South Asia Air Forces: PAF counters IAF strategy

[paritosh]

well it seems we are both last word freaks...the other side of the terabite long debate was your side...
well i think that the pakistani missiles are copies of north korean and chinese missiles...does it matter what i think or are you happy that the outcome of the last debate on this forum was in your favour...?

 

[Jihad]

I have read the thread previously as well IceCold. At the end i have also seen credible reports from credible organizations saying just the same-exactly what i have said.

Lastly-answer me this, do you think Babur has been developed by Pakistan?

Give me a break, we all know India can develop everything in the world and Pakistanis simply cannot compete with the Indians.
Want a tap on your back too?
I hope you feel better now.

 

[Contrarian]

Give me a break, we all know India can develop everything in the world and Pakistanis simply cannot compete with the Indians.
Want a tap on your back too?
I hope you feel better now.

I did not and do not imply that India can develop everything. We have been very successful in failing to develop a lot of things. But i'd like to point out here, that Pakistan does not really even try to develop most of the things. Most of it is bought and shown as Pakistani. Babur for example, its not exactly Pakistani. Pakistan has taken the easier path constantly, while you may attribute this to lack of resources, finance, etc. But the point remains valid. Pakistan has not really invested in its industrial or research base to come up most times with state of the art technology.

My question to you was simple, which turbofan does the Babur use?

In the end however, that does not take away the lethality of the missile of its capabilities. That the missile is in possession of Pakistan which would use it is certain, and thus the other points become moot.

 

[IceCold]

Babur for example, its not exactly Pakistani.

You haven't proved it otherwise malay about it not being Pakistani. Just by saying it is not exactly a Pakistani does not make it one. By the way i am still waiting for the article that you wanted me to read.

 

[Patriot]

Malay..Can you actually provide credible evidence that Babur is not Pakistani made missile besides your usual bs?

 

[Contrarian]

Malay..Can you actually provide credible evidence that Babur is not Pakistani made missile besides your usual bs?

I'd like to think i dont usually spout bs. Allow me my exceptions though.

Anyways, i am still trying to find that article. It was in Force Magazine. IIRC it was also reposted in PDF. I would appreciate if one of you guys could also search for it atleast in PDF.

 

[vandemataram]

Now instead of answering my question you decided to put another question that is not fair now is it? however let me try to answer, when Babur was tested for the 1st time the view expressed by Indians on this board was that Pakistan does not even have the capability to reverse engineer yet alone develop one. And i'm sure you shared the same opinion as you do now but then again did it fell from the sky no it did not, did the Chinese helped, nope because they too were far behind then and the same has been stated by Indians as well, the Americans didn't helped either with their TomaHawk question is how did we do it and not just we did it but we also managed to enhance its range. Now was that a surprise
Point i am trying to make is that just because you don't see our tests getting failed is not that we get the technology in a platter nor is it that we don't suffer failures however just to think that every time Pakistan develops something, it is immediately linked with an XYZ missile either in the Chinese inventory or perhaps the NK is indeed a low opinion and that is why i urged you to re read the thread because in that very thread there are some very creditable posts suggesting the clear cut difference between our missiles from the ones they are shown as a copy off.

A simple yet a vey pertinent quesion..the role of the Army, Navy and the Air Force come into play when the Government makes sure that they have followed a policy of economic emancipation and made sure that the country is not at risk of being disintegrated. Only then the Services shall have their role clearly spelled out, in terms of defending soverignty and territorial integrity.....does the Govt of India's western neighbour display or have displayed in its 60 years of existence any such tendency to its citizens??

 

[Keysersoze]

Malay..Can you actually provide credible evidence that Babur is not Pakistani made missile besides your usual bs?

Actually You will find that Malay is one of our better members. I would suggest treating him with a little more respect as he has never lowered himself to pettiness.

 

[IceCold]

A simple yet a vey pertinent quesion..the role of the Army, Navy and the Air Force come into play when the Government makes sure that they have followed a policy of economic emancipation and made sure that the country is not at risk of being disintegrated. Only then the Services shall have their role clearly spelled out, in terms of defending soverignty and territorial integrity.....does the Govt of India's western neighbour display or have displayed in its 60 years of existence any such tendency to its citizens??

How exactly is this related to my post? or did i miss something out here.

 

[white_pawn]

For many experts in weapons proliferation, cruise missiles are the most disturbing threat today.

Hezbollah's recent use of an Iranian variant of the Chinese "Silkworm" C-802 radar-guided anti-ship missile against an Israeli warship illustrates the larger trend. In the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse, the first Gulf War demonstrated America's unparalleled global power, which flowed, in part, from possession of a new class of weapons with near-surgical accuracy at great distances. Fifteen years later, another shift in the balance of global military power is occurring as missile technology--particularly, the cruise missile technology that was a hallmark feature of U.S. military supremacy--is being democratized.

