Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[VCheng]

Because those who are criticizing are basically after religion as they are afraid to say many things directly so they come up with indirect way of abusing and lying.

Is religion and its practices above criticism?

 

[Gufi]

There is no real peace when the people starve, and for you to think that it is not apathy to not question that is a misfortune. There is a certain role that needs to be fulfilled by the scholars, staying quiet and silent while things detoriate is wrong. Maybe the pressure the scholar can create wakes the leaders up and gets them to take care of problems otherwise totally forgotten. There is no excuse when people die due to hunger and the scholars stay quiet an d do not question why, that is part of a scholars job. We like to pinpoint the little things that are different but can not stand for the right which everyone agrees on. Yes if there are people starving to death and there is systemic neglect, then there is no real peace and that peace is useless. That peace is the cause of all our problems, staying quiet towards injustice till people pick arms against the system and are exploited by every terrorist agent.
Tell me if you went to a person who saw his children starve to death, and asked him what he thinks of Pakistan what do you expect him to say. Because it takes upto 30 days where they collapse step by step and you hope for help. Read doctors without borders reports and tell me where and why peace.....

Then perhaps you both are mistaking peace with silence, apathy and disassociation. Raising your voice against injustices won't be term violent or unpeaceful. It happens that the tableeghis don't consider it their mandate to even opt for a slight role in political matters. Why ask them to become less peaceful than they are?

 

[VCheng]

Tell me if you went to a person who saw his children starve to death, and asked him what he thinks of Pakistan what do you expect him to say.

"No man can be a patriot on an empty stomach." - William Cowper

 

[Gufi]

"No man can be a patriot on an empty stomach." - William Cowper

I agree, and the scholars have a duty to correct the injustices in society. If they have a platform they should use it for the betterment of society, not politics or even just talking about the things like establishing prayer, because they are important but so is caring for the fellow man, looking to correct the wrongs of society, and pointing out those who are wrong. There is a reason half our religion was how we treat our fellow man.
@Secur that quote sums up the root of terrorism in this country, and the issue which will always be ignored sadly, the one where the scholars need to teach the people right and wrong, the power and responsibility of their vote, and the scholars need to stand against injustice and lead the nation. Only honest scholars can do that, and sadly when they do not, then pseudo scholars take their place selling their religion for money and power. The Country needs those we respect to correct this system, because the value of human life in Islam is very high, and we as a nation have forgotten it. It is heart breaking as a doctor to read the reports of the degrees of starvation n this nation and know that we as a nation have failed our countrymen, we as muslims let our brothers starve. We can quote and preach about Burma all we want, and we should, but what happens here is not acceptable ether.

@Slav Defence @WAJsal

 

[Armstrong]

The entire thread is based on the criticism of a famous religious book written specially for guidance of women (though it isn't limited at that). One side points out that the book is largely irrelevant today because most don't even understand the complicated Urdu used in the book and since nobody bothers anymore to consult these texts. Also, that the criticism isn't valid which it fails to consider the historical context and the time constraint. Me, I side with the idea that the basic ideas of the parts which are criticized are wrong irrespective of the time they were/are written in, that there can be no compromise on them. And that any reformer should rise above that and not start agreeing with the wrongs of the same person or era, which he's trying to correct.

Which book is this ? I've never heard of it !

And my Urdu is as atrocious as Pele playing Cricket so please (very briefly) summarize what you've written in your OP !

 

[I.R.A]

My question was broader than that. What if there is a permanent space station or planetary base? Surely the exemptions you mention cannot be permanent in such a case, therefore modification of the rules governing such religious practices must be possible, if Islam is a religion for all times to come. Or should we limit Islam to Earth and that too excluding the areas beyond the Arctic and Antarctic Circles?

You need to elaborate now, honestly I am not getting what changes you are trying to suggest.

