Stop maligning the military

[Rafi]

You so-called Pakistani's disgust me, you don't deserve a professional patriotic army, I have been to many funerals of young men, just boys - who have given their all to their country, and to have fifth columnists like you lot, is like someone spitting on their grave.

The reason the army suffers is because of it's discipline, it follows orders - whether it agrees with them or not, I have been on this site for a while and it appears to me, with it's indian friends and traitors to be the antithesis of what it portrays itself to be. Pakdef is professional because it does not wallow in pathetic conspiracy theories.

Finally I will always be on the side of the terrific men and women, who have abandoned potentially lucrative civilian careers, and some of them coming from wealthy families - who could enjoy a life of luxury, who have decided to go through the hardships of a military career, they allow you malignants to whine and complain, and let a nation of a 180 million people sleep at night.

Pathetic, every last one of you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Excellent points, the politicians are as much to be blamed for the current crisis of political will in the country as the military.

But pray explain the chain of events preceding the 2008 elections? Pakistan has been targeted via drones since 2004 and not 2008. Why wasn't PAF shooting them down then, instead of sharing AFBs with them? As of now, Pakistan Army has been given access to live video feeds from drones on strike missions, it's our sleuths on the ground in most instances which provide target information for the drones.

And in case you remember it well, the very first drone strike that resulted in a huge (80+) causality count in Bajaur area was actually owned by Pakistan Army (suggesting that it were their gunship helicopters which took out that particular madrassah). Only to be proven false later.

A reporter who had earlier pictured bits and pieces of a hellfire missile and sent it to the international media, after Pakistanis owned a drone strike, calling it their gun-ship attack on an Al-Qaeda member - was later picked up and killed.

Were it the politicians who asked the Pakistan Army to own drone strikes on behalf of the CIA?

Are you in any way suggesting that Pakistan Army has had absolutely no say in how Pakistan's role in war on terror is shaping up? Is it all because of the politicians?

When Asif Ali Zardari or Nawaz Sharif or any other politician for that matter met US authorities, under prevailing circumstances around R. Davis's arrest - the first news in Pakistan and/or on most defense related boards was that they have sold out Pakistan. So why cry foul when army is judged similarly? Isn't that what you ask people to do? Not judge them alone but along with rest of the culprits?

Since the Army was running the country under Musharraf pre-2008 elections, blame them for what happened during Musharraf's regime.

Since an elected government is running the country since 2008, blame the elected representatives for what has happened since then, unless you can conclusively show that the Army forced them to adopt a certain position.

Whoever runs the government takes responsibility.

The PPP/Zardari position on drone strikes is clear, as is the fact that their position is not under coercion from the Army:

Some ”revelations” are less surprising, such as Zardari’s government signing off on controversial drone attacks while simultaneously condemning them as a breach of sovereignty, confirming analysts’ suspicions. "I don't care if they do it as long as they get the right people. We'll protest in the National Assembly and then ignore it,” he was quoted as saying in a cable.

Zardari’s political opponents may find it hard to extract mileage from the revelations, however. Opposition leader Mr. Sharif, who plays on anti-Americanism to cement his base with the Pakistani right, repeatedly reassured Ambassador Patterson of his “pro-American” credentials in a February 2008 cable. And according to the Guardian newspaper, Maulana Fazlur Rehman, leader of the country’s largest Islamist party, hosted a dinner for the ambassador where he solicited her backing for becoming prime minister, and made it clear that his votes were “up for sale.”​

As the above revelation makes clear, the PPP is now responsible for the drone strikes, since it is running the government.

As for the R. Davis issue, mind sharing how were the two other men, responsible for a hit and run, while trying to reach Davis able to escape Pakistan? I know it as well as any serious reader in here, that when it comes to intel ops, ECL is not the only list that can stop people from traveling out of Pakistan.

And did the PPP or PML-N utilize these 'other means' to stop the guilty individuals from escaping? The point of mentioning this?

