Islam. However with their tongue they claim we follow early Islam, they make major mistakes in the Quran and Hadith translations and then claim we follow Quran and Sunnah. If you compare their translations, after 10odd years they keep coming with new meanings and suddenly their beliefs change.

The Sunni Sufis have centuries old Quran and Hadith translations, its called classical Islam. I believe all Muslims need to follow classical Islam when we were the one of the strongest powers of the world. But no these modern movements chose to ignore all history and then come out with new translations of the quran with major mistakes.

This is like orthodox Christians v Catholics v Church of England situation. The Salafis wahabis are the Protestants. A modern reformist movement which disagrees with the classical Islam, they translate Quran and Hadith according to their needs and twist everything to suit themselves. A religious political movement which will toe any line to reach power. From terrorism and kufr fatwas against the Ottomans to fake jihad (terrorism), to alliance with the British.

The sunni sufis only make mistakes on their actions like being lazy, not being organised, following fake rituals, have alot of jahil followers who are not religious. The Salafis have educated people practising contract marriages, holiday marriages, fighting wars for the west etc.


I understand what your saying. The Ahle Hadith and Deobandis emerged in Pakistan before Saudi Arabia. But read about the birth of Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi, the holy jihad against ottomans, declaring ummah as mushrikeen, the first saudi state etc. So the movement is there before Saudi Arabia.

Al Muhammadiyah is like the MB or Jamat e Islami of Pakistan.

Ibn Taymiyah was a sufi but he made some mistakes on certain issues. Read the books he wrote on sufism, he talks about miracles of the sufis and believes in them. The wahabis translate his books but take out which they don't like, they have the petro dollars. They also translate old qurans but take out which they don't like. They have absolutely nothing to do with the early Islam.

What is important is to keep Muslim tolerant, interpretation of Quran and Hadith will some what create different is human nature as man/women has different in intellectuality and also each person has different in understanding of Quran and Hadith, this is why tolerance is the main point here.


.
 
.
What is important is to keep Muslim tolerant, interpretation of Quran and Hadith will some what create different is human nature as man/women has different in intellectuality and also each person has different in understanding of Quran and Hadith, this is why tolerance is the main point here.


.
I agree we should be tolerant. When wahabi movement emerged the Ottomans stayed quiet but then Wahabi Ikhwan attacked Madina in 1818. This is when ottomans send army to kill them. Then these same people harmed ottomans during WW1 and created Saudia. Then spread their isis ideology all over the world and when people rejected them they turned to terrorism. They caused sectarian violence in majority muslim countries. The problem is they get funding from foreign sources to brainwash people, and when other movements/groups get offended then people play the tolerant card.

In Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Turkey/ Afghanistan the Najdis who disrespect holy Prophet peace be upon him will never be accepted. We have our mistakes and jahalat, we know that but our belief on Allah almighty, Prophet peace be upon him, the blessed Sahaba Ra, HouseHold of Prophet PBUH, Awliyah Allah AS will never be compromised. This is not our Islam but the classical Sunni Islam. People only need to read and research about it rather than blind follow the wahabi movements.

The interpretation of the Quran and Hadith should be in allign with the classical Islam. Otherwise we could change Islam however we want to. Yes some modern meaning are given, we all accept that but if Quran mentions Holy Prophet peace be upon him is the last messenger, then we cannot give it a new meaning and say nope it doesn't mean no Prophet can come after him etc. My point people and groups twist the meanings to confuse the ummah.
 
.
When did the Wahhabi cult hit the Indonesian shores?

1980s?

You see u are a pathetic moron because in a religious and sectarian thread u use the words like cult. This shows u dont have intention to debate or learn but to do typical propaganda. You mist be disappointed because most here think sufism is wrong, so should we call it a cult? So u disnt find much support for ur shirkia cult?
 
.
I agree we should be tolerant. When wahabi movement emerged the Ottomans stayed quiet but then Wahabi Ikhwan attacked Madina in 1818. This is when ottomans send army to kill them. Then these same people harmed ottomans during WW1 and created Saudia. Then spread their isis ideology all over the world and when people rejected them they turned to terrorism. They caused sectarian violence in majority muslim countries. The problem is they get funding from foreign sources to brainwash people, and when other movements/groups get offended then people play the tolerant card.

In Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Turkey/ Afghanistan the Najdis who disrespect holy Prophet peace be upon him will never be accepted. We have our mistakes and jahalat, we know that but our belief on Allah almighty, Prophet peace be upon him, the blessed Sahaba Ra, HouseHold of Prophet PBUH, Awliyah Allah AS will never be compromised. This is not our Islam but the classical Sunni Islam. People only need to read and research about it rather than blind follow the wahabi movements.

The interpretation of the Quran and Hadith should be in allign with the classical Islam. Otherwise we could change Islam however we want to. Yes some modern meaning are given, we all accept that but if Quran mentions Holy Prophet peace be upon him is the last messenger, then we cannot give it a new meaning and say nope it doesn't mean no Prophet can come after him etc. My point people and groups twist the meanings to confuse the ummah.

I can understand ur views because of idolizing ottomans but u have to study their end as well. Ottomans in the end were not the ones like muhammad fateh or the initial ones, they had become mushrik and biddatis. There used to be 4 separate jamaats in kaaba, in the holy place they divided ppl. Its the reason Allah took away the holy places from their control.
 
.
Thread about Sufism with no actual understanding nor narration of the origin of tasawwuf in general and how it evolved in the subcontinent. All focus on Shrines, local customs and sectarian hatred.. ah.. Pakistan
 
.
I can understand ur views because of idolizing ottomans but u have to study their end as well. Ottomans in the end were not the ones like muhammad fateh or the initial ones, they had become mushrik and biddatis. There used to be 4 separate jamaats in kaaba, in the holy place they divided ppl. Its the reason Allah took away the holy places from their control.
استغفراللہ. How can you call them Mushriks/Kafirs. Brother you should calm down with using words like Mushriks, Shirk. No offence.

I can give you a long list of wahabi/salafi mistakes, am talking about mistakes which would be classified as Shirk, kufr. People are sharing videos of dodgy sufis but YouTube is full of salafi/wahabi jahil acts aswell. Trust me you would end up calling everybody as bidatis and shirkiya lol.

Thread about Sufism with no actual understanding nor narration of the origin of tasawwuf in general and how it evolved in the subcontinent. All focus on Shrines, local customs and sectarian hatred.. ah.. Pakistan
This is the problem. People don't even pray but end up going Darbars lol. Islam starts from the basics and visiting graves is sunnah, the real darbars/dargah/maqaam/zawawiyah etc is supposed to be grave of Islamic scholars whom you visit for salaam, dua, esal e sawaab. Your ulema/teachers are like parents in Islam. This was the main reason but people haven't got the clue who they are but end up doing it as a ritual. Jahil, they dont follow the ulema commands but visit their graves because it has become a ritual. Then again in the modern life people couldn't care less about the living, never mind the dead.
 
.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom