South China Sea Forum

[HRM YANG]

I agree. We vouch for China as the replacement of America in the region. An Asian power-one of ours emerging is a double win for Pakistan. America has only demanded from Pakistan and given nothing. China is the exact opposite. It has never interfered in our internal affairs nor has it supported dictators and terrorists of all colours just to defeat the soviets. We stand united against terrorism and hegemonal forces like the US.

US is always interest oriented, what can you expect from their alignments?

 

[Zsari]

you make it sound like this wasn't the plan all along

Preplanned or not, China has the justification to do so after US incursion. Like its been said, the whole episode looks like a pre-arranged show. Both side got what they wanted.

 

[Viet]

An aircraft carrier would not come that close to the vicinity of the island, because it would not risk to get grounded.

That's why the USN is constantly sending the smaller and more flexible cruiser or destroyer.
.

the US deployed 22 aircraft carriers during the Vietnam war. they know the SC Sea in and out. you are guessing too much. and mostly wrong.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

the US deployed 22 aircraft carriers during the Vietnam war. they know the SC Sea in and out. you are guessing too much. and mostly wrong.

But not within the 12 nautical miles from Vietnam's coast.

 

[Zsari]

That's China's fault for previously arguing that its own fishing arrangements with Japan compromised Japan's claims to sovereignty in disputed regions, yes? link You guys dug this hole yourselves, but I think if you pretend it never happened and stop thinking about what ROC might do that will be the most profitable and face-saving approach.

The two are completely unrelated. After Japanese declaration to nationalize the Diaoyu island, it was challenged by both PRC & ROC. There were even a three way jousting on the sea between the Taiwan fishing boat, the Japanese coast guard and the Chinese maritime patrol boat. As the result Japan extended an invitation to ROC for a fishing rights agreement just to take ROC out of the equation. As you can see, without resolving the internal issue between PRC & ROC, China does not have a united front to best serve its interest. As such China will delay any meaningful negotiation at this point.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

There is an easier way: just sit and watch US crush CN to pieces there and take back the isls while CN collapse.

Thats what Cnese call: win without fighting

if they could, they would, but they can't, so we don't. Remember the last time naval action happened in SCS ?

 

[Penguin]

Like I've already said, innocent passage have specific protocols to follow. For example you can't launch on board helicopter, you can't turn on your radar etc. Unless the US specifically stated it is exercising innocent passage, the chance are that it is not.
Chinese naval vessels on the other hand are transiting through the Bering Strait, which according to UNCLOS on Straits, is called transit passage, which has less restrictive requirements than innocent passage. The two actions are actually very different legally speaking. And you know what's the biggest difference between the two? That innocent passage can be suspended by the costal state while transit passage cannot be.

After Months of Waiting, US Finally Begins Freedom of Navigation Patrols Near China's Man-Made Islands
The USS Lassen sailed within 12 nautical miles of a Chinese man-made island on October 27, 2015.

By Ankit Panda for The Diplomat
October 27, 2015

Early Tuesday morning, the U.S. Navy confirmed that the USS Lassen, an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer, had completed the first in a series of planned freedom of navigation operations (FONOPs) in the South China Sea. The operation is the strongest assertion yet by the U.S. Navy that it rejects any maritime claims for Chinese features that were submerged at low-tide in their original, pre-land reclamation state.

The FONOP does not, as some reporting has suggested, directly challenge or contest the sovereignty of specific maritime features in the South China Sea. The United States continues to take no position on the actual sovereignty of various disputed maritime features in the South China Sea.

Based on the reports available at the time of this writing, the U.S. Navy has not specified the exact location or duration of the Lassen‘s passage. A U.S. defense official confirmed to the Wall Street Journal, however, that the destroyer had “navigated through the waters around at least one of the land masses to which China lays claim within the Spratly chain of islands in the South China Sea.” As I noted earlier, a U.S. official had told Reuters that the only two possible features where the Lassen could have carried out an operation are Subi and Mischief Reefs–two features that are “low-tide elevations” under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

Per UNCLOS, these features are entitled to no special consideration for a maritime exclusion zone outside of a 500 meter navigational safety zone. The Journal‘s report specifies that the Lassen did not conform to “innocent passage” standards under UNCLOS as doing so could imply de facto recognition of Chinese territorial waters, defeating the purpose of the FONOP.