How Fazal-e-Hayat (Fazlullah) escaped to Kunnar, Afghanistan - which shares no physical border with the valley of Swat, after being reported by ISPR to have been injured and surrounded for about 3/4 weeks?

Yes he escaped and continues to be sheltered in Afghanistan - your point? OBL escaped after being 'surrounded' in Tora Bora as well. Escape does not equate treachery by those hunting him.

Why is it that the Army suddenly loses its voice (per certain opinion makers here) when it comes to issues such as WOT and Pakistan's role in it (giving an impression that it's entirely the politicians who run the show) but suddenly finds it again when Kerry Lugur aid bill suggests that flow of money will be controlled by civilians and that Army will give an undertaking to not to subvert the civilian government? Remember the ruckus around that?

On the KLB, the PPP defended the bill despite the Army opposing it, and it went through. That does not remove the PPP from being primarily repsonsible for both the KLB and the Davis issue.

Would you like to revisit the arrest of Mullah Bradar in Karachi, and tell if the JSOC SpecOp team that pinpointed his exact location to ISI, was not the exact type of team operating out of Lahore, of which R. Davis was a part? Smoke and mirrors!

We have nothing but speculation about the circumstances around Davis's arrest, and there is nothing to indicate that the team the ISI was working with in the Baradar case was the same as some alleged team that Davis was working with.

In any case - the relevance of this to the PPP/PML-N releasing Davis?

People of Pakistan do not question Pakistan Army because it is an instrument of policy, but because it is - whether anyone likes it or not - very much the maker of that policy (and that process didn't begin yesterday but has been going on since 1958 'SEATO/CENTO', U2 flights out of Peshawar et al). You can choose not to see it, but that's entirely your prerogative.

The people of Pakistan then need to change. If they want representative democracy, they cannot look to the Army for 'policy making' and 'fixing the country'. They need to hold their elected leaders accountable, and their elected leaders need to let their constituents know when they have disagreements with the Army, such as over the KLB. That way, the people can see whether or not the Army is pushing through policy, or their elected leaders are.

IN the Davis case, it is clear that the PPP/PML-N supported his release, and the Army did not coerce them, so they take primary responsibility as the elected representatives running the government, as does the PPP in the case of the drone attacks post 2008.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How much longer do you need for that... If you had let the Tribals do it, they would ve done that by now... by themselves...

Total BS. The tribals were getting their arses handed to them by the IA in 1947 until the PA came into the fight officially and not only retained ground but also gained back some of the ground the tribals had lost.

Modern warfare is not about crazy, doped up warriors leading blind charges on 'Jazba' alone.

But if you want to wallow in fantasies like this and some 'Khilafa', please continue deluding yourself.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Fact vs. speculation


Speculation:
The last deadly drone strike on tribal elders meeting to resolve a land dispute out in the open would have been coordinated by GHQ but they are not openly admitting it. Because normally drone strikes only happen from ground intelligence provided by Pakistani forces.


Fact:
The drones were operated and controlled by Americans. Americans fired multiple hellfire missiles on tribal elders who had nothing to do with Taliban and were in fact been targets of Taliban in the past. It was Americans who actually not only killed the tribesmen who had actually risen against the Taliban but this strike also killed the police officials. The terrorist know better not to gather in huge numbers out in the open if they don’t want to get attacked. These people had no reason to fear the drones
But the fact is, sadly that their confidence was misplaced and the Americans mercilessly killed them. Just because they didn’t care who was their target or it was an indirect message to Pakistan for holding up their under cover agent.


The critics of Pakistan Army always make two statements regarding done strikes and both are contradictory to each other but just for the sake of criticism and show their hate they use either one of the statements to their convenience.

1. Pakistan army is not doing enough so the CIA has to find and eliminate the Taliban that are attacking the NATO forces in Afghanistan.
2. these done strikes cant happen with out the approval and/ or help from Pakistan army specially the ground intelligence needed to locate and identify the target is only possible through the help of ISI/ Pakistan army. so their criticism is wrong.


the point I am making is if some ANALysts and governments have essentially decided to criticise Pakistan no matter what then whatever we do will be seen negatively.

