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South China Sea Forum

Year, SCS(east sea) just like a stranglehold around China-Korea-Japan's neck coz most of oil-raw material import from those countries must pass by SCS(east sea)

And VN is controlling that stranglehold since we fought hard to take it back from mighty American , thanks for Phillipine help, the stranglehold is much tighter now :D

No wonder you guys are fighting hard over it, all wars are ultimately about oil I see.....:-)
 
No wonder you guys are fighting hard over it, all wars are ultimately about oil I see.....:-)
U r ally of China, but I think u should make friend with other nations that even having conflict wt China too. We r small country, we want peace, we can not harm any one. We just try to protect ourselves against the bullier, thats all
 
U r ally of China, but I think u should make friend with other nations that even having conflict wt China too. We r small country, we want peace, we can not harm any one. We just try to protect ourselves against the bullier, thats all

No mate, my government is ally of China, I am no ones ally....:-), and all countries have a right to defend their interests so no objection there.....
 
This might be an incredibly naive question... but is there anyway the Vietnam, China and The Philippines could sit down and come to some sort of fair arrangement regarding SCS waters/islands? Or, are the countries just to far apart for agreement?
 
This might be an incredibly naive question... but is there anyway the Vietnam, China and The Philippines could sit down and come to some sort of fair arrangement regarding SCS waters/islands? Or, are the countries just to far apart for agreement?
I think we will not have any agreement unless China return all islands they robe from VN-Phil.

And war is Ok with VNese, we've had so many war already, one more war doesnt change anything in VN.
 
I think we will not have any agreement unless China return all islands they robe from VN-Phil.

And war is Ok with VNese, we've had so many war already, one more war doesnt change anything in VN.

The only thieves are Vietnam and the Philippines. Vietnam acknowledged that the Spratlys and Paracels were Chinese during the Vietnam war, and started their backstabing after America left.

Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books

Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books

In fact during this period, when Hanoi was relying heavily on the Chinese for support, the Hanoi authorities seem to have recognized the Spratlys and the Paracels as Chinese territories. Three bits of evidence for this are often cited by China.33 The first is a statement by Vietnamese Deputy Foreign Minister Ung Van Khien to Chinese Deputy Foreign Minister Li Zhimin in which the former indicated that Vietnam had recognized the Paracels and the Spratlys as Chinese territory since the days of the Song dynasty. The second is Pham Van Dong's letter dated September 14, 1958. It supported China's statement, extending its territorial waters twelve nautical miles. The statement clearly mentioned the Paracels and Spratlys by name as belonging to China. Third, in May 1965, the (North) Vietnamese Foreign Ministry criticized the United States for defining "part of China's Paracels" as a "fighting operation area."34

When victory was finally attained over the South, however, Hanoi was anxious to pick up all the pieces and claims left by the fallen regime. It acknowledged later that it had indeed previously acquiesced in China's claims to the islands but argued that times since then had changed.

At that time, Vietnam had to struggle against American intervention and aggression. . . . During this period, China regarded American imperialism as its main enemy and firmly supported the anti-American war of the Vietnamese people and was the "Vietnamese people's great rear base." China was one of the biggest aid donors to Vietnam. In the anti-American struggle, China and Vietnam became real friends. Relations between the two were "as close as lips and teeth." . . . During this period of opposing a much stronger enemy, the more Vietnam could let China fight hand in hand with Vietnam, the more advantageous for Vietnam to prevent America from using these two archipelagoes, and avoid attacks from the South China Sea [the East Sea in Vietnamese]. We have to understand the above statements in this spirit.36

With this rationale, in 1975 Vietnam asserted its claims to both the Paracels and the Spratlys and physically took possession of the six Spratly islands that the former South Vietnamese regime had occupied. In later years other islands were added.

Britain first found Chinese fishermen from Hainan on the Spratly islands, then they launched the first modern legal claims to the islands.

