Stop maligning the military

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The question is Who will allow the rise of genuine political force! a genuine political force with strong roots in masses, leadership with character, integrity, dedication to do some thing for ppl of pakistan and pakistan is the need of the hour. But unfortunately such political force will never be allowed to grow up because of vested interests of Army, Feudals and Mullahs. Pakistani masses as to realise it that they were, they are being used as cosmatic dressing, no one is willing to share with them THE POWER!

I don't understand - how is the Army stopping the growth and expansion of a new political movement?

The feudals I can see, since they will clamp down on any one who challenges their authority in their area of influence, but almost 50% of Pakistan's population is now Urban, which means there is a huge number of Pakistanis who are not under the influence of feudals and can initiate, support and participate in a new political movement, especially with a very large, diverse and independent media.

I do think that your reasons for the lack of political options are just excuses to justify what can only be characterized as 'political laziness' on the part of many Pakistanis. It takes motivation, dedication and commitment to get a political movement off the ground, and I just don't think Pakistanis have committed themselves to doing that.

There needs to be a set of basic principles that almost everyone who wants change agrees to, and then conservatives, moderates and liberals can coalesce around those basic principles to launch a political movement for change. The more contentious issues will have to be left for later.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yaro Pakistan me "Gairat Brigade" phir action me aa gai hai. Well done gairat Brigade

I'm sorry, but what is that supposed to mean?

 

[Alla hoo]

AM, As a matter of fact I do know the backgrounds of all the individuals. I resent, you terming my opinion as trolling, when it is true to the core. I am out of here. Maybe PDF too.

As you are clearly trying to avoid awkward questions, answering which will clearly make your and others hypocracy, public. You could have replied (accept or deny) to it or ignored it

You, Xeric, Taimi khan (banker) everyone has his blood relative in Fauj. Jhooth mat bolo/ Sach mat chupao. Allah ko muh dikhana hai ek din.

Adios.

 

[Rank]

Thanks for you response Well about!

The perception of some e-warriors doesnt count. Still, ASRC's are jammed packed with volunteers. 17000 appeared in the ISSB in 2007, in 2008 the numbers were 30000, the numbers were 45000 in 2010.

I have seen many people who joinned Army behalf of their families. Secondly many students and people i have seen who joined Army because of "SECURE FUTURE" thats it. Even my many friends joined Army just because "thats the also solution to secure future because we dont have jobs in Pakistan" also we dont have much money to go for higher education outside the nation nor if we will have professional education we dont have jobs!

thats why now adays people joined Army

Secondly "I am not saying that Whole Army is like this" i just say top senior majority is doing everything which is not in favor of our nation thats it. Even i agreed on this point that either huge corruption inside Army still good people in our agencies and army. So i am talking about Majority in our Army is not doing favorable stuff for this nation. Just accept money from outside and fullfill there demands....

Thanks,

 

[Luftwaffe]

Stealth, I respect you and your thoughts and agony for Pakistan, I would to some extend agree that drone attacks are a deal between Govt/Army and US and Pakistan Army has given a zone to target them and recently Kayani has asked US to limit that zone.

Sir you are mixing many things taxes, and Govt governing that is totally out of Army's zone you've to contact and record your protest to them.
ISI is not justice league the tactics are different if you are thinking that every suicide attack would be stopped that is impossible, and i will not tell you. There are many other ops and counter ops ISI is performing of which you have no idea and nor will I enlighten you just get the idea.

Even i got angry at a point but then i had to reconsider and thought and the whole blame for what Pakistan's troubles is with Pakistani people and then political parties. You sir and other Pakistanis voted for these people and now take their wrath and punishment and i would not be surprised if the terrorists supporting nawaz comes in power next time because you people vote for same people again and again and points finger for every tom dick and harry trouble at Army. Please don't bring in ayub khan the work he has done for the poor masses cannot be forgotten, some anti ayub will come up and i damn care about them. where in the morning 5/6/7am soldiers are standing, it is their Job/duty whether they are with generals or colonels.

Lastly don't question the performance of Pak Army you have seen it in Swat and south Waziristan so there is no point in someone spouting bs at Army's performance. Sri Lanka has fought a long war against terrorism and external threats, its going to be long we'll do our best to come out of it if not in 30 years we'll be done with it in less then that time. Trust in Allah..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, As a matter of fact I do know the backgrounds of all the individuals. I resent, you terming my opinion as trolling, when it is true to the core. I am out of here. Maybe PDF too.

As you are clearly trying to avoid awkward questions, answering which will clearly make your and others hypocracy, public. You could have replied (accept or deny) to it or ignored it

You, Xeric, Taimi khan (banker) everyone has his blood relative in Fauj. Jhooth mat bolo/ Sach mat chupao. Allah ko muh dikhana hai ek din.

Adios.

Stop trolling - you do not know the backgrounds of the members here (or at least all of them) and therefore your comments were generalizations and attacks on members taking a particular position. Your claim that I have a 'blood member in the Fauj' for example is nothing but speculation, since I have never commented on that publicly, and do not intend to.