The worse part is, that these people from outside Pakistan will continue to ignore the human tragedy in the latest attack.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Total BS. The tribals were getting their arses handed to them by the IA in 1947 until the PA came into the fight officially and not only retained ground but also gained back some of the ground the tribals had lost.

Modern warfare is not about crazy, doped up warriors leading blind charges on 'Jazba' alone.

But if you want to wallow in fantasies like this and some 'Khilafa', please continue deluding yourself.

Dont bring your rant against Khilafah in this... I m being sarcastic...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Fact vs. speculation


Speculation:
The last deadly drone strike on tribal elders meeting to resolve a land dispute out in the open would have been coordinated by GHQ but they are not openly admitting it. Because normally drone strikes only happen from ground intelligence provided by Pakistani forces.


Fact:
The drones were operated and controlled by Americans. Americans fired multiple hellfire missiles on tribal elders who had nothing to do with Taliban and were in fact been targets of Taliban in the past. It was Americans who actually not only killed the tribesmen who had actually risen against the Taliban but this strike also killed the police officials. The terrorist know better not to gather in huge numbers out in the open if they don’t want to get attacked. These people had no reason to fear the drones
But the fact is, sadly that their confidence was misplaced and the Americans mercilessly killed them. Just because they didn’t care who was their target or it was an indirect message to Pakistan for holding up their under cover agent.


The critics of Pakistan Army always make two statements regarding done strikes and both are contradictory to each other but just for the sake of criticism and show their hate they use either one of the statements to their convenience.

1. Pakistan army is not doing enough so the CIA has to find and eliminate the Taliban that are attacking the NATO forces in Afghanistan.
2. these done strikes cant happen with out the approval and/ or help from Pakistan army specially the ground intelligence needed to locate and identify the target is only possible through the help of ISI/ Pakistan army. so their criticism is wrong.


the point I am making is if some ANALysts and governments have essentially decided to criticise Pakistan no matter what then whatever we do will be seen negatively.

The worse part is, that these people from outside Pakistan will continue to ignore the human tragedy in the latest attack.

I take it that your comment is about the Indians here...

For us its basically the same request from the very first day... Stop these drone attacks... enough is enough... they are damaging Pakistan and dragging it into civil war...

 

[kursed]

Rafi - Not everything is a conspiracy theory. And please, there is no reason for you to go holier than thou. Otherwise every single time a generalissimo kicks the constitution of Pakistan out of the window and takes it upon himself to rule, he's kicking the graves of a million plus people who died in their struggle to get to Pakistan. They were all civilians.

And please, let me also set the record straight on the war on terror front. More civilians have died in this war, than all of the casualties suffered by army combined (injured/shaheed). So please, next time you wish to go holier than thou on Pakistanis, try something else.

So very typical to brand anyone who questions your actions, as a traitor. That saves you from answering the questions.

Since the Army was running the country under Musharraf pre-2008 elections, blame them for what happened during Musharraf's regime.

Thanks for agreeing to that part. No one is discounting the civilian government of their share of the blame, they are to be blamed for the entire fiasco. Albeit my opinion on the release of R. Davis is in sharp contrast with populist opinion. He would have been released one way or the other. There is nothing that the Pakistan army or the Civilian government could have done about it. Both of them are tied at the heels when it comes to dealing with the US both economically and in defense.

But this could have been done in a much proper way instead, that is, without inciting the masses. That incitement bit will be responsible for agitating people into picking up arms, and we will have no one but ourselves to be blamed for it.

What I was trying to point out in my post was the fact that you're being a tad myopic but only calling out the civilians and not trying to see the whole picture. Hence the example of KLB, while it did go through, it only happened after changes were made to it - according to the wishes of Pakistan Army.

The PPP/Zardari position on drone strikes is clear, as is the fact that their position is not under coercion from the Army

Absolutely agreed on that point.

And did the PPP or PML-N utilize these 'other means' to stop the guilty individuals from escaping? The point of mentioning this?

