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South China Sea Forum

I always find it laughable that people think the UNCLOS arbitration will force our hand, or can even claim we violate the law. Truth of the matter is, we have the "ace card" which turn UNCLOS into a game of "he says, she says", endless debate without ever providing concrete evidence. Shall we look at our "ace card"?

To understand UNCLOS, everyone must understand that each country has the "right" to make a declaration before ratification of any new law on UNCLOS for what each states agree and NOT agree.

China made this "key" statement, which is extremely important regarding dispute settlement and UNCLOS.



Shall we look in detail of what we will not agree when ratifying the new law?


Shall we look deeper in the Article 15, 74, 83 that we did not agree with?



Fact is we do not accept these articles and disputing states have no right to infringe on our territorial claim when we agreed when ratified UNCLOS. These are what we said when ratified:

"The People's Republic of China reaffirms its sovereignty over all its archipelagos and islands as listed in article 2 of the Law of the People's Republic of China on the territorial sea and the contiguous zone, which was promulgated on 25 February 1992."


In other words, we always reaffirm our territorial claims. It is up to other dispute parties to prove our territorial claims are invalid, which is a tough task considered we have many historical evidence, treaties, and among the legal right of acquiescence of disputing states. If you understand the legal definition of "Acquiescence" in the court of law, you will understand why our territorial rights are unchallenged.

So why didn't we agree to arbitration, you may ask, if we are confident to win any territorial dispute? It's simple. First, there is no legal procedure that can force our hand. Second, we did not violate any UNCLOS by making that "Declaration" and as such UNCLOS credibility is intact when a great power, as China, did not break any agreements we obligated to follow... And lastly, the 9-dotted line may lack sufficient "moral" justification to make a claim, which is why we are hesitated to clearly clarified as a strategic attempt to keep disputing countries from "guessing" or attempting to understand a strategy to advance their interest.

We can win all territorial disputes in the court of law but we will lose the moral justification. We understand this, which is why we will not go to arbitration.

First off, let me start with this question. Do you think you can do a better job in leading the free world?

When you ratified the UNCLOS in 1996, you made a statement that you enjoy sovereign rights over its exclusive economic zone of 200 nm and the continental shelf. You also stated a law it passed in 1992 claiming islands in South China Sea including Taiwan and other disputed islands. Keep in mind that the UNCLOS was written in 1982. In both statements, Your country also stated that you will abide and respect the international law.

If others are to respect China's 200nm EEZ and continental shelf, then you should in return respect your neighbors' territories. Even if you do not accept Sec 2 of Part XV of the Convention (which China did in 2006), Art 74 and 76 clearly defines the issue in South China Sea.

Going back to my question above, You are establishing yourself as a major player in the world. But if you want the whole world to listen, you should not treat your neighbor like this. If you really want to settle the dispute then there are several choices.

1. Choice of procedure under article 287 of the Convention
2. International Court of Justice
3. International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea
4. Arbitrators and Conciliators

Clearly, you don't want any international involvement because you don't want the international community to see you for what you really are.

The way I see it. The reasons for you not participating in the UN tribunal because:

1. Philippines way of initiating the process are law-full and right. Your country, however wants to prolong the issue to maintain the status quo which is legal limbo and defacto Chinese rule through intimidation and force. Use of force is not amicable.

2. You delayed for as long as possible the signing of the Code of Conduct which was requested as early as 1995. This is not amicable.

3. You have no faith in the final outcome because you know you are breaking the laws that you yourselves agreed to and easily use it in your favor. This is not amicable as it is duplicitous.

4. The way Philippines handled the process is law-full and was forced by you (China) as a last resort. You want to prolong the current ambiguous status quo and be able to defacto enforce your rule in the South China Sea through force of arms. This is not amicable.

5. You still occupies Mischief reef which Chinese government admitted in 1996 was Philippine territory and that you will only use it as fisherman's sanctuary. You lied and built military structures. Now Scarborough shoals. This duplicitous and criminal behavior is not amicable.

Anyway I believe once the tribunal decides that the Philippines' claim is legitimate under UNCLOS, our claim will be legally recognized by the UN under UNCLOS. That will cement the grounds of our claim further and if you do not respect our entitlement, you will suffer badly especially your reputation around the world more so now that you looked at as a rising great power. Failure to cooperate would also further antagonize other Asian states Japan, India, Vietnam and other claimants in the dispute. Last possibility is that this could now be used as a valid raison d'être of an alliance among the smaller claimant nations against you.
 
