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Featured SSK Agosta 90B Class Attack Submarine Information Pool

Yep right but it is generally considered to be fisrt step in the right direction, i.e. self production. Let me correct myself here, the first step is to refit a vessel. PN has been refitting both Daphne's and A70's and now have the capabiltiy to refit the A90's.

PN has taken the secons step to assemble and manufacture, reroll some of the outer hull parts etc.

We mightnot be there but our direction is correct. Now if we can get hold of some Chinese ToT, coupled with French know how, I think we can imporve the Chinese product. Not a lot but it would be a start.

i would be really interested in the Chinese prop technology.

I agree that the direction is correct, but there is a great distance to cover too. Taking the first steps of the proverbial thousand mile journey is still a good start.
 
Yep right but it is generally considered to be fisrt step in the right direction, i.e. self production. Let me correct myself here, the first step is to refit a vessel. PN has been refitting both Daphne's and A70's and now have the capabiltiy to refit the A90's.

PN has taken the secons step to assemble and manufacture, reroll some of the outer hull parts etc.

We mightnot be there but our direction is correct. Now if we can get hold of some Chinese ToT, coupled with French know how, I think we can imporve the Chinese product. Not a lot but it would be a start.

i would be really interested in the Chinese prop technology.

good start man....... still long way to go
 
Agosta 90b
Pakistan and DCN France signed a contract for 3 Agosta 90-B submarines on 21 September 1994. Under the contract, one submarine was to be built in France while the remaining two were to be built in Pakistan. The first unit, "KHALID," was built in Cherbourg and delivered to Pakistan in 1999-2000. The sections of second unit, "SAAD," were constructed in Cherbourg and sent to Karachi for modular assembly in 2000. The third unit of the series, "HAMZA," has been manufactured entirely in Karachi.

PNS/M KHALID:
Pakistan Navy Submarine KHALID is the first of the Agosta-90B class submarines acquired by the Pakistan Navy from France. It was commissioned on 6 September 1999 and inducted into PN Fleet on 21 December 1999. The Agosta-90B is an improved version of the sea proven Agosta 70.

PNS/M KHALID encompasses all qualities to strike terror in the hearts of enemies. The submarine has deep diving capabilities and can undertake patrol of more than 60 days. She also posses state of the art Combat System integrating all available sensors to launch multi-purpose wire guided torpedoes and sub launched missiles. The outfit of submarine systems, weapons and sensors make her unique and unprecedented amongst the existing new generation conventional submarines.

PNS/M KHALID is named after Hazrat KHALID BIN WALID, the great Fighter and one of the most reputed military Commanders of Islam. Agosta submarines are currently in service with three navies. PNS/M KHALID incorporate improvements based on the experience gained by the French Navy and new advances in endurance, acoustic discretion, propulsion and diving capability. Its fully integrated COMBAT system enables the command to quickly evaluate the tactical situation and decide on an appropriate response. The submarine is capable to launch multipurpose torpedoes and submarine launched anti-ship missiles. PNS/M KHALID is first Agosta-90B class submarine built for Pakistan Navy by DCN Cherbourg. As per contract, this submarine was completely built in France. The submarine construction was completed on 8 Aug 98. Sea trials were conducted at Cherbourg, Brest and Toulon. PNS/M KHALID is the fore-runner of Pakistan Navy, capable of undertaking a wide variety of missions, far and deep from home waters.

PNS/M SAAD:
SAAD was the 1st Agosta-90B class submarine built at Pakistan Navy Dockyard under the Transfer of Technology (TOT) agreement with France. She was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 13 December 2003. Then Ag Captain M Tariq Iqbal Sharafi PN (P.No. 2599) was designated at 1st Commanding Officer of PN Submarine SAAD. The submarine is capable of operating at deeper depths and can under take patrol of more than 60 days. These also posses the state of the art Combat System integrating all available sensors to launch multi purpose wire guided torpedoes and sub launched missiles. The outfit of submarine systems, weapons and sensors make it unique and unprecedented amongst the existing generation conventional submarines.

