Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[Irfan Baloch]

Irfan, I admit I have not born to a native English speaking parents but my English is not that bad that I could not comprehend simple sentences. This thing was not condeming Taliban or Iranian or Saudi clergy, but very clearly associating Islam with all social ills. ?

I urge you to let you your personal feeling against other members and please dont make me a party in this name calling.
someone once commented that during Taliban rule there was peace in Afghanistan.. YES peace indeed , a dreadful peace of a Morgue and a slaughter house where the biggest spectacle was execution in the Afghan football ground.

what I saw was that he is asked why Muslims behave better in non Muslim countries? he responds that it is the justice and fair system that helps them do that which is lacking in the Muslim world. yes there are social ills in the west but look at them they are ranked as the most desirable and happiest people of the world and Muslims from across the world put their lives in danger, and through hook or crook, legally or illegally try to get there and this flow of movement is not the other way round
tells you something doesnt it. the corporal punishments of KSA and Iran aside, do you think their people believe that their governments treat them fairly? how brutally and systematically their descent is crushed by these autocratic states?
for me KSA and Iran and the Islamic version of North Korea or Stalin time Soviet Union. I agree with your points about the social ills of Africa, Latin America etc but also recall what the Arabian Pince do during their visits to Pakistan, its not just hunting Animals, how their Hosts treat them is quiet shameful.
to me the issue is that the thugs of the third word blackmail me and you in the name of Islam and commit every conceivable social ill that will repulse anyone with a little conscience.
again, the problem is with us who vote them in and accept their rule NOT the Islam itself which is misused and misrepresented by our Muslim rulers.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Modern vs traditional: Is the woman an equal partner, or not?

Equality? Yeah. Only on college campuses. or when you are living in boyfriend girlfriend setup. I sure hope you don't have children before marriage.

Once you get married, there is no equality. Why?

In reality?

Mother's role is 1000 times superior to father's.

Father's role is only secondary. Be loyal, be hardworker and bring home the bacon (halal ). Easy stuff.

Mother's?

Oh my, where should I start. Her job as I said earlier is 1000 time superior.

Hope you understand..

.....
what I saw was that he is asked why Muslims behave better in non Muslim countries? .

Depends.

Muslims born and raised in Luton Aloo stores and madrassahs do not..

it really depends on socio-economic background.

let's not make sweeping statements please.

 

[VCheng]

Equality? Yeah. Only on college campuses. or when you are living in boyfriend girlfriend setup. I sure hope you don't have children before marriage.

Once you get married, there is no equality. Why?

In reality?

Mother's role is 1000 times superior to father's.

Father's role is only secondary. Be loyal, be hardworker and bring home the bacon (halal ). Easy stuff.

Mother's?

Oh my, where should I start. Her job as I said earlier is 1000 time superior.

Hope you understand..

My question is whether this division of roles should be religiously mandated or imposed, or should every couple be free to work this out in a manner that works for them as they build a relationship? Brainwashing little girls to be submissive is counter productive for the whole society in the long run, as BZ does.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Depends.

Muslims born and raised in Luton Aloo stores and madrassahs do not..

it really depends on socio-economic background.

let's not make sweeping statements please.

hehe

indeed sweeping statements dont help

but I am pointing at positive attitude of Muslims in the west. so the problem is not with their faith but actually the way they are managed and ruled in the third world. the Muslims behaving badly in the west are exception to the rule.

My question is whether this division of roles should be religiously mandated or imposed, or should every couple be free to work this out in a manner that works for them as they build a relationship? Brainwashing little girls to be submissive is counter productive for the whole society in the long run, as BZ does.

so how much a man is free?
someone asked Ali

try to stand one one leg. asked Ali
Man with some difficulty managed to stand on one leg.

now lift your other leg as well. the man could'nt do that
thats how much you are free.


(still with me?)

 

[FaujHistorian]

My question is whether this division of roles should be religiously mandated or imposed, or should every couple be free to work this out in a manner that works for them as they build a relationship? Brainwashing little girls to be submissive is counter productive for the whole society in the long run, as BZ does.

meray piaray bhai,

you are confusing whole bunch of different things. Let me put it bluntly to you.

man, woman having sex! Are they equal? Do both bring penis to the game, or both bring vagina?

Where the fork is equality?

One pokes outwards, the other the exact opposite.

Do they have a choice? Can a man bring vagina to this relationship? (perhaps another lady friend for a 3 sum. hahahahah)

Please quit thinking like LGBT couples.

profession change, biology remains the same (well OK evolves). you are stuck on professions, while ignoring biology..

Thank you.

hehe

indeed sweeping statements dont help

but I am pointing at positive attitude of Muslims in the west. so the problem is not with their faith but actually the way they are managed and ruled in the third world. the Muslims behaving badly in the west are exception to the rule.

Actually faith alone would have been OKI.

But Muslims who mix faith and politics have gone astray.

Please no stereotyping.


Faith is a mome ki naak, the user can turn it into the desired direction.

 

[VCheng]

so how much a man is free?
someone asked Ali

try to stand one one leg. asked Ali
Man with some difficulty managed to stand on one leg.

now lift your other leg as well. the man could'nt do that
thats how much you are free.


(still with me?)

Man doing it on his own is very different than him being forced what to do by someone else with a mind from the 12th century. (Still with me? )

meray piaray bhai,

you are confusing whole bunch of different things. Let me put it bluntly to you.

man, woman having sex! Are they equal? Do both bring penis to the game, or both bring vagina?

Where the fork is equality?

One pokes outwards, the other the exact opposite.

Do they have a choice? Can a man bring vagina to this relationship? (perhaps another lady friend for a 3 sum. hahahahah)

Please quit thinking like LGBT couples.

profession change, biology remains the same (well OK evolves). you are stuck on professions, while ignoring biology..

Thank you.

I have some understanding of human reproductive biology (just a little), and you should learn to rise above the merely physical level of the thinking of Muslims today and learn to think about the higher mental and intellectual concepts too, which both women and men bring to a relationship, which is much more than sex.

It is the time that Islam's followers rise to concentrate on matters above the navel, for a change.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....



I have some understanding of human reproductive biology (just a little),

off course you do. meray bhai, off course you do.

...
so how much a man is free?
someone asked Ali

In general this is OK

But Ali rah was not talking about mother-father-baby.

you don't stand on one leg there. hahah

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Man doing it on his own is very different than him being forced what to do by someone else with a mind from the 12th century. (Still with me? )

reading some of the commentary by Ali one really feels sorry for that Man (no disrespect intended) he used to complain about the level of questions people asked him and how he had to respond keeping in mind their level of understanding.
I was pointing at the concept of free will and some constraints we have within our faith.
you, I understand, are focusing on the state's directive and compulsion on the man to behave in a way (again it reminds me of KSA, prayer time and the poor Sikhs ROFL .. I guess you know the story)

to tell you the truth, I am all up for a little bit of state policing so keep us in line. we act like scums without the fear of authority, the only challenge is the right mix of danda and fairness.
ALSO, I do believe in Man leading the household but woman given the respect and honour she deserves.

oh by the way, I am out of this thread.
good luck

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

he didnt mention Pakistan did he?

you say that, yet looking at Hadood ordinance and the way daughter of eve is disrespected in our sharia courts by the lawyers of the defendants is heart rending. and what I dare say about Blasphemy law? even writing or commenting about law is seen as Blasphemous.
we have a comfortable compromise here just like "Jhamhuriat ka husan" we use Islam when it suits us and we seek highest profit paying (read intest) accounts when it suits us.

How many people got punishment under Blasphemy law so far? How many thieves got their hand cut off? how many women were stones to death in our courts according to Islamic punishment? How many private schools are running according to Islamic principles? How many Pakistani banks avoid interests/riba which is considered forbidden in Islam? Do you think all our countries political, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal affairs and penal code run according to Islamic principles?

Pakistan retained the most of the laws that were inherited from the secular British legal code. Pakistan was the first Muslim country who elected first female prime minister. Again Which sharia Ayub, Musharaf, PPP, PMLN followed during their political and military Rule? zia may be an exception but all others rulers were very much secular and Pakistani people never elected any religious party even once since 1947 lol we are all religious nut is joke of the day lol Even extremist element in our society fighting against our state because according to them our state is running according to kufr secular nazaam which they want to replace with their twisted version of sharia and here liberal are telling us that our state already run by sharia laws

 

[VCheng]

How many people got punishment under Blasphemy law so far? How many thieves got their hand cut off? how many women were stones to death in our courts according to Islamic punishment? How many private schools are running according to Islamic principles? How many Pakistani banks avoid interests/riba which is considered forbidden in Islam? Do you think all our countries political, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal affairs and penal code run according to Islamic principles?