I am now wondering if we are looking at sending expeditions to convert Martians to Islam, and they may ask a question like if "Oxygen is halal for them or Haram"

These what if scenarios need not be constructive or full of development and progress where man searches for and finds new worlds etc. my what if scenario of world would go crazy someday has high probability to happen. (What if world war breaks out everything is destroyed and some of us are left to live our remaining lives in desert with nothing from this present world?)

I don't know about you, I have seen women in this society get a very preferential treatment regardless of who they are.

I have only seen them getting preferential treatment irrespective of whether they deserve it or not, just because they are women and in some cases pretty dolls. May be different experience but I live in the same society you live in, and at one hand you say its not liberal at all, but at other you say they afford preferential treatment to women. Well what is it then?

I wasn't trying to say that it is wrong, the point is that wasting the Govt's money, resources and someone's opportunity is . I am saying they usually don't work because of very obvious reasons, radicalized interpretations of religion can be held responsible here.

So that radicalized religion has no problem when government money is being wasted on their education but that radicalised religion is held responsible when it comes to them working in offices?

And you don't think that your Thaaarki society is the main reason to prevent them from working in offices and feel secure? The same Thaaarki society that would seek refuge in radicalised religion when it comes to honor saving of their own family female? You don't think hypocrisy of your thaaarki society has more to do here than radicalised religion?

You are being naive here, out of suppose 50 boys of a second year class, ten would be intelligent students with concerns about how they want to progress in their careers, rest would be into p*rn, dating, girl friends, parties, gangs etc. And those 40 when they make it to offices are the ones that make work life of these women miserable not the radicalized religion.

Last time, I remember my Lord and your Lord granted all of his finest creations the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and to decide whats best for them. One thing Muslims and specially Pakistanis need to learn, you don't need to teach or enforce everything. Humans have awarded a brain that is capable of free critical thinking, don't limit it. Zia didn't make anyone a good Muslim or even their prayers respectful in the eyes of God by closing down shops forcibly or using stick carrying low level enforcers, fear might be the best motivation for doing something but it isn't effective at all.

Last time I remember my ALLAH and your ALLAH would ask us for our duties towards our children, free thinking is one thing but it does not mean that I would let my 8 months old to put anything in his mouth because he thinks freely and assumes it to be safe, I would not let my 3 year old run freely on roads with traffic because this is what his free thinking wants him to do.

Excess of everything is bad and I don't see how Zia is even relevant here? my debate with you is simple I have no problem with any criticism of man written literature or their actions, my point is your hypocrite thaarki society, you wish freedom and equality of rights for opposite gender and hold religion as an opposing root cause to it, whereas I say majority of your society has no sense of religion, its your Thaaarki hypocrite society that misuses the religion abuses it for its own personal interests (and by society I mean both male and females), that is the main hurdle and reason for any development.

 

[WAJsal]

I agree, and the scholars have a duty to correct the injustices in society. If they have a platform they should use it for the betterment of society, not politics or even just talking about the things like establishing prayer, because they are important but so is caring for the fellow man, looking to correct the wrongs of society, and pointing out those who are wrong. There is a reason half our religion was how we treat our fellow man.
@Secur that quote sums up the root of terrorism in this country, and the issue which will always be ignored sadly, the one where the scholars need to teach the people right and wrong, the power and responsibility of their vote, and the scholars need to stand against injustice and lead the nation. Only honest scholars can do that, and sadly when they do not, then pseudo scholars take their place selling their religion for money and power. The Country needs those we respect to correct this system, because the value of human life in Islam is very high, and we as a nation have forgotten it. It is heart breaking as a doctor to read the reports of the degrees of starvation n this nation and know that we as a nation have failed our countrymen, we as muslims let our brothers starve. We can quote and preach about Burma all we want, and we should, but what happens here is not acceptable ether.

@Slav Defence @WAJsal

Well said and hardly debatable.

 

[VCheng]

You need to elaborate now, honestly I am not getting what changes you are trying to suggest.

I am suggesting any changes. I am only trying to establish whether the practice of Islam is believed to be adaptable to an ever changing world, or is it immutable?

