Featured SSK Agosta 90B Class Attack Submarine Information Pool

[Penguin]

Do you think PN was right when they wanted Upholder class? And Pakistan Gov't went for 90Bs instead.

Does Upholder have AIP or option to have it??

Which one overall better for Pakistan?

Edit:

What MLU can be given to 90Bs?? What new features can added as per current threats?

The Upholder is a fine boat. They were very quiet and capable when they first came into service with RN (after some delay as a few design flaw were fixed). However,they were decommissioned when they had served just 1,5-3 years. And any boat quickly deteriorates when laid up without proper conservation and care. Messing up the existing command and control systems - as the Canadian did - didn't help either. Upholders can be (re)fitted with AIP.

 

[shaheenmissile]

OK then why do you think Babur diameter was kept below the international dia of a submarine torpedo tube?
533mm?
Instead of going for some silly dimensions like Indian Brahmos which won't fit anything without expensive modifications.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Yes. I was a bit wrong about it. PN will keep this beast for long. Also, tell me about any other operation Agosta-90 which PN can acquire?

 

[A2Z]

your getting 8 subs, why are you complaining?

We are getting 8 subs but would they be able to fire SLCM?

 

[JunaidP]

OK then why do you think Babur diameter was kept below the international dia of a submarine torpedo tube?
533mm?
Instead of going for some silly dimensions like Indian Brahmos which won't fit anything without expensive modifications.

Exactly.. Tomahawk and Babar have the same dimensions and Tomahawk is definitely capable of being fired from a 533mm tube.. how that capability is achieved for Babur is a different matter altogether.. US detecting a "harpoon launch" could very well be Babur being tested from the sea..

 

[Blue Marlin]

We are getting 8 subs but would they be able to fire SLCM?

most probably, the 4 chinese subs may not get it.

 

[Basel]

The Upholder is a fine boat. They were very quiet and capable when they first came into service with RN (after some delay as a few design flaw were fixed). However,they were decommissioned when they had served just 1,5-3 years. And any boat quickly deteriorates when laid up without proper conservation and care. Messing up the existing command and control systems - as the Canadian did - didn't help either. Upholders can be (re)fitted with AIP.

Tanks for the response, but you left last part of my post regarding MLU of 90-Bs, please give your opinion on that too.

most probably, the 4 chinese subs may not get it.

If only one type is purchased then all subs will have similar capabilities including SLCM capability.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I wish that PN will have money to acquire some more EU submarines in future.

The Germans were ready to sell U-214 and the necessary financing had been arranged. There was only one sticking point, and that was the integration of cruise missiles in the Sub. The Germans refused it after American Pressure and the PN made it clear that it was a deal breaker. This is why Pakistan has opted for the Chinese solution, because PN desperately needs a platform on the sea capable of firing Ballistic Missiles.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Tanks for the response, but you left last part of my post regarding MLU of 90-Bs, please give your opinion on that too.

theres not much that pakistan can do. first two a90b's will be installed with the aip's very soon whilst the last hamza already has it. when the two subs undergo such upgrade it is cut in two pieces, or the top quarter is opened up and the module is inserted. it may get typical upgrades example being fire and control systems and upgrades to parts that need to be upgraded. but its worth noting that these upgrades are already on pns Hamza.

If only one type is purchased then all subs will have similar capabilities including SLCM capability.

pakistani boats will most probably have its own indigenous c&c's Chinese subs will have their own c&c's. pakistan's c&c's are apart of the authority who controls pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

The Germans were ready to sell U-214 and the necessary financing had been arranged. There was only one sticking point, and that was the integration of cruise missiles in the Sub. The Germans refused it after American Pressure and the PN made it clear that it was a deal breaker. This is why Pakistan has opted for the Chinese solution, because PN desperately needs a platform on the sea capable of firing Ballistic Missiles.

where is your source to validate your point? and are you sure that was the only reason the deal was dropped in favor of a Chinese sub?

 

[Basel]

theres not much that pakistan can do. first two a90b's will be installed with the aip's very soon whilst the last hamza already has it. when the two subs undergo such upgrade it is cut in two pieces, or the top quarter is opened up and the module is inserted. it may get typical upgrades example being fire and control systems and upgrades to parts that need to be upgraded. but its worth noting that these upgrades are already on pns Hamza.


pakistani boats will most probably have its own indigenous c&c's Chinese subs will have their own c&c's. pakistan's c&c's are apart of the authority who controls pakistan's nuclear arsenal.


where is your source to validate your point?

The installation of AIP on initial 02 started in 2011.