Cruise missiles can be as sophisticated as the American AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile and its W80 nuclear warhead--which can strike targets 3,000 kilometers away, using guidance systems that hug satellite-mapped terrain--or as simple as small, unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) built from commercially-available kits. The German World War II-era V-1 "buzz bomb" even meets the definition of a cruise missile: an unmanned self-propelled guided aircraft that uses aerodynamic lift to deliver a payload to a target. Still, as Owen Cote, associate director of MIT's Security Studies Program, explains: "Antiship cruise missiles only need a relatively simple inertial navigation system and a radar return from their target, which is within the area the missile is launched at." Consequently, antiship cruise missile systems, being simpler and often shorter range, are generally the first kind of cruise missile acquired by states or organizations, such as Hezbollah.

The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a voluntary nonproliferation agreement involving 34 countries and supposedly limiting export of unmanned systems that can deliver weapons of mass destruction, defines a antiship cruise missile as having a range of less than 300 kilometers. A cruise missile is a Category II item--meaning, essentially, that it may be exported by any company that manufactures it. (Category I severely limits exports of ballistic missile systems, space-launch vehicles, and land-attack cruise missile systems.) Given that antiship cruise missiles can be converted to land-attack systems, the MTCR is a particularly leaky sieve. But American actions have also inadvertently helped spread the technology. In 1998, when the Clinton administration launched 75 Tomahawk cruise missiles at Osama bin Laden's bases in response to al Qaeda's bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, six of the missiles misfired and landed across the border in Pakistan. It has long been suspected that these unexploded missiles were studied by Pakistani and Chinese scientists. Ted Postol, a professor of science, technology, and international security at MIT, confirms this: "A Pakistani colleague of mine told me that a significant number of those missiles that we launched at Afghanistan actually landed in Pakistan and those guys reverse-engineered them."

The propulsion system of the Babur missile that Pakistan tested in 2005 definitely resembles that of the BGM-109 Tomahawk. After an initial launch by a solid-fuel booster, a cruise turbo fan engine cuts in, giving the Babur a speed of 880 kilometers per hour and a range of 500 kilometers. That Chinese assistance was a factor in developing the Babur's GPS- and INS-based guidance system is supported by its resemblance to the Chinese YJ-62 antiship cruise missile and the family resemblance of both missiles to the Tomahawk.

Technology Review: The Missiles of August--Part II

Bypassing the NMD - the Cruise Missile Proliferation Problem

 

[Contrarian]

IIRC, the Force report said that Babur was a dervative of a South African CM, with modifications and the like ofcourse. It had explicit details actually. Im really having a hard time finding it.

 

[linkinpark]

IIRC, the Force report said that Babur was a dervative of a South African CM, with modifications and the like ofcourse. It had explicit details actually. Im really having a hard time finding it.

Malay, I don't know about the Force magazine, but here is a report by Jane's Defence weekly.

ANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - AUGUST 12, 2005


PAKISTAN TESTS CRUISE MISSILE

Robert Hewson, Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons and
Andrew Koch JDW Bureau Chief
London and Washington, DC
Additional reporting by Farhan Bokhari
Islamabad, Pakistan

* The Pakistani Babur cruise missile seems to share several basic similarities with the US BGM-109 Tomahawk

* Pakistan's ultimate aim may be to field this weapon on its Agosta-class submarines

Pakistan has made public the first test launch of a new cruise missile system, the Babur (also known as the Hatf-VII), which was successfully flight-tested on 11 August. The launch is a significant step forward for its strategic arsenal.

Major General Shaukat Sultan, the Pakistan Army's chief spokesman, said that the weapon has a 500 km range and can be fitted with either a conventional or nuclear warhead. The Babur is described as a high-speed, low-level terrain-following missile, but Shaukat declined to provide specifics on its guidance or propulsion system. Neither is its payload capability known.

Film footage of the test launch shows the Babur being fired from a transporter erector launcher (TEL) by a solid rocket booster fitted to the missile's tail section. The booster drops away after a short initial phase and the missile transitions into forward flight with the deployment of pop-out wings and a ventral air intake for the main engine.

It is unclear whether the engine is a turbofan or turbojet power plant. However, in 2002 Pakistan announced development of a turbojet-powered aerial target called the Nishan-Mk 2TJ that analysts viewed as a preliminary step to developing a cruise missile.

The Babur test firing occurred at a previously undisclosed test range, Maj Gen Shaukat confirmed to JDW. This is understood to be located along the Baluchistan coast. A US intelligence official noted that additional tests are expected to be conducted using that area.