PNS/M HAMZA: PNS/M HAMZA, the third Agosta 90B submarine that has been completely built at Pakistan Navy Dockyard was commissioned into Pakistan Navy Fleet on 26 September 2008. The submarine was launched in August 2006 by Begum Sehba Musharraf (wife of then president General (Rtd) Pervez Musharraf). The submarine is named after Hazrat Hamza who is one of the uncles of the last Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH). HAMZA was known as Lion of God and Lion of Heaven for his bravery.
PN Submarine HAMZA is the first submarine that has been fitted with MESMA Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system. The submarine has been indigenously constructed under transfer of technology programme by DCNS of France. Pakistan is the first country to use MESMA AIP system onboard a submarine.

http://www.paknavy.gov.pk/agosta90b.htm
 
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http://babriet.tripod.com/navy/stat/statagosta90.htm
 

Due to its capabilities which is being increased due to modifications done by PN experts so I supposed that we should have gone for a total of 7 of these submarines along with JV with French on Scorpion and Andrasta in 2000 so that after induction of Agosta-90Bs we can move towards 7 Scorpion from 2006 and 5 Andrasta.
Like 1st Agosta-90B in 1999 and then 2nd and 3rd Agosta-90B assembled in 2001 then 4th and 5th Agosta-90B in 2004 and then 6th and 7th Agosta-90B in 2006 along with the 3rd Shipyard being build in 1999 and upgradation of the whole facility. More over after 7 Agosta-90B we can make a deal with BD and Kenya Srilanka for upplying them with Subs 3 BDs, 3 to Kenya and 1-2 to Srilanka??? by producing single Agosta-90B every year.
 
The AIP Alternative



Air-Independent Propulsion: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?


By DON WALSH

Don Walsh served 24 years in the Navy, during which time he was involved in many aspects of Navy oceanographic activity. In 1975, he founded and chaired the Institute for Marine and Coastal Studies at the University of Southern California. He left that post in 1983 to devote full time to International Maritime Inc., which he founded in 1975 and still heads.


For nearly 100 years a primary goal for ship designers has been to increase the range and submerged-time capabilities of submarines. It was an elusive target until the introduction of nuclear propulsion in the mid-1950s. But nuclear propulsion was, and is, too costly for all but five of the world's major navies.

For the other 30 or so navies in the world diesel-electric boats would remain their only viable option. But even the most modern of today's diesel boats are only marginally better (in submerged-time and range) than the submarines of World Wars I and II. Development of the first practical air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems for diesel submarines, however, promises much greater improvements over the next 15*20 years.

The operational demands of World Wars I and II led to a major expansion of most of the submarine fleets of the warring powers. This led in turn to greatly increased investments in technological development. Even after World War II, designers developed a variety of enhancements for diesel-electric submarines--in streamlining and noise quieting, for example, in reducing manpower requirements in the design and production of more powerful batteries, and in snorkel improvements (for extended submerged range). Almost all of those, and other, capability improvements were incremental, though, and rather modest in scale.

Technical and Safety Problems

The development of air-independent propulsion systems actually began during World War II, when the Soviet Union and Germany developed AIP systems for their submarines. The Soviet-designed AIP system used liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to operate a closed-cycle diesel (CCD) engine that was installed in the submarine M-401 for an experiment that lasted from 1940 to 1945.

In Germany, Professor Hellmuth Walter, an engineer, developed an AIP system that used highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide to produce steam for a turbine-driven submarine. Towards the end of World War II the system was installed in the newly developed Type XXVI U-boat. As with the Soviet system, the Walter system was plagued by numerous technical and safety problems. Safe handling of the highly unstable peroxide in the closed space of a submarine proved to be simply too difficult and the Type XXVI U-boats never saw combat. Moreover, because it was so late in the war there was neither enough time nor enough resources to convert the Type XXVIs into effective combat units.