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LOL so the topic was already merged here. I still can see a lot of topic running as a separate thread related to SCS that can also be merged here, yet there are also topics related to Chinese economy that they can also merged too. Not just SCS. Hmm seems they only choose 'some' what's not good for their eyes? :lol:

Peace! :P
 
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I remember Chinese FM Spokeperson Hong Lei saying that "China has sufficient historical and jurisprudence evidence to support its claim to the Nansha islands, which are located in the South China Sea and their adjacent waters."

I was like really? Come on then why can't you submit yourself to the international arbitration body?

If you are a responsible member of the international community, then you should not turn your back but rather face the accusation you are claiming to be false, and prove that it is indeed false. Am I right?

ninedashedlinemapsouthchinasea_UNCLOS.jpg
Dear China: if you claim those islands as yours, FIGHT for it DIPLOMATICALLY in UN Court! This is the 21st Century, not some Dynasty! :omghaha:
 
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The Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) is creating a marine corps and establishing a new naval base in the South China Sea near waters it disputes with China, IHS Jane’s reported this week, citing a press release from Defense Minister Hishammuddin Tun Hussein.

According to the defense minister’s statement, the new naval base will be built in Bintulu on the South China Sea (SCS) for the explicit purpose of protecting nearby waters and oil reserves. As Jane’s points out, however, the base will be located just 60 miles from the James Shoal, an area in the South China Sea claimed by both Malaysia and China.

Back in March a PLA amphibious task force conducted a large naval exercise in the James Shoal.

“It is not just a few ships here and there, but a crack amphibious landing ship carrying marines and hovercraft and backed by some of the best escort ships in the PLAN fleet,” Gary Li, a senior analyst with IHS Fairplay, told Asian Correspondent at the time.

“We've never seen anything like this that far south in terms of quantity or quality … it is hard to know whether it is just coincidence, but it does seem to reflect [President] Xi Jinping's desire for more practical operationally based exercises,” Li added.

IHS Jane’s said that establishment of the Marine Corps will be partly used to deal with Sulu militants who have caused unrest in Sabah in eastern Malaysia. The Marine Corps will be drawn from Malaysia’s existing services as the overall size of the armed forces is capped. It has not been determined which of the services the Marine Corps will fall under.

IHS Jane’s said that Malaysia will rely on the expertise of the U.S. Marines Corps (USMC) to help develop the new Marine force.

“Malaysia is keen to draw on the USMC's expertise and has been in discussions with the United States (US) over support, training and expertise exchange,” the report said.

Initially, the Malaysian marine corps will lack an amphibious naval platform as the RMN’s only amphibious ship, the Newport-class landing ship-tank KD Sri Inderapura, was destroyed in a fire in 2009. It is currently in discussions with both France and South Korea over acquiring a landing platform deck (LPD). The U.S. has also offered Malaysia the LPD USS Denver after it decommissions it in 2014. U.S.-based defense companies are also discussing selling Malaysia the AH-1Z Super Cobra attack helicopters.

Malaysia’s decision to establish a naval base in the South China Sea is in line with other Southeast Asian nations that are locked in territorial disputes with China over the waters. As The Diplomat reported last week, the Philippines is creating a new naval base on Oyster Bay, Palawan Island. Vietnam is similarly expanding its Cam Ranh Bay naval base and offering foreign navies greater access to it.


Malaysia to Establish Marine Corps and South China Sea Naval Base | Flashpoints | The Diplomat
 
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SOUTHEAST ASIA
October 21, 2013
By Lucio Blanco Pitlo III and Amruta Karambelkar

Among the claimants and littoral states of the South China Sea (SCS), the Philippines and Vietnam have been the most vocal in expressing their alarm and concern over growing Chinese assertiveness in this strategic and resource-rich regional commons. Because of their power asymmetry vis-à-vis China, which has the most extensive claims to the SCS, Manila and Hanoi have been supporters of the U.S. pivot to Asia, to balance against Beijing’s growing maritime power projection, while also using diplomatic outreach to cultivate as many supporters as possible. The Philippines has been bolstering its defense and maritime law enforcement with the help of the U.S. and Japan. Vietnam is meanwhile relying on its traditional partners – India and Russia – as additional cushions against possible excesses of China’s rise to power in the region. Both countries are also seeking support from ASEAN.

The SCS dispute took a notable turn when Philippines went to UN arbitration to challenge China’s nine-dashed line. The claimants had to that point sought to manage the dispute through regional mechanisms and bilateral talks. Not surprisingly, then, Manila’s move has irked Beijing, which has been insistent on not internationalizing the dispute. While it may be premature to assess Manila’s strategy at this stage, it is interesting to examine the factors that led to parallels, as well as variances, in the strategies taken by Manila and Hanoi via-à-vis China’s increasing assertiveness in the SCS.