And you had no 'questions' in the posts that were deleted, merely rants. In fact I deleted one post asking you to provide justification for your claims and post in English - meaning you have every right to make those arguments again provided you justify them and post in English.

Your participation on this forum is your choice, so far your contributions are not exactly 'high quality' that will be sorely missed.

Cheers

 

[Rafi]

This is still probably the most viable and best organised institution in the country, we need to make other institutions strong, rather than run down the Pak Fauj. And the Army is still one of the most popular institutions - it's favorable rating in many polls is in the high 80's.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The question is Who will allow the rise of genuine political force! a genuine political force with strong roots in masses, leadership with character, integrity, dedication to do some thing for ppl of pakistan and pakistan is the need of the hour. But unfortunately such political force will never be allowed to grow up because of vested interests of Army, Feudals and Mullahs. Pakistani masses as to realise it that they were, they are being used as cosmatic dressing, no one is willing to share with them THE POWER!

this got to be the most retarded excuse I have seen so far. my apologies for being blunt but it’s the people who continue to be played and divided on the bases of ethnicities, sects and families. Now the Urban population makes up a sizable portion of the total electorate that can bring a change. But is it willing to get off its arse and challenge the status quo?

How naïve of you to blame the army when it was the lawyers who sent Musharaf packing. The suppression by the feudal lords and tribal chieftains is a fact but they were also overtaken by the Taliban who systemically eliminated the Maliks and influential families in Swat and tribal areas.
The Pakistani public knows a lot about complaining but suffers from memory loss and elects the same political elite after 2nd elections that it was cursing few governments back. You know the saying that a Momin is not stung twice from the same hole? Well in case of Gullible Pakistani population we are such a bunch of simpletons that we continue to get shafted by the same politicians again and again.

 

[Xeric]

Thanks for you response Well about!



I have seen many people who joinned Army behalf of their families. Secondly many students and people i have seen who joined Army because of "SECURE FUTURE" thats it. Even my many friends joined Army just because "thats the also solution to secure future because we dont have jobs in Pakistan" also we dont have much money to go for higher education outside the nation nor if we will have professional education we dont have jobs!

thats why now adays people joined Army,

Not exactly.

My actual reply to your post would be this video. The part between 1:12 to 1:21..

Anywaz, still...

You have rendered selection is the Army as if one wants to get admission in Allama Iqbal Open University. There are other better institutions in Pakistan where one can get his future secured and at the same time can skip the hardships of a professional military. Also getting into such institution is way easier than entering the military, believe me.

BTW, bara bol nahi bolna chaiye but then you have forced me to say this, i myself am a gold medalist in one of the subjects in FSc, i left one of the finest institution of this country against the will of my parents to join the military.

Who exactly are you kidding?!

May be you need to see the intake list of PMA, only then may be you can see that how many youngsters who can afford any type of education anywhere have joined the military. Ever wondered why would a Pakistan Cadet always manages to secure the first position at Sandhurst.

Secondly "I am not saying that Whole Army is like this" i just say top senior majority is doing everything which is not in favor of our nation thats it. Even i agreed on this point that either huge corruption inside Army still good people in our agencies and army. So i am talking about Majority in our Army is not doing favorable stuff for this nation. Just accept money from outside and fullfill there demands....

Thanks,

Strawman.

 

[Vinod2070]

He did not resign, he was fired by Zardari, and the PPP never contradicted his claims on what his stated position was on the Davis issue. In fact, Fauzia Wahab, a senior PPP leader considered very close to Zardari, came out with the exact position Qureshi said Zardari was pushing, after Qureshi's press conference.

When the PA has never given the policy making to the politicians, these are nothing but little games that don't change anything.

The PA's influence on foreign policy is irrelevant in the current situation given that the politicians wanted the same thing.

That is the point I am making here, that the PPP and PML-N did not want a confrontation with the US and lose out on US aid and economic support, and therefore wanted Davis released. Whether the Army supported that position reluctantly or not is irrelevant since the politicians were in favor. The Army did not force them to follow that position, and therefore the politicians, as the elected representatives, have full responsibility.

The argument that 'the Army has influence over foreign policy and is therefore primarily responsible' is only applicable IF the Army forced the politicians to release Davis, and that is clearly not the case.


I have read a lot of speculation on the 'wrangling between the ISI and CIA', I have not read anything verifiable on it, or on what was agreed to, nor have we seen any signs of changes in policy on the part of the US/CIA, if anything was agreed to. Until we do, this 'agreement' is all speculation.

As of the meeting in Oman, unless you have some clear facts establishing what was discussed, your claims about what was talked about are speculation. In addition to the meeting in Oman there were high level visits by Kerry and Grossman (Hollbrooke replacement) who met with all senior political leadership in Pakistan, in fact it was after Kerry's visit to Pakistan and meetings with the political leadership (including Nawaz Sharif) that talk of a blood money settlement spiked in the US media.

So one could equally point at the meetings of Kerry and Grossman with the political leadership as the 'establishment of the deal'. In any case, unless someone can establish that the elected representatives were forced by the Army to release Davis, the primary responsibility lies with those elected representatives - the PPP and PML-N.