As mentioned above, PPP and PML N were on board with the release of Davis. What I am pointing at in that post is the fact that the entire deal was not about simply killing of two Pakistani men. And that ISI wasn't entirely unaware of his status in Pakistan, as they made it look like afterwards.

Yes he escaped and continues to be sheltered in Afghanistan - your point? OBL escaped after being 'surrounded' in Tora Bora as well. Escape does not equate treachery by those hunting him.

Did OBL manage to escape out of Afghanistan? Because in this instance, Fazal-e-Hayat did mange to escape out of Pakistan into Afghanistan, with which the valley of Swat has no physical boundary. And that too after being declared surrounded and injured. Feel free to disagree, but given how the entire thing played out, I beg to disagree.

We have nothing but speculation about the circumstances around Davis's arrest, and there is nothing to indicate that the team the ISI was working with in the Baradar case was the same as some alleged team that Davis was working with.

That's only according to people who do not want to question the circumstances surrounding this incident. Just do a little bit of research on JSOC ops inside Pakistan, their history since 2006 and you'll see where I'm coming from.

The people of Pakistan then need to change. If they want representative democracy, they cannot look to the Army for 'policy making' and 'fixing the country'.

No one looks at the army to devise policy, they've considered it their God-given right since 1958. As for why hasn't their authority been challenged so far, well for one they're the ones with arms. And secondly civilians too have had their faults. We have almost never been able to recover from the utter destruction of Pakistan's entire political capital (of people who made Pakistan) during Ayub's era.

They need to hold their elected leaders accountable, and their elected leaders need to let their constituents know when they have disagreements with the Army, such as over the KLB. That way, the people can see whether or not the Army is pushing through policy, or their elected leaders are.

Absolutely, that's the only way things can improve in Pakistan.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Perhaps people who speak in defence of Fauj need to answer one small question...

It has been 60 years that Fauj has not won against India over the issue of Kashmir... why?

How much longer do you need for that... If you had let the Tribals do it, they would ve done that by now... by themselves...

please keep the debate serious
do read about Raja Aziz Bhatti when you get a moment.. dont talk from where the sun never shines

 

[Rain]

please keep the debate serious
do read about Raja Aziz Bhatti when you get a moment.. dont talk from where the sun never shines

His question is rude but unfortunatle has some substance in it! Better come up with something logical to awnser, dont play emotional games, Bhatti and thousand like bhatti are our heros, they deserve respect their sacrifices are not for point scoring.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric:

If the Pak Fauj cannot defend Pakistan, then perhaps it might not lead Pakistan into one disaster after another

How would you define 'defending Pakistan' in the present scenario? Would it mean a total annihilation of miscreants from entire FATAistan without displacing the civilian populace, without suffering casualties, without getting over stretched and without lowering our guard on the eastern side? If yes, then i must declare that we indeed have defended Pakistan very well.

-- It is amazing that those for whom the Pakistani nation sacrifices so much,

Sacrifice for who, us? No my dear. The Nation sacrifices itself for Pakistan Steel, PIA and the likes of WAPDA whom it pays from their hard earned money so that they can make up their losses which easily amount to billion of rupees each year. On the other hand for the Army the sacrifices are there but then they are not enough. Spending 17% of national budget on a defence force that is actively committed in the west and is likely to be committed in th east without warning doesnt exactly fall under a 'sacrifice'. Or may be i need to remind the expenditure the ISAF had borne since they entered Afg.

feel no sense of shame, in instructing Pakistanis that they must swallow it

Shame for what? Suffering causalities and still listening to tannas?

Yes, you people have to swallow it, or else you can understand the complexities and keep mum.

-- How much more can the Pakistani nation take at the hands of those whose mission, whose sworn duty, is to protect Pakistan and Pakistanis

i guess, a little more. Just another 2 years. We'll see how much you people have learnt from the PPP govt. The next govt that you people are going to elect would tell us how more the Pakistani Nation has to suffer.