Pakistan Submarine Capabilities | Articles | NTI Analysis | NTI

Also I was referring to future MLU not addition of AIP on 90Bs which was planned at time of the deal.

Pakistan never purchase pure Chinese Systems, we purchase highly customized hybrids, and 08 upcoming ones will be hybrids too.

 

[notorious_eagle]

where is your source to validate your point? and are you sure that was the only reason the deal was dropped in favor of a Chinese sub?

Go back through this very section and you will find your sources.

Well that was not the only reason, but it was one of the major reasons. PN was in complete love with the U-214's. Besides, the decision to go with Chinese Subs was taken after PN Officers were given an extensive tour. They were extremely impressed by how far the Chinese Sub Technology had come along. These subs will be customized to suit PN's requirements.

 

[A2Z]

most probably, the 4 chinese subs may not get it.

So its 50-50? And what about AIP? PN chose S-20 which is export variant of Yuan class and does not have AIP.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Go back through this very section and you will find your sources.

Well that was not the only reason, but it was one of the major reasons. PN was in complete love with the U-214's. Besides, the decision to go with Chinese Subs was taken after PN Officers were given an extensive tour. They were extremely impressed by how far the Chinese Sub Technology had come along. These subs will be customized to suit PN's requirements.

pn is able to get the type 214 via turkey, where they will be given a license to export them, and pakistan is no doubt high on their list of potential export partners.

china and pakistan are obviously extremely strong in terms of their defense partnership, china has to establish and grow its export portfolio to gain even more markets. and pakistan is perfect client due to their strong ties and their eventual desire for the chinese subs. which has led to one of china largest defense contracts and the largest supplier of subs for this year.

The installation of AIP on initial 02 started in 2011.

Pakistan Submarine Capabilities | Articles | NTI Analysis | NTI

Also I was referring to future MLU not addition of AIP on 90Bs which was planned at time of the deal.

Pakistan never purchase pure Chinese Systems, we purchase highly customized hybrids, and 08 upcoming ones will be hybrids too.

yes i have read the link but i could not find where i read it

so i got the info from here:Agosta 90B

its not as informative as nti, but its a decent source of info.

nobody knows the ratio how which systems/components will be chinese or foreign or indigenous thats something you will have to ask a well informed naval officer, and i doubt he will tell you. but one thing is clear, this procurement will be very secretive due to its nature, and i don't want to talk/speculate too much of it.

So its 50-50? And what about AIP? PN chose S-20 which is export variant of Yuan class and does not have AIP.

all 8 subs may get stirling aip modules, and Pakistan will get tot of the aip's.

but pakistan may get fuel cell aip's, the same as the aip the china got from Germany.

im not so sure on that, but i was told by a Chinese member it will be stirling aip module from the 711th research institute.

 

[Basel]

pn is able to get the type 214 via turkey, where they will be given a license to export them, and pakistan is no doubt high on their list of potential export partners.

china and pakistan are obviously extremely strong in terms of their defense partnership, china has to establish and grow its export portfolio to gain even more markets. and pakistan is perfect client due to their strong ties and their eventual desire for the chinese subs. which has led to one of china largest defense contracts and the largest supplier of subs for this year.


yes i have read the link but i could not find where i read it

so i got the info from here:Agosta 90B

its not as informative as nti, but its a decent source of info.

nobody knows the ratio how which systems/components will be chinese or foreign or indigenous thats something you will have to ask a well informed naval officer, and i doubt he will tell you. but one thing is clear, this procurement will be very secretive due to its nature, and i don't want to talk/speculate too much of it.


all 8 subs may get stirling aip modules, and Pakistan will get tot of the aip's.

but pakistan may get fuel cell aip's, the same as the aip the china got from Germany.

im not so sure on that, but i was told by a Chinese member it will be stirling aip module from the 711th research institute.

Can you post types of AIPs and there pros n cons??? And which one is better??

F-22P have many western components including sonar, now get the hint how Pakistan buys weapons from China.

 

[black-hawk_101]

The Germans were ready to sell U-214 and the necessary financing had been arranged. There was only one sticking point, and that was the integration of cruise missiles in the Sub. The Germans refused it after American Pressure and the PN made it clear that it was a deal breaker. This is why Pakistan has opted for the Chinese solution, because PN desperately needs a platform on the sea capable of firing Ballistic Missiles.

They should try it now with Greek Submarines or may be again with the Germans as still U-212 adn U-214 are credible platforms.

As EU submarines can be used as a replacement of Agosta-70s and Agosta-90Bs in near future.