Pakistani scientist Samar Mubarak Mund, who heads the National Engineering and Scientific Commission that led the Babur programme, told the Pakistani newspaper The News that production of the missile would begin within a month.

The Babur appears to share several basic similarities with the US BGM-109 Tomahawk land attack cruise missile, with the two being roughly the same size and shape and having a similar wing and engine intake design. A Pakistani source with knowledge of the programme said the project began around 1998 and was bolstered by lessons learned from Tomahawk missiles recovered in Pakistan. These US Tomahawks had failed to reach intended targets in an August 1998 strike against a terrorist camp in Afghanistan; Pakistani officials at the time acknowledged that they had recovered at least two missiles. "I'm sure they must have learned from that ... they are quite good in reverse engineering," the source noted.

Additional assistance may also have come from Chinese scientists, who have collaborated closely with Pakistan on other missile developments. Chinese assistance would be especially important in the key areas of miniaturised jet engines and guidance systems and any lessons learned from the Tomahawk are sure to make their way back to Beijing.

There is also reason to believe that Pakistan has been working with Ukrainian engineers for a number of years on several elements of advanced missile capability, while a third element in Pakistan's opaque missile inventory is South Africa. Air-launched stand-off systems in the class of the Denel-developed Raptor and MUPSOW families are understood to be in Pakistan Air Force service. While these have no direct connection to the Babur, they are another technology source to draw upon.

Ultimately, Pakistani officials said, the Babur is being developed for land- and submarine-launched applications, with a longer-term goal of making it suitable for airborne launch. The Pakistani source said that the intention is to have the Babur deployable on the country's French-designed Agosta 90-class attack submarines, although he noted it does not appear the missile is small enough to fit into 533 mm torpedo tubes in its current configuration. The Babur's vertical launch mode also points to a possible ship-board configuration, which would be an obvious first step for such a missile.

The first reports of a possible Pakistan cruise missile emerged in mid-2004 when a test was predicted before the end of that year. None occurred, but just days before the 2005 launch Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf predicted that more missile tests would be undertaken soon. At the same time Pakistani officials were reported to be working on a new nuclear missile system that would be tested in the near future.

General Musharraf said that the Babur test was a "major milestone" in Pakistan's nuclear programme.

According to one high-ranking military source within Pakistan's Joint Staff HQ, the Babur "is an indigenous cruise missile that has been developed and produced in Pakistan", adding that the missile design "has no 'lineage' as such".

In a related development, JDW has learned that Pakistan is actively negotiating with China and France for the purchase of two or three new submarines. These same sources say that Islamabad aims to develop its first submarine-launched ballistic missile by 2006.

A senior Pakistani official told JDW that "expansion of our submarine fleet" represents the next stage in the development of Pakistan's strategic weapon capability. The navy will have nine submarines following the induction by next year of the last of three Agosta submarines acquired from France.

Pakistan's Babur cruise missile on its launcher and being flight tested. The launch of the missile is a "major milestone" in Pakistan's nuclear programme.

Source: Janes Defence

 

[Patriot]

Malay, I don't know about the Force magazine, but here is a report by Jane's Defence weekly.

Oh boy i hope it's true.We surely have reversed one of the best cruise missile in the world if it's true

 

[Xeric]

Talking about reverse engineering..here we go...

The Indian Drive towards Weaponization: the Agni Missile Program

After failing to reverse-engineer a SA-2 Guideline SAM as a viable

ballistic missile under Project Devil in the 1970s, India formed the

Integrated Guided Missile Development Program IGMDP in 1983 with the

aim of achieving self-sufficiency in missile development & production.

The Department of Defense notes that "the space program supports New

Delhi’s missile efforts through shared research, development and

production facilities." The two systems produced under the IGMDP that

are most likely to be a delivery vehicle for nuclear warheads are the

short range tactical missile, Prithvi SS-150 (Army) and SS-250

(Airforce), and the Agni-II Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile

(IRBM).
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Missile shield
oday, India has an inventory of powerful missiles, which include Agni,

Agni II, Agni III, and Prithvi with its naval and air force versions,

Akash, Nag, Astra, BrahMos, underwater-launched K-15 (Sagarika) and

land version Shourya. Missile development in India is a saga of self-

reliance and sustained struggle, with the pioneers learning by reverse

engineering and battling technology-denial regimes such as the Missile

Technology Control Regime (MTCR)


Atleast we were successful! The indian Project Devil got screwed though!

 

[Xeric]

And BTW when it comes to reverse engineering, the Americans have themselves claimed of reverse engineering certain British aircrafts. The responsibility lied with CIA to collect the 'stuff' and provide it to the concerned people. Bur unfortunately they nor we FAILED!!