After World War II the Americans, British, and Soviets all obtained access to Walter's work and attempted to extend it to a safe conclusion. In the United States, the Navy's Engineering Experimental Station in Annapolis, Md., did extensive testing of a Walter Cycle AIP system. Eventually a reduced-size system was installed in the small experimental submarine X-1. However, by the mid-1950s the U.S. Navy had terminated this work. Nuclear-propulsion systems were being developed and the potential value of AIP-powered diesel submarines seemed to be no longer important.

In Britain the Royal Navy (RN) installed a Walter Cycle plant in HMS Excalibur to test the system under actual seagoing conditions. The results were not encouraging. In fact, the submarine was often referred to as "HMS Exploder." The experiments were stopped when the Royal Navy also shifted to nuclear submarines.

More Problems Than Progress

The Soviets continued AIP development for 15 years after World War II. Using data generated from their work on WWII closed-cycle diesel AIP systems, they built 30 Quebec-class submarines (from 1953 to 1957). They gained considerable operational experience with AIP, but the submarines--which ran on liquid oxygen and diesel fuel--were not satisfactory in fleet service. There were explosions, fires, and even the loss of some submarines. Russian submariners grimly called the Quebecs "cigarette lighters." AIP development was terminated in the mid-1970s, and the remaining Quebecs were scrapped. They had achieved much greater submerged endurance and range, but those gains were cancelled out by the unsafe nature of their AIP systems.

Meanwhile, the Soviets had also (in 1952) built an experimental Walter Cycle submarine designated Design Project 617, which entered service in 1958. An onboard explosion put an end to the program in 1959. From then on the Soviets also focused on nuclear propulsion--but they did carry out some further AIP research and development (R&D) for the diesel submarines they continued to build.

The CCD engines and the Walter steam turbines represented sound theoretical approaches to AIP. Increases up to 400 percent in submerged time and/or range were possible in the better systems; however, they still could not be made sufficiently safe for routine fleet operations. Nuclear power seemed not only the best but also the final answer to the submariners' dream of virtually unlimited submerged duration. Because it was such an expensive dream, though, nuclear propulsion was limited to only a handful of navies. Diesel boats were the only other choice available to less affluent navies with sizable submarine fleets. But many of those navies hoped for an affordable AIP system to be developed some day.

The problem was that only the major navies could afford the R&D needed in this area--and most of those navies had dropped AIP work in favor of nuclear propulsion. Eventually, though, submarine design groups in Germany, Sweden, and France resumed their work on AIP systems, following four different technical approaches: fuel cell, closed-cycle diesel, Stirling cycle engine, and steam turbo-electric.

European Advances in AIP

The Swedish Navy became the first to put AIP systems into its fleet operating units. The Kockums-built AIP system was first tested on the refurbished submarine Näcken in 1989. Today, three Gotland-class subs (Gotland, Uppland, and Halland) are fitted with Swedish Stirling cycle engines, which use liquid oxygen and diesel oil. The Gotlands are powered by hybrid diesel-electric propulsion units, with the Stirling engine supplementing the conventional diesel-electric system. The Stirling engine turns a generator that produces electricity for propulsion and/or to charge the vessel's batteries.

The Gotland was delivered in 1996. Submerged endurance (without snorkeling) for the 1,500-ton submarine is 14 days at five knots. A crew of five officers and 28 enlisted personnel is required to operate the submarine. Kockums now offers the similar T-96 submarine for export. The "unit cost" of the T-96 is about $100 million.

Some of today's most advanced AIP developmental work is being carried out by the German Submarine Consortium (GSC). This group consists of two shipyards--the Howaltswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW, in Kiel) and the Thyssen Nordsee Werke (TNSW, in Emden)--plus the IKL design bureau and the Ferrostaal trading company. Over the past 30 years the two shipyards have delivered 122 submarines to 16 navies either as new construction or as "kits" for local production.