Reuters notes that Chinese authorities are still working to verify whether the Lassen did indeed sail within 12 nautical miles of either Subi or Mischief Reef. However, China’s foreign minister has already commented on the FONOP. According to reports, Wang Yi noted that “If true, we advise the U.S. to think again and before acting, not act blindly or make trouble out of nothing.”

The foreign minister’s use of “think again” suggests that China will likely not retaliate harshly for this particular episode, but is issuing a warning for future FONOPs. Earlier, the Chinese foreign ministry had noted that China would “never allow any country” to violate its territorial waters. That China did not directly intercept or attempt to interdict the Lassen suggests that Beijing’s language is stronger than its actual resolve to act to defend the waters around its man-made islands.

Now that the United States has officially started FONOPs within 12 nautical miles of man-made features, it will follow up with additional patrols near features that have been developed and reclaimed by Vietnam and the Philippines, according to a U.S. official who spoke to Reuters ahead of the Lassen‘s patrol. “This is something that will be a regular occurrence, not a one-off event,” the official noted, adding that FONOPs will not be “unique to China.”

Editor’s Note: This is a developing story and will be closely followed by The Diplomat in the coming days.

Update: a U.S. official, speaking anonymously, has told the Associated Press that the USS Lassen sailed within 12 nautical miles of Subi Reef.

There's your answer in terms of the US(N) position.

 

[Penguin]

In International Law, international waterways are straits, canals, and rivers that connect two areas of the high seas or enable ocean shipping to reach interior ports on international seas, gulfs, or lakes that otherwise would be land-locked. International waterways also may be rivers that serve as international boundaries or traverse successively two or more states. Ships have a right of passage through international waterways.

The South China Sea by definition does not fall into the category of international waterway, or you can designate the entire world's ocean as international waterway. The below article is the only relevant restriction on artificial structures that it should not interfere with the use of recognized sea lanes. It is designed for narrow waterway and can't certainly be applied to vast sea, as I have yet to see anyone use that article as a justification against the Chinese construction.

Article 60
Artificial islands, installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone
7. Artificial islands, installations and structures and the safety zones around them may not be established where interference may be caused to the use of recognized sea lanes essential to international navigation.

About 30 percent of global trade passes through the South China Sea.
If its not an international waterway, as you say, then essentially it is high seas aka international seas. Unless you claim SCS is a (semi-) enclosed sea and China is a geographically disadvantaged state...

Re. artificial structures: construction allowed the coastal state in its EEZ (i.e. up to 200nmi from its coast) or construction allowed the coastal state in in high seas (implying no preexisting sovereignty as one would have e.g. with an naturally formed island).

TERRITORIAL SEA AND CONTIGUOUS ZONE
SECTION 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 2 Legal status of the territorial sea, of the air space over the territorial sea and of its bed and subsoil
1. The sovereignty of a coastal State extends, beyond its land territory and internal waters and, in the case of an archipelagic State, its archipelagic waters, to an adjacent belt of sea, described as the territorial sea.
2. This sovereignty extends to the air space over the territorial sea as well as to its bed and subsoil.
3. The sovereignty over the territorial sea is exercised subject to this Convention and to other rules of international law.

SECTION 2. LIMITS OF THE TERRITORIAL SEA
Article 3 Breadth of the territorial sea
Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.

Article 4 Outer limit of the territorial sea
The outer limit of the territorial sea is the line every point of which is at a distance from the nearest point of the baseline equal to the breadth of the territorial sea.

Article 5 Normal baseline
Except where otherwise provided in this Convention, the normal baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea is the low-water line along the coast as marked on large-scale charts officially recognized by the coastal State.