Vietnam’s strategies are shaped by its history, economy and geographical proximity with China. Vietnam’s economy is highly reliant on its trade and investments with China and this dependency limits Vietnam’s actions. Yet of all the disputants, it is Vietnam that has lost the most ground to China in the SCS – the Paracels in 1974 and part of the Spratlys (Johnson South Reef and Fiery Cross Reef) in 1988. Hence, Hanoi has many axes to grind against China in the SCS. Both countries have also contested offshore blocks each has awarded to foreign energy players and have traded accusations of arrests and harassment of their fishermen. However, alongside these clashes are positive milestones such as the demarcation of their common land boundary, establishment of a joint fishing zone in Tonkin Gulf and more recently the creation of a fishery hotline that could greatly aid in mitigating “incidents” at sea arising from overlapping fishing grounds. As two socialist countries with a history of competition and cooperation (they were Cold War and Vietnam War allies), many channels, official and semi-official, including Party-to-Party talks, have served as platforms to ensure that tensions are kept at manageable levels and not allowed to affect other aspects of bilateral relations, notably trade and investment. In fact, just recently, the two countries signed 12 agreements to enhance bilateral cooperation in the areas of trade, infrastructure, energy and maritime affairs, and set up a working group to look into joint exploration in SCS.

This status quo would seem to be an achievement of Chinese diplomacy, mitigating conflict with Vietnam at a time when Beijing is embroiled in another dispute with the Philippines, likewise over the SCS. When it comes to Vietnam, China would seem to have employed the right strategy at the right time. Bilateral relations therefore appear unhindered despite the territorial and maritime disputes, giving Vietnam little motivation to do what the Philippines has done, and challenge Beijing’s claims before an international body.

Of course, Vietnam has continued to raise the SCS in ASEAN forums. It is also trying to improve relations with the U.S., and is consulting with the Philippines on mutual concerns. Although Vietnam has shown some support for Manila’s move to arbitrate, this backing is unlikely to graduate to a united Hanoi-Manila front versus Beijing. Again, Hanoi is constrained in its options for dealing with Beijing, and cannot afford a bold stand, save for fiery rhetoric. It will continue to express its dissatisfaction with China through the likes of the ASEAN Regional Forum, which serves as an international outlet given the participation of extra regional powers. Meanwhile, like other ASEAN countries, and especially those with SCS claims, Vietnam will watch closely the outcome of Manila’s arbitration bid and may reshape its strategies accordingly. Given Manila’s legal challenge, it can be argued that the Chinese leadership may be more willing to compromise with Hanoi just to isolate Manila and prevent the creation of a united front against Beijing’s sweeping SCS claims.

The Philippines’ SCS strategy, meanwhile, is motivated by a perceived Chinese westward push at its expense. Despite long administering the largest features in the Spratlys, Manila’s military capabilities are limited. The occupation of Mischief Reef came about two years after the removal of the U.S. bases, and marked the point at which the much talked-about “China threat” became a reality. Since then, Beijing has intensified its fortifications and naval presence in the area. As a militarily disadvantaged state, Manila’s fallback rested on its 1951 Mutual Defense Treaty with the U.S.. But warming Sino-U.S. relations, especially on the economic front, may put limits on what Manila can expect from its traditional ally. The fear that a Sino-U.S. understanding on the SCS, wherein Washington tacitly acquiesces to Beijing consolidating its position in the semi-enclosed sea, may also become an emerging consideration, making it imperative for the Philippines to diversify its security partners to give it more room for independent action. Nonetheless, the U.S. remains important to the Philippines for trade and security, despite the ups and downs in relations. Manila closed the U.S. bases in Subic and Clark in 1991 but allowed U.S. forces to come back in 1999 through the Visiting Forces Agreement, and has since been a major ally in the war against terrorism. Manila is a natural partner in Washington’s rebalancing strategy. The Philippines is also strengthening ties with Japan, which has its own disputes with China, in the East China Sea. This power web can help the Philippines absorb retaliatory measures from China, and as such may have emboldened Manila to take a stand against Beijing.

It might therefore be said that power arrangements and alignments dictate the strategies of Vietnam and the Philippines. Moreover, in contrast to Vietnam, the Philippines does not have a large trade and investment dependency with China, as the U.S. and Japan are still its primary primary trade and aid partners. True, Sino-Philippine economic ties have been growing, and certainly the Philippines felt the effects of China’s decision to curb banana imports and block tourism. However, the comparatively low level of economic engagement means that Chinese economic sanctions are not enough to make Manila bend, at least for now. For instance, the Philippines has been able to offset the loss of the Chinese market for its bananas by exporting to the U.S.