For the past 15 years both shipyards have been working on parallel development of two different AIP systems. HDW offers a fuel cell (developed with Siemens Electric), while TNSW is marketing a closed-cycle diesel engine. After extensive prototype testing ashore, both systems were sea-tested in 1988*1990 on the U-1, a former German Navy Type 205 diesel-electric submarine.

The HDW fuel cell is scheduled to enter fleet service in 2003 on GSC's new 1,800-ton 212-class submarines. This AIP system also will be a "hybrid," with the submarine retaining a basic diesel-electric propulsion system. A fuel cell cannot deliver sufficient electrical output for high-speed operations, but the conventional storage battery can (for a short period of time, after which the fuel cell can recharge the battery as well as provide energy for low-speed operations).

Artificial Air But Tangible Improvements

HDW estimates that the 212, with its crew of 27, will be able to remain submerged for more than a month and to cruise (at four knots) for over 3,000 miles. Four of the $250-million submarines will be delivered to the German Navy--two built by HDW and two built by TNSW. Two also are being built for the Italian Navy under license at Italy's Fincantieri Shipyard.

GSC recently announced the availability of the 214 class, an improved version of the 212 with greater diving depth (more than 1,400 feet), a newer dual-fuel-cell design, and a slightly larger crew of 30 officers and men. It has been reported that Greece intends to order three of the 214s.

Thyssen Nordseewerke's closed-cycle diesel system uses liquid oxygen, diesel fuel, and argon gas to fuel its AIP system. The oxygen and argon gases are combined to make "artificial air" for the diesel. Argon, an inert gas, is recovered and continuously reused. The same diesel is used as a conventional air-breathing engine for main propulsion on the surface or when snorkeling. TNSW's CCD AIP system is considered to be particularly cost-effective for the retrofit of existing diesel-electric submarines, but it also can be installed in a new-construction boat.

Both HDW and TNSW estimate that the AIP option will add only about 15 percent to the overall cost of a newbuild submarine. To get that much added performance for such a small addition in cost is considered quite a bargain. It also appears that most AIP systems will require, on average, the addition of a hull section approximately 30 feet long.

In France the DCN International naval shipbuilding company has developed the "MESMA" (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP steam-turbine system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. DCNI offers the MESMA option for its Agosta 90B and Scorpene classes of submarines. The company claims that its AIP option increases submarine underwater en-durance "by a factor of 3 to 5." The design of the MESMA system permits it to be retrofitted into many existing submarines simply by adding an extra hull section.

Pakistan has bought three Agosta-class submarines, the first of which was commissioned earlier this year. The third one, expected to be built in Pakistan, will be fitted with the MESMA AIP system and thus in all likelihood become the world's first MESMA-powered submarine.

Outlook for the Future

In addition to the builders of the four Swedish submarines and the GSC and DCNI boats, there are other "players" who have done considerable R&D work on AIP systems. Russia is offering a fuel-cell option for its "improved" Kilo- and Amur-class attack submarines. None have yet been built with an AIP system, but reports suggest that China may add an AIP unit to one of its Project 636 Kilos.

The Netherlands' RDM submarine shipyard offers its "Spectre" CCD option for the yard's 1,800-ton Moray 1800 H submarine; none have been built yet, but RDM estimates that a hybrid-powered Moray could remain submerged for 20 days while cruising at two knots. Negotiations started earlier this year to build an AIP Moray for Egypt, but as of early November there had been no firm commitment. The average cost of a Moray is estimated to be about $250 million.

The Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Agency has undertaken studies to add AIP systems to its latest models of diesel-electric submarines. The leading candidate systems are the Swedish Stirling engine and the German HDW fuel cell.