 

[Secur]

I have only seen them getting preferential treatment irrespective of whether they deserve it or not, just because they are women and in some cases pretty dolls. May be different experience but I live in the same society you live in, and at one hand you say its not liberal at all, but at other you say they afford preferential treatment to women. Well what is it then?

True. You think the society's intelligentsia's liberal? Its pseudo-liberal at best, with underlying tones of religion. Yes, what does liberalism has to do with preferential treatment to women seriously?

So that radicalized religion has no problem when government money is being wasted on their education but that radicalised religion is held responsible when it comes to them working in offices?

And you don't think that your Thaaarki society is the main reason to prevent them from working in offices and feel secure? The same Thaaarki society that would seek refuge in radicalised religion when it comes to honor saving of their own family female? You don't think hypocrisy of your thaaarki society has more to do here than radicalised religion?

You are being naive here, out of suppose 50 boys of a second year class, ten would be intelligent students with concerns about how they want to progress in their careers, rest would be into p*rn, dating, girl friends, parties, gangs etc. And those 40 when they make it to offices are the ones that make work life of these women miserable not the radicalized religion.

Ok study but don't work is the new mantra for the hyper-religious and religious alike out there (no problem with it only that since resources are constrained, the people who would work-serve and recover the money should be preferred). Now, don't say that you haven't seen the evolution of "women not getting worldly education at all". And the kind I put my emphasis into, still doesn't opt for any meaningful higher education (or no secular education at all). Radicalized interpretation of religion (supported in the book) are responsible, even if they have to be irrationally defended because of an unrealistic fear of punishment of anything related to religion, regardless of being right or wrong or logical or illogical.

Possibly but not necessarily and never all forty of them. You are wrong to assume that the adolescent irresponsibility and impulsivity remains constant with age. Even those learn with time and women aren't helpless in the workplaces as you would like to believe. There are mechanism at work to help (sometimes more than are needed).

Last time I remember my ALLAH and your ALLAH would ask us for our duties towards our children, free thinking is one thing but it does not mean that I would let my 8 months old to put anything in his mouth because he thinks freely and assumes it to be safe, I would not let my 3 year old run freely on roads with traffic because this is what his free thinking wants him to do.

Excess of everything is bad and I don't see how Zia is even relevant here? my debate with you is simple I have no problem with any criticism of man written literature or their actions, my point is your hypocrite thaarki society, you wish freedom and equality of rights for opposite gender and hold religion as an opposing root cause to it, whereas I say majority of your society has no sense of religion, its your Thaaarki hypocrite society that misuses the religion abuses it for its own personal interests (and by society I mean both male and females), that is the main hurdle and reason for any development.

The only problem is that I haven't been talking about children in my posts, this entire time. These are grownups with well developed inhibiting mechanisms and neocortex, well capable of making their own decisions or distinguishing right from wrong without being taught or enforced everything (basic guidelines are another thing).

He is, its a good example of the radicals/extremist (not referring to you) need to ask for enforcement of everything without any meaningful results. I hold wrongful interpretations of religion responsible for the problem majorly without denying the role of the society. Yes, society has a problem, its not remotely perfect but still it accords a lot more facilities and preferential treatment to women (even you agree on it).

Which book is this ? I've never heard of it !

And my Urdu is as atrocious as Pele playing Cricket so please (very briefly) summarize what you've written in your OP !

Behashti Zewar. I doubt if you cant read simple Urdu (most of the OP anyway). Come on.

Because those who are criticizing are basically after religion as they are afraid to say many things directly so they come up with indirect way of abusing and lying.

Yes, its an effective strategy by the Mullahs and their supporters alike to deflect criticism from their wrongdoings and shortcomings. Point out that the critic is secretly is after the religion and has a problem with God or his teachings but putting it in this way because he fears repercussions and prosecutions. I agree. Because there isn't a tinny bit of evidence that religion was being criticized.

 

[Zarvan]

True. You think the society's intelligentsia's liberal? Its pseudo-liberal at best, with underlying tones of religion. Yes, what does liberalism has to do with preferential treatment to women seriously?