This is oh so contrived!

It seems even you are not denying that the PA makes the policies as far as relationship with USA and security issues are concerned. That is too obvious to all anyway.

Knowing this and then blaming politicians for also wanting what the PA was going to do anyway, is not really honest.

It just shows how much the military mindset has penetrated the society.

 

[Haseebullah]

I dont get it.They were freaking armed robbers,why the hell is the media not telling this.I'd say Davis did us a favor by getting rid of two robbers for us.Bloody sold media.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

When the PA has never given the policy making to the politicians, these are nothing but little games that don't change anything.

That is what is contrived. The PA has limited itself to policy making in select areas only. Kashmir, India, Afghanistan and Nuclear policy for example.

And during civilian rule the politicians have been involved in a lot - Benazir and her adviser after all approved the decision to support the Taliban stabilize Afghanistan to serve Pakistani interests.

This is oh so contrived!

It seems even you are not denying that the PA makes the policies as far as relationship with USA and security issues are concerned. That is too obvious to all anyway.

Knowing this and then blaming politicians for also wanting what the PA was going to do anyway, is not really honest.

It just shows how much the military mindset has penetrated the society.

There is nothing contrived about it - the civilians are in charge, and the only way the PPP and PML-N do not hold primary responsibility for the Davis release is if they were forced to do so by the Army. Since the elections in 2008, the Army has been attacked left and right by politicians from both of these parties. There was nothing stopping them from highlighting the Army's role (if it was taking a lead role in releasing Davis) in the media and both weakening the Army and improving their own domestic standing tremendously.

When these politicians got elected they assumed the responsibilities that came with that position, and so long as they were not forced by the military to follow a particular policy, they have to take the blame/praise for pursuing that policy. That is how it is and should be. The politicians need to be held accountable for the positions they take, the Army needs to be held accountable when it pursues policies not approved by the politicians. In the Davis case at least the Army pursued policies approved by the PPP and PML-N, and therefore is not responsible.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It just shows how much the military mindset has penetrated the society.

so was it Pakistan army mind controlling the Lawyers to oust Gen Musharraf? (shooting own foot comes to mind). take any Pakistani political talk show or a news analyst, take any political party in general and it wont feel "complete" without blaming army and its generals for the past and present state of affairs in Pakistan. its more of a fashion that has penetrated into the society to blame army. so my friend army is not influencing any such public opinion

Just be fair for a moment my dear. And have a look at all posts in the recent threads and see how many of us are blaming the army and how many are absolving it (as you put it) can I trust you to be fair and reconsider your comment?

Or if you want I can start listing the names of all the Pakistani members blaming army?

Do tell my dear. It just happens that a handful of us are not carried away by emotions and dare to present a different opinion.

 

[Patriot]

Army cannot please everyone.People who think Army should have taken actions etc don't know the consequences of these actions.It's in our enemies interest that we go to war with Super Power which can destroy our country in matter of days.Probably take us back to 1947 and of course the so called Jamats who have so much ghairat are in their homes when Taliban kill twice as much in fact 9x people every weak.Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

 

[Vinod2070]

That is what is contrived. The PA has limited itself to policy making in select areas only. Kashmir, India, Afghanistan and Nuclear policy for example.

The highlighted is the critical part. The list includes the policy towards USA and China as well and this case by its very nature was a security and intelligence issue, strict no-no for the politicians.

BTW, even you have agreed that the PA controls what space it keeps with itself and what it cedes to the elected politicians to play their little games. That is enough.

And during civilian rule the politicians have been involved in a lot - Benazir and her adviser after all approved the decision to support the Taliban stabilize Afghanistan to serve Pakistani interests.

Yes. So what relevance does it have now?

The military has become more sophisticated now? They still control what they want and manage to escape too much scrutiny as well. As long as it suits them.

There is nothing contrived about it - the civilians are in charge, and the only way the PPP and PML-N do not hold primary responsibility for the Davis release is if they were forced to do so by the Army. Since the elections in 2008, the Army has been attacked left and right by politicians from both of these parties. There was nothing stopping them from highlighting the Army's role (if it was taking a lead role in releasing Davis) in the media and both weakening the Army and improving their own domestic standing tremendously.

When these politicians got elected they assumed the responsibilities that came with that position, and so long as they were not forced by the military to follow a particular policy, they have to take the blame/praise for pursuing that policy. That is how it is and should be. The politicians need to be held accountable for the positions they take, the Army needs to be held accountable when it pursues policies not approved by the politicians. In the Davis case at least the Army pursued policies approved by the PPP and PML-N, and therefore is not responsible.

It's clear that the politicians have reconciled with the situation. Its anyway nothing more than fait accompli for them.

They knew it coming into the job and they know they will run to the military against each other the next time as well. They are playing along the charade.

Frankly no one seems to want the politicians to be accountable. Not the politicians themselves, not the army that keeps them on a tight leash and not even the public that distrusts them and thinks the PA is their only savior.

Things don't seem to be changing at all. The public clamored for democracy after a decade of the army rule. Now they will clamor for the army to come back after a few years of the democracy (with and hand and a leg tied).