Article 6 Reefs
In the case of islands situated on atolls or of islands having fringing reefs, the baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea is the seaward low-water line of the reef, as shown by the appropriate symbol on charts officially recognized by the coastal State.

Article 13 Low-tide elevations
1. A low-tide elevation is a naturally formed area of land which is surrounded by and above water at low tide but submerged at high tide. Where a low-tide elevation is situated wholly or partly at a distance not exceeding the breadth of the territorial sea from the mainland or an island, the low-water line on that elevation may be used as the baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea.
2. Where a low-tide elevation is wholly situated at a distance exceeding the breadth of the territorial sea from the mainland or an island, it has no territorial sea of its own.

SECTION 3. INNOCENT PASSAGE IN THE TERRITORIAL SEA
SUBSECTION A. RULES APPLICABLE TO ALL SHIPS
Article 17 Right of innocent passage
Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.

Article 18 Meaning of passage
1. Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.
2. Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress
or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.

Article 19 Meaning of innocent passage
1. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.
2. Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities:
(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;
(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;
(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;
(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;
(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;
(h) any act of wilful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;
(i) any fishing activities;
(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;
(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication
or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

Article 24 Duties of the coastal State
1. The coastal State shall not hamper the innocent passage of foreign ships through the territorial sea except in accordance with this Convention. In particular, in the application of this Convention or of any laws or
regulations adopted in conformity with this Convention, the coastal State shall not:
(a) impose requirements on foreign ships which have the practical effect of denying or impairing the right of innocent passage; or
(b) discriminate in form or in fact against the ships of any State or against ships carrying cargoes to, from or on behalf of any State.
2. The coastal State shall give appropriate publicity to any danger to navigation, of which it has knowledge, within its territorial sea.

SECTION 4. CONTIGUOUS ZONE
Article 33 Contiguous zone [compare to territorial sea]
1. In a zone contiguous to its territorial sea, described as the contiguous zone, the coastal State may exercise the control necessary to:
(a) prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial
sea;
(b) punish infringement of the above laws and regulations committed within its territory or territorial sea.
2. The contiguous zone may not extend beyond 24 nautical miles from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured.

SECTION 2. TRANSIT PASSAGE
Article 37 Scope of this section
This section applies to straits which are used for international navigation between one part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and another part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone.

Article 39 Duties of ships and aircraft during transit passage
1. Ships and aircraft, while exercising the right of transit passage, shall:
(a) proceed without delay through or over the strait;
(b) refrain from any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of States bordering the strait, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;
(c) refrain from any activities other than those incident to their normal modes of continuous and expeditious transit unless
rendered necessary by force majeure or by distress;
(d) comply with other relevant provisions of this Part.
2. Ships in transit passage shall:
(a) comply with generally accepted international regulations, procedures and practices for safety at sea, including the
International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea;
(b) comply with generally accepted international regulations, procedures and practices for the prevention, reduction and
control of pollution from ships.
3. Aircraft in transit passage shall:
(a) observe the Rules of the Air established by the International Civil Aviation Organization as they apply to civil aircraft; state aircraft will normally comply with such safety measures and will at all times operate with due regard for the safety of
navigation;
(b) at all times monitor the radio frequency assigned by the competent internationally designated air traffic control authority or the appropriate international distress radio frequency.

Article 40 Research
and survey activities
During transit passage, foreign ships, including marine scientific research and hydrographic survey ships, may not carry out any research or survey activities without the prior authorization of the States bordering straits.

PART V
EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE [compare territorial sea]
Article 55 Specific legal regime of the exclusive economic zone
The exclusive economic zone is an area beyond and adjacent to the territorial sea, subject to the specific legal regime established in this Part, under which the rights and jurisdiction of the coastal State and the rights and
freedoms of other States are governed by the relevant provisions of this Convention.

Article 57 Breadth of the exclusive economic zone
The exclusive economic zone shall not extend beyond 200 nautical miles from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured.