Security and International Politics in the South China Sea: Towards a co ... - Google Books

War Or Peace in the South China Sea? - Google Books

Dictionary of Contemporary Chinese Military History - Larry M. Wortzel, Robin D. S. Higham - Google Books

The Republic of China (Taiwan) garrisoned, claimed and occupied the Spratly islands before Vietnam was even independent from France in the 1930s. It was the first asian country to claim and garrison the islands and Chinese fishermen were there before Vietnam. Philippines did not claim the islands until the 1970s under Marcos.

Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books

Where in the World is the Philippines?: Debating Its National Territory - Rodolfo Severino - Google Books

The Law of the Sea and Northeast Asia: A Challenge for Cooperation - HÅi-gwŏn Pak - Google Books

Spratly Islands (reefs, South China Sea) -- Encyclopedia Britannica
 
Xisha Islands or Paracel Islands
Yongxing Dao, Yung-hsing Tao, Woody Island
2014 Feb 07
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*I won't discuss actual military hardware here, not that I don't think it's important, but modern warefare is a game of cash, whoever can pump the most into it wins. Of course there are other factors, but most of it revolve around the generation and availability of money.

*my own piece and my two cent.

2142648_orig.jpg



South China sea dispute will not bring any actual conflicts between China and ASEAN. The difference in strength is apparent, and with no way of waging guerrilla warfare on the seas, it's also not a matter of occupation.

The "arms race" of Asia is not an actual thing, for as much as been talked about China's military spending, the total percentage in relation to GDP has actually dropped this year and has almost never exceeded such nations as US, UK, France, or even India and sometimes Italy. It's also getting close to Japan in terms of percentage, a nation that's constitutionally not allowed to make war.

The one factor that's delaying the inevitable is the United States of America, the most powerful force in Asia and the world, for now.

The tension stems not from the fact that China is "causing trouble," for China has been the hegemon in the area more or less for the last 2000 years and peace was the way of life for much of that period. Nor is it from the accusation of claiming seas and violating international laws. I will talk about this point later in the post.

The trouble is from the China US rivalry and the past 20 years of craziness, including the great leap forward the cultural revolution, and such, as well as the hundred years of humiliation that dropped Chinese prestige all the way to bottom of the barrel.

There is no ill feeling from me, a Chinese, who understands the reputation China has because of those things, it is not a thing of prestige to say one is working with China, and worse to stand below it. The US here offers an attractive alternative, the land of opportunity, the land of the free. The nation that has won the cold war and became the sole super power in the world and could determined the fate of any nation at the drop of a hat.

This is like NBA, playing for Cleavland Cavs, and LA Lakers, or playing for Real Madrid or Atletico Madrid.

But just as Japan changed its image of a low end manufacturing nation to that of a high tech one, so too will China, that is not a prediction, but a natural order of things. Much like no one would question the growth of a person.

Now let's go back to the my claim, that the nine dash line isn't what's causing the tension. Chinese claim and Western claim is very different. Since ancient times China has only demanded tribute from neighboring nations, while the West colonizes. The fundamental understanding of "my" is different from China to US.

Chinese nine dash line, when realize won't result in banning of foreign fishing, or mining of energy, it would actually be exactly how it is, but with China as the protector of the ocean instead of the US.

You can doubt my claim if you wish, but it's what is apparent is that the ultimate goal for the China is the rejuvenation of the Chinese nation, not the monopoly of all Asian resources. Look at China in Africa, we give loans and we give infrastructure, regardless of what the West have painted China in Africa, there are roads, and rails that otherwise won't be there. The mining efficiency has dramatically increased in Chinese invest countries, and China is polled as an example to follow by many African nations. I can show source for this if anyone is interested.

China wants a place in the world that would fit someone of her size and strength, she wants to be seen as the shinning light of the world, the goal is to be benevolent, not insane. If you want more proof, Ming dynasty, China sent Zheng He, and diplomat that created trade, the West sent Columbus, looking for new land. (yea I know he went searching for trade route, but you get my meaning)

Regarding resource, it's not as simple as owning the ocean and extract resource like a mad man. America didn't ship oil from Afgan straight to the US after it conquered it for much of the same reason. I won't go too deep in it, but world economy isn't playing house, especially in today's world. This talk of China wanting the resource is true, but not in the way most would have you believe. Nobody is trying to pee in the ocean.