Nevertheless, the rise of China and relative decline of the U.S. will continue to cast a long shadow over the SCS. Although some ASEAN countries have welcomed the U.S. rebalancing, most have developed deep economic ties with China over the years. The SCS thus has the potential to become a divisive issue within the regional grouping. This creates the impression among some Philippine leaders that ASEAN may no longer be a reliable or effective forum for engaging China on the SCS issue. Countries that have traditional and unresolved disputes with China, like Japan and India, may extend some support to smaller SCS claimants, but their commitment when push comes to shove remains to be seen.

The SCS has strategic, security, economic and political importance for both the Philippines and Vietnam. Both countries see their claimed SCS areas as vital elements of national security, important trade channels, traditional fishing grounds and a source of indigenous offshore energy resources, not to mention as integral components of their territory. However, particular historical, economic and politico-security considerations have prompted the two countries to develop divergent SCS strategies, especially in terms of dealing with China.

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Looks like the Vietnamese is smarter than Filipino. In fact, I applause the Vietnamese for being smart afterall they are a historically a sinosphere country as oppose to the Philippine.
 
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@Chinese-Dragon Makes no sense, pardon me but I haven't been keeping track of the far east, since I haven't heard of any overt tensions between PRC and Malaysia. They might have a dispute in the SCS but so far Malaysia wasn't sounding the bugle about it. What gives, what sort of relations does Malaysia have with the States and Japan?

Its odd though. Australia is just about to get its LHD (Navantia's Athlas 26000/Canberra, the first of a pair), Japan has understood the worth of a LHA with the larger Izumo and Textron LCAC combo, South Korea already operates the Dokdo. It seems as if everyone in the region is going majorly amphib (something that used to be strictly the US's purview in the last two decades). Now even India is going the LHD way. Lets not forget China's Type-071 LPDs and the Zubr (the latter meant for independent and relatively short legged ops). Let us see what sort of force projection Malaysia is planing, a pair of LPDs will do the job (from DCNS, Navantia or perhaps the Netherlands might pitch in with its co-developed amphib). Good times ahead for the OEMs.
 
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Oh please trying to make us fight and how are you measure intelligence what is your credentials to make such an assessment?

While everyone knows this front is nothing more than fit by you imperials because your not getting what you guys want heck your claims have no real basis on anything.
 
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Malaysia to construct naval base in disputed South China Sea.

Malaysia's defense minister Hishammuddin Hussein declared on Oct. 10 that a new naval base will be constructed in the Bintulu Division of Sarawak, which is only 100 kilometers away from James Shoal, the southernmost point of the disputed Spratly islands, reports the Janes Defense Weekly.

The move aims to solidify the Malaysia's position over the disputed South China Sea, and the primary mission of the Royal Malaysian Navy base will be to protect its oil reserves in the surrounding areas, the report said. The defense minister said that a new Marine Corps unit will also be established for amphibious operations in Bintulu to defend the eastern Malaysian state from Sulu rebels. Hussein said that most of the unit's personnel will be drawn from the other three branches of the Malaysian armed forces. Meanwhile, he added that Malaysian security forces had successfully defeated a Sulu incursion in Sabah earlier this year.

The Janes Defense Weekly pointed out that the bulk of this new marine unit stationed in Bintulu will be redesignated from one of the 10th Parachute brigade's three battalions. In addition, officers and enlisted men from the 9th Royal Malay Regiment and 8th Royal Ranger Regiment may also be drawn because most of them have already received training in amphibious warfare and have experience in conducting joint landing exercises with the United States and France.

Hussein did not mention the potential threat of China to the sovereignty of Malaysia in the South China Sea, however. The People's Liberation Army Navy conducted an exercise on Mar. 26 near James Shoal in a show of strength that the Spratly islands is part of China's territory. Regarding Hussien's annoucements, the Global Times, a tabloid under the auspices of the Communist Party mouthpiece the People's Daily, said that the Malaysian navy may launch an amphibious attack from the new naval base in Bintulu.

The Spratly islands are contested territory in the South China Sea. The group of more than 750 reefs, islets, atolls, cays and islands are claimed in whole or in part by China, Malaysia, the Philippines, Brunei, Vietnam and Taiwan.

Malaysia to construct naval base in disputed South China Sea
 
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