Article 58 Rights and duties of other States in the exclusive economic zone
1. In the exclusive economic zone, all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

Article 60 Artificial islands, installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone
1. In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State shall have the exclusive right to construct and to authorize and regulate the construction, operation and use of:

(a) artificial islands;
(b) installations and structures for the purposes provided for in article 56 and other economic purposes;
(c) installations and structures which may interfere with the exercise of the rights of the coastal State in the zone.
...
4. The coastal State may, where necessary, establish reasonable safety zones around such artificial islands, installations and structures in which it may take appropriate measures to ensure the safety both of navigation and of the artificial islands, installations and structures.
5. The breadth of the safety zones shall be determined by the coastal State, taking into account applicable international standards. Such zones shall be designed to ensure that they are reasonably related to the nature and function of the artificial islands, installations or structures, and shall not exceed a distance of 500 metres around them, measured from each point of their outer edge, except as authorized by generally accepted international standards or as recommended by the competent international organization. Due notice shall be given of the extent of safety zones.

Article 70 Right of geographically disadvantaged States
1. Geographically disadvantaged States shall have the right to participate, on an equitable basis, in the exploitation of an appropriate part of the surplus of the living resources of the exclusive economic zones of coastal States of the same subregion or region, taking into account the relevant economic and geographical circumstances of all the States concerned and in conformity with the provisions of this article and of articles 61 and 62.
2. For the purposes of this Part, "geographically disadvantaged States" means coastal States, including States bordering enclosed or semi-enclosed seas, whose geographical situation makes them dependent upon the exploitation of the living resources of the exclusive economic zones of other States in the subregion or region for adequate supplies of fish for the
nutritional purposes of their populations or parts thereof, and coastal States which can claim no exclusive economic zones of their own.

PART VI
CONTINENTAL SHELF
Article 76 Definition of the continental shelf
1. The continental shelf of a coastal State comprises the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas that extend beyond its territorial sea throughout the natural prolongation of its land territory to the outer edge of the continental margin, or to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured where the
outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance.

Article 78 Legal status of the superjacent waters and air space and the rights and freedoms of other States
1. The rights of the coastal State over the continental shelf do not affect the legal status of the superjacent waters or of the air space above those waters.
2. The exercise of the rights of the coastal State over the continental shelf must not infringe or result in any unjustifiable interference with navigation and other rights and freedoms of other States as provided for in this Convention.

Article 80 Artificial islands, installations and structures on the continental shelf
Article 60 applies mutatis mutandis to artificial islands, installations and
structures on the continental shelf.

PART VII
HIGH SEAS
SECTION 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 86 Application of the provisions of this Part
The provisions of this Part apply to all parts of the sea that are not included in the exclusive economic zone, in the territorial sea or in the internal waters of a State, or in the archipelagic waters of an archipelagic
State. This article does not entail any abridgement of the freedoms enjoyed by all States in the exclusive economic zone in accordance with article 58.

Article 87 Freedom of the high seas
1. The high seas are open to all States, whether coastal or land-locked.
Freedom of the high seas is exercised under the conditions laid down by this
convention and by other rules of international law. It comprises, inter alia,
both for coastal and land-locked States:
(a) freedom of navigation;
(b) freedom of overflight;
(c) freedom to lay submarine cables and pipelines, subject to
Part VI;
(d) freedom to construct artificial islands and other installations permitted under international law, subject to Part VI;
(e) freedom of fishing, subject to the conditions laid down in section 2;
(f) freedom of scientific research, subject to Parts VI and XIII.
2. These freedoms shall be exercised by all States with due regard for the interests of other States in their exercise of the freedom of the high seas, and also with due regard for the rights under this Convention with respect to activities in the Area.

Article 88 Reservation of the high seas for peaceful purposes
The high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes.

Article 89 Invalidity of claims of sovereignty over the high seas

No State may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.


Article 90 Right of navigation

Every State, whether coastal or land-locked, has the right to sail ships flying its flag on the high seas.

Article 95 Immunity of warships on the high seas

Warships on the high seas have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State.