It is estimated that 100*150 diesel submarines will be purchased in the next 10 years. Naval experts--and shipbuilders--throughout the world are closely monitoring the operations of the Swedish Navy's four AIP submarines and eagerly await the first GSC-Type 212 submarine. By 2005 there should be sufficient fleet operating experience to determine what are the most likely operational and cost benefits that can be derived from shifting to AIP systems. By then the unit cost for a modern diesel-electric submarine should be between $200 million and $300 million. Paying only 15 percent more to add or retrofit an AIP unit--a relatively small cost for greatly improved submerged performance--should be a very attractive option, therefore.

AIP submarines could be a particularly formidable threat when operating in coastal waters, marginal ice zones, or maritime straits and other global "choke points." Add to that the virtual certainty that new underwater weapons will help equalize the performance disparity between AIP boats and nuclear-powered submarines and it may well happen that the U.S. Navy will want to reassess the desirability of developing an AIP submarine of its own, if only to learn how to counter this new and potentially revolutionary undersea challenge.
 
@Penguin . do you have any info on the length of torpedo tubes? is there ant standard length same as we have a standard dia of 21 inches?
 
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@Penguin . do you have any info on the length of torpedo tubes? is there ant standard length same as we have a standard dia of 21 inches?

Checking. Meanwhile, consider that heavy weight torpedoes are easily 6-7m. Length of UGM-109 Tomahawk is 5.56 m and 6.25m with booster. Club missile variants range from 6.2m to 8.22 m. The 3M54TE is 8.9 m. Skval is also over 8m. 3M51 Regular Russian 533mm tubes can accommodate these.

I'm not sure this applies to Western tubes, given the following (in a discussion of Club):
The missile is 6.2 meters long, which is the same as the length of the standard torpedo tubes used by Western navies.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/club.htm
 
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Current torpedo tubes are of two lengths, bow tubes being 252 inches, stern tubes 276 inches, over all length, not including doors. The effective length (the greatest length of the torpedoes that can be loaded into the barrel) for a barrel 252 inches over-all would be 250.81 inches; for a barrel 276 inches over-all, the effective length would be 274.81 inches.
21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes - Chapter 2 (chapter 2 page 19)

21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes, Ordnance Pamphlet 1085, is one of a series of submarine training manuals that was completed just after WW II. The series describes the peak of WW II US submarine technology.
The Fleet Type Submarine - 21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes

252 inch = 6.400 8 meter <> 250.81 inch = 6.370 574 meter
276 inch = 7.010 4 meter <> 274.81 inch = 6.980 174 meter
 
Launches Type 53 torpedoes. Mounted on the Russian Destroyer RFS Vice-Admiral Kulakov.

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INS Teg DTA-53-11356-2 heavyweight torpedo tube launchers

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http://frontierindia.org/forum/f4/ins-teg-dta-53-torpedo-tubes-1526/

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Large pics of tubes and Russian torpedoes here: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.nl/2011/08/wasted-opportunities.html

DM2A4 Seehecht (export designation "SeaHake mod 4" is the latest heavyweight torpedo developed by Atlas Elektronik for the German NavyThe DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 is the first torpedo ever to be guided by a fiber optic wire. The weapon has a modular design that includes up to four silver zinc battery modules and is able to achieve a range of more than 50 km (27 nm) and a speed exceeding 92.6 km/h (50 kt). The torpedo is in service with the German Navy Type 212 submarines, has been delivered to the Pakistan Navy for service in the Agosta 90B submarines and has been selected by the Spanish Navy for its new S80A submarines. The weapon has a length of 6.6 m when configured with 4 battery modules, and is respectively shorter when configured with either 3 or 2 battery modules depending upon the requirement of the operating unit.
DM2A4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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DTI-Extra: Torpedoes in Pictures

SeaHake Mod 4 ER
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http://defense-studies.blogspot.nl/2012/05/atlas-elektronik-sets-new-range-record.html
 
Penguin,

You okay dude?

You're posting Russian Ships in Pakistan's Agosta 90B thread and F-16s in P3C orion thread????
 
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