So that brings us back to China US rivalry, the cause of the tension, and my assertion that South China sea conflict will end in a whimper and not a bang.

The US doesn't want to give up it's position as the leader of Asia and the world. If she does give up on the China seas, she would have effectively given up both. However, much like how the Soviets knew they couldn't keep up the cold war much longer back in the 80s. Americans today must know they cannot stay in Asia forever.

It has become increasingly evident that China will past the US within a decade's time as the number one in nominal GDP, and then, the gap would widen. The Chinese engineers and other graduates are out numbering the US almost 2 to 1 if not more and soon it will be much more.

In the past this would have resulted in a war and the winner would advance. But with the invention of nuclear weapons, globalization, and the the way people look at war, government in general, it is very unlikely for the US and China to actually clash in the present. For unlike WW1 and WW2, no one in the states will be cheering for war on the streets like those wars past, and it's also one of the main reasons I don't think war will be likely. Times have changed.

Finally, if my arguments prove to be right, that the US will have to pull out of Asia one way or another, China and ASEAN will no longer have any obstacles in obtaining a deal that would suit both. With it would being an end to this tension in Asia, and will truly begin the Asian century.
 
But the question is can China maintain this GDP growth till it passes the US and even if it does The US would still be in a better position due to the respective populations so the US presence in ASEAN is to stay for a very long time as i see it?

And another question is that of Japan which as we all know is not a weak nation what if it starts an arms race with China and relations go beyond repair point?
 
But the question is can China maintain this GDP growth till it passes the US and even if it does The US would still be in a better position due to the respective populations so the US presence in ASEAN is to stay for a very long time as i see it?

And another question is that of Japan which as we all know is not a weak nation what if it starts an arms race with China and relations go beyond repair point?

It doesn't matter if China can or not, China growing 6-7% until we reach and slightly exceed US gdp, and then grow 4-5%, and then 3-4%, we will still be well on track to our economic goals. We will always grow, because we have a huge home market, our businessmen will have the unfair advantage of overwhelming home court support.

Most first venture for businesses are local, while it would eventually expend international if local is successful. Like a business in a small town is a lot harder to succeed compare to one from Beijing, it is the same with countries. Japan and even the US will be smaller markets relative to China, and our businesses will have massive exposure and before even hitting international.

I didn't explain that very well, but hopefully you get my drift. It's late here.

The US presence could stay, but it will no longer be dominate, I foresee the US withdrawing to battle China in a neutral battle ground, Africa, or South America, and middle east. Though middle east and Africa is more likely. Staying in Asia after the shift in power for America is pointless and Americans won't waste resources to do something pointless, especially if they have none to spare.


Japan isn't weak, if her neighbor is anyone but China, even America, she would have a chance, but it is China. At still 6000 per capita, a low end developing nation, we are double her GDP, imagine when we reach semi developed with in a decade.

Also, China is poor, but we have around the same number of people as rich or more so than Japan right now, it's just that the rest of the population is poor. So in essence we have created a Japan like state within China, it's just that as time goes on we will have more and more of these "states."

Japan won't risk confrontation, especially one she cannot win. An arms race is something she won't even come close to matching, much less winning. We could go 10 million battle ready troops with the drop of a hat, that same number is 1/10th of Japanese population.

Relationship will be good, for all it's cracked up to be, China Japan relationship at the worst of times wasn't as bad as Britain and France were, or Germany and Europe was. Remember just little over 10 years ago China and Japan was on very good terms.
 
US economy is double than Chinese economy. So unless Chinese GDP grows 2 time, there is not any narrowing of GAP. If Chinese GDP grows more than 2 times of that of US, the gap will narrow. If US grows at 3 %, China need to grow above 6 % to narrow the GAP.
 
US economy is double than Chinese economy. So unless Chinese GDP grows 2 time, there is not any narrowing of GAP. If Chinese GDP grows more than 2 times of that of US, the gap will narrow. If US grows at 3 %, China need to grow above 6 % to narrow the GAP.

They were not double of our GDP since 2012.
 
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