Article 96

Immunity of ships used only on government non-commercial service

Ships owned or operated by a State and used only on government non-commercial service shall, on the high seas, have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State.

PART VIII
REGIME OF ISLANDS
Article 121
Regime of islands
1. An island is a naturally formed area of land, surrounded by water, which is above water at high tide.
2. Except as provided for in paragraph 3, the territorial sea, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf of an island are determined in accordance with the provisions of this Convention
applicable to other land territory.
3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf.

PART IX

ENCLOSED OR SEMI-ENCLOSED SEAS

Article 122 Definition

For the purposes of this Convention, "enclosed or semi-enclosed sea" means a gulf, basin or sea surrounded by two or more States and connected to another sea or the ocean by a narrow outlet or consisting entirely or primarily of the territorial seas and exclusive economic zones of two or more coastal States.

 

[Zsari]

About 30 percent of global trade passes through the South China Sea.
If its not an international waterway, as you say, then essentially it is high seas aka international seas. Unless you claim SCS is a (semi-) enclosed sea and China is a geographically disadvantaged state...

Re. artificial structures: construction allowed the coastal state in its EEZ (i.e. up to 200nmi from its coast) or construction allowed the coastal state in in high seas (implying no preexisting sovereignty as one would have e.g. with an naturally formed island).

Isn't that exactly what I've said? The freedom to construct artificial islands and other installations are permitted by international law.

The point refers to sovereignty (territorial) claims on the one hand, EEZ on the other and what international shipping can/cannot do in an EEZ. AFAIK, under international law, navies can conduct activities in waters beyond the territorial sea of another state without prior notification or consent including in an exclusive economic zone of another country. See e.g. Impeccable incident re. attempts at stopping surface traffic ( a Chinese intelligence collection ship challenged Impeccable over bridge-to-bridge radio, calling her operations illegal and directing Impeccable to leave the area or 'suffer the consequences').

The high seas are open to all States, whether coastal or land-locked. Freedom of the high seas is exercised under the conditions laid down by this Convention and by other rules of international law. It comprises, inter alia, both for coastal and land-locked States:
(a) freedom of navigation;
(b) freedom of overflight;
(c) freedom to lay submarine cables and pipelines, subject to Part VI;
(d) freedom to construct artificial islands and other installations permitted under international law, subject to Part VI;
(e) freedom of fishing, subject to the conditions laid down in section 2;
(f) freedom of scientific research, subject to Parts VI and XIII.

US simply includes all military activities as navigation which China disagrees, at least in its near shore.

 

[Akasa]

The HQ-9 SAM is now deployed on the islands.

View attachment 267946

View attachment 267947

Those are 400-km-range YJ-62 anti-ship missiles, not HQ-9 systems.

 

[Elkanah]

To me the Chinese have 1 play left short of physical confrontation they must withdraw from UNCLOS

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

go study the Hitler-Stalin Nichtangriffspakt of 1939.
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And how did that one turn out?

Even someone who has never studied history will know that the non-aggression pact between Germany and Russia in 1939 did not go well in the end.

 

[Zsari]

To me the Chinese have 1 play left short of physical confrontation they must withdraw from UNCLOS

On the contrary, China should work to expanding the UNCLOS. In the same spirit of the cannon shot rule that created the 1st 3nm territorial water, with today's technology, there should create a maritime defense zone in the near shore that cannot be used to endanger the security of the costal state.

 

[HRM YANG]

CN collapsed about 100 times in history

Both of your math and history teachers feel ashamed for what you said

 

[HRM YANG]

the US deployed 22 aircraft carriers during the Vietnam war. they know the SC Sea in and out. you are guessing too much. and mostly wrong.

How rampant the USN was in the Viet-war is because of how fragile the Vietnam was, At that time, you can take a look back by yourself. you completely had noway to scrape some US carrier's coating down, we are not Vietnam, what American dare to do is just dispatched a destroyer to do "De passage inoffensif" . maybe nexttime for a higher speed of escape and saving the fuel tje little LCS with a 6pounds gun could do better?
I am completely speechless to you...