-- One wonders how it was that Vietnam was able to make a impression on the US -- but you lot are so lazy that you do not even want to consider it, well, Army will sell the "Hate India" line and for the most part Pakistanis will find that it's better to be anti-India, but not pro-Pakistan.

Without reference argument.

So do us a favor you loyal only to yourselves Fauj, just don't create anymore problems for us, and since you can be a solution for us, you no longer have the right to squeeze us for more sacrifices, and if someone or some entity other than the Pakistan state is paying for your weapons and salaries and pensions, we need to know about it.

Luckily there are men and women who are ready to pay for whatever 'luxuries' we enjoy 24/7. So feel free to withdraw your support. We have survived without it in the past and we would do the same this time also.

Amazing that oaths can be forfeit in the face of the very idea that this Fauj may actually have to fight and win - that's right, win, something it has in it's entire history, been unable to do.

Musey, you seriously need to revisit the definition of this 'win' word.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

please keep the debate serious
do read about Raja Aziz Bhatti when you get a moment.. dont talk from where the sun never shines

Irfan Bhai... I am being serious... Dont you think that the things that are happening in our country, the Shuhadah of our Army like the noble Major you mentioned, what was their sacrifice for?? Did Aziz Bhatti give his life for a Pakistan that be ruled by people like Zardari??

and we actually lost that 1965 war in negotiations when our soldiers had won it in the battlefield... I would never taunt our boys with such a thing, but you have to admit that we have reached a dead end... It is time that everyone of us start asking serious questions about where we plan to go from here...

let us show the world that we have dignity and give us a reason to stand proud amongst the nations of the world... and no I m not talking about a victory in a cricket match!!! I m not talking about nuclear weapons that cannot stop constant drone attacks against our people... This one guy was telling me recently that he will introduce me to the Lions of Pakistan Army... those who have actually fought in wars and I would become proud to hear them talk about their experiences... and I told him that I have heard it all and most certainly I m proud... but where are such Lions today... Are these Lions in a cage or something?? Tell these Lions of Pak Army to come out now and right the wrongs done to this nation... otherwise we have plenty of Lions in the zoo and have no use for them other than entertainment...

 

[Xeric]

With that response it's not any wonder the Fauj has never won anything in it's entire history.

First you guys cannot fight but then you insist on taking a pangah with everyone - why? Is it because the only thing the Fauj has gotten used to doing is politics?

^^ Musey, is it sarcasm taking over you?

No guud!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I want to win the hearts and minds of my brothers in Pakistan Army... not a penny do I desire from anyone... the only thing the Lions of our Army need is sincere thinking...

and I m just having a great time on this forum... My friends in Pakistan actually speak directly to Pakistan military... We will keep speaking to our brothers and uncles and cousins until we get the change we desire...

It can happen... see here...

General supports demonstrators in Yemen

 

[Irfan Baloch]

His question is rude but unfortunatle has some substance in it! Better come up with something logical to awnser, dont play emotional games, Bhatti and thousand like bhatti are our heros, they deserve respect their sacrifices are not for point scoring.

what other logical answer you want my dear? want to derail the topic where I start listing the fight since 1948 . tatwal, chumb, Madarpur, kail, bhimber ? I only gave one name so he gets the hint and reads more before making such statement. there is nothing emotional and point scoring about Aziz Bhatti, he was a Pakistani officer (and it s called FACT not point scoring) and achieved glory without the help of throat slitting taliban.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

what other logical answer you want my dear? want to derail the topic where I start listing the fight since 1948 . tatwal, chumb, Madarpur, kail, bhimber ? I only gave one name so he gets the hint and reads more before making such statement. there is nothing emotional and point scoring about Aziz Bhatti, he was a Pakistani officer (and it s called FACT not point scoring) and achieved glory without the help of throat slitting taliban.

Let me get this right...

Did the Tribes fight in Kashmir? They did
Were the Tribes influenced by Taliban ideas? They were not
Are we still on the same side? We are...

Maaf kar do yaar... Ghalti ho gai Kashmir kee baat kar kay!!!