Ok study but don't work is the new mantra for the hyper-religious and religious alike out there (no problem with it only that since resources are constrained, the people who would work-serve and recover the money should be preferred). Now, don't say that you haven't seen the evolution of "women not getting worldly education at all". And the kind I put my emphasis into, still doesn't opt for any meaningful higher education (or no secular education at all). Radicalized interpretation of religion (supported in the book) are responsible, even if they have to be irrationally defended because of an unrealistic fear of punishment of anything related to religion, regardless of being right or wrong or logical or illogical.

Possibly but not necessarily and never all forty of them. You are wrong to assume that the adolescent irresponsibility and impulsivity remains constant with age. Even those learn with time and women aren't helpless in the workplaces as you would like to believe. There are mechanism at work to help (sometimes more than are needed).



The only problem is that I haven't been talking about children in my posts, this entire time. These are grownups with well developed inhibiting mechanisms and neocortex, well capable of making their own decisions or distinguishing right from wrong without being taught or enforced everything (basic guidelines are another thing).

He is, its a good example of the radicals/extremist (not referring to you) need to ask for enforcement of everything without any meaningful results. I hold wrongful interpretations of religion responsible for the problem majorly without denying the role of the society. Yes, society has a problem, its not remotely perfect but still it accords a lot more facilities and preferential treatment to women (even you agree on it).



Behashti Zewar. I doubt if you cant read simple Urdu (most of the OP anyway). Come on.



Yes, its an effective strategy by the Mullahs and their supporters alike to deflect criticism from their wrongdoings and shortcomings. Point out that the critic is secretly is after the religion and has a problem with God or his teachings but putting it in this way because he fears repercussions and prosecutions. I agree. Because there isn't a tinny bit of evidence that religion was being criticized.

Criticism is hardly done in Mullahs. Terms live Mullah and others are used to talk crap against Islam.

 

[VCheng]

Yes, its an effective strategy by the Mullahs and their supporters alike to deflect criticism from their wrongdoings and shortcomings. Point out that the critic is secretly is after the religion and has a problem with God or his teachings but putting it in this way because he fears repercussions and prosecutions. I agree. Because there isn't a tinny bit of evidence that religion was being criticized.

Absolutely correct words that bear repeating. But it can be effective only if rational and sane people let themselves be intimidated by the Mullahs, those in "closets" and those in the open.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
Behashti Zewar. I doubt if you cant read simple Urdu (most of the OP anyway). Come on.

English version for everyone's reading pleasure

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/women/bahishti_1_2_3.pdf


I quote from Vol-1 page 21:

The Education of Women

After knowing the Hadith, "Seeking of knowledge is compulsory on every Muslim male and female", and other texts which make the acquisition of knowledge compulsory on both males and females, there remains no need to write a special article on this subject.

 

[Secur]

The Education of Women

Go ahead and read what I have posted from the book (both English and Urdu versions). There is a whole explanation of the "compulsory education" and its modes and limitations for women, mere quotation of a hadith isn't enough. The devil as always lies in the details.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Go ahead and read what I have posted from the book (both English and Urdu versions). There is a whole explanation of the "compulsory education" and its modes and limitations for women, mere quotation of a hadith isn't enough. The devil as always lies in the details.

Bhai jaan

you can read Thanvi the way you like.
The way I understood, that he defines knowledge as something that leads one to do righteous acts.
Isn't this we expect from education? to make us do the righteous deeds? good deeds.

I mean if us the educated elite want to pick fights, fine! But that's counterproductive for sure.

Just try to use common sense and move on. That's we should do.

peace

 

[VCheng]

Bhai jaan

you can read Thanvi the way you like.
The way I understood, that he defines knowledge as something that leads one to do righteous acts.
Isn't this we expect from education? to make us do the righteous deeds? good deeds.

peace

That is the definition of religious education. Knowledge is not bound by any such considerations, and education is better defined as the pursuit of knowledge.