Pakistan retained the most of the laws that were inherited from the secular British legal code. Pakistan was the first Muslim country who elected first female prime minister. Again Which sharia Ayub, Musharaf, PPP, PMLN followed during their political and military Rule? zia may be an exception but all others rulers were very much secular and Pakistani people never elected any religious party even once since 1947 lol we are all religious nut is joke of the day lol Even extremist element in our society fighting against our state because according to them our state is running according to kufr secular nazaam which they want to replace with their twisted version of sharia and here liberal are telling us that our state already run by sharia laws

It is even worse. Pakistan has hypocrisy by the spadeful, and therefore obtains the worst of both worlds, while proclaiming the noblest ideals of Islam. Like you say, the radicals believe it is not Islamic at all, and yet the whole world sees what we say and what we do, and fail to come up with any rational explanation that would explain the situation.

 

[syedali73]

I urge you to let you your personal feeling against other members and please dont make me a party in this name calling.
someone once commented that during Taliban rule there was peace in Afghanistan.. YES peace indeed , a dreadful peace of a Morgue and a slaughter house where the biggest spectacle was execution in the Afghan football ground.

what I saw was that he is asked why Muslims behave better in non Muslim countries? he responds that it is the justice and fair system that helps them do that which is lacking in the Muslim world. yes there are social ills in the west but look at them they are ranked as the most desirable and happiest people of the world and Muslims from across the world put their lives in danger, and through hook or crook, legally or illegally try to get there and this flow of movement is not the other way round
tells you something doesnt it. the corporal punishments of KSA and Iran aside, do you think their people believe that their governments treat them fairly? how brutally and systematically their descent is crushed by these autocratic states?
for me KSA and Iran and the Islamic version of North Korea or Stalin time Soviet Union. I agree with your points about the social ills of Africa, Latin America etc but also recall what the Arabian Pince do during their visits to Pakistan, its not just hunting Animals, how their Hosts treat them is quiet shameful.
to me the issue is that the thugs of the third word blackmail me and you in the name of Islam and commit every conceivable social ill that will repulse anyone with a little conscience.
again, the problem is with us who vote them in and accept their rule NOT the Islam itself which is misused and misrepresented by our Muslim rulers.

Irfan: I am not making you party in name calling. This member is being called what he deserves. Calling spade a spade is no name calling. A person who ignores atrocities and crimes committed by non-Muslims yet hell-bent on associating even smallest of the crimes with Islam, what he should be called? an intellectual? and honest? a fair? Rasool Allah? He is able to ridicule and mock Islam only because of people like you, people with power, who put their weight on his side. You have edited my post, why? 'khubs e batin' is a bad word? 'thing' is a bad word? There are 1.7 billion Muslims in this world, all of them are bad people? all of them are criminals? all of them are terrorists? and all of them do all those things because Islamic teachings incite them to do that? In almost every post he shamelessly associate all sorts of crimes and social ills with Islam whereas ignoring what is happening in other parts of the world. The total number of women who get raped in his beloved non-Muslim countries far exceeds the number of such crimes in all 53 Muslim countries combined. The total number of orphans that are thrown on the roads in these so-called developed countries is no where to be seen in apparently poor and corrupt Muslim countries. The number of illegitimate children that are born, the number of divorces that take place, the number of mentally unstable and lunatics, rate of suicide, all these social ills are much higher in those countries that are apparently not affected by the evil of Islam and yet this thing brazenly associates social ills with Islam. Why does he not associate raping of minor boys by catholic clergymen with Christianity? Why does he not associate ongoing onslaught in Muslim countries by Christianity and Zionism despite clear evidence of it?

Irfan: Either you stay out of it and let some other 'impartial' mod moderate this thread, or do not become a party for this is eroding your credibility. A man is know by the company he keeps. This is my last post in this thread. Mind you no amount of pressure or threats or eventualities can make me move from a stance that I find righteous. You can ban me forever, throw my ID in oblivion but I will not stand back from my position on this thing.

 

[Zarvan]

My question is whether this division of roles should be religiously mandated or imposed, or should every couple be free to work this out in a manner that works for them as they build a relationship? Brainwashing little girls to be submissive is counter productive for the whole society in the long run, as BZ does.

Well if you believe in GOD than I think its basic common sense that GOD knows better than you because he created you and he has already defined the roles.

 

[VCheng]

Well if you believe in GOD than I think its basic common sense that GOD knows better than you because he created you and he has already defined the roles.

I have no problem with the way Allah has defined the roles. But the roles as defined in literature like BZ is the problem with the way they have defined them.

 

[I.R.A]

Consider the following: If one considers Islam as a religion for all times to come, then it must be capable of change to keep itself relevant. Not the basics of course, but the application of those basic must remain flexible, otherwise it fossilizes itself into gradual irrelevance. For example, how would a Muslim fast on the poles or in orbit? Clearly, the old interpretations of sehri and iftari timings can not hold true.

Very good point and a very good example.

With my limited knowledge my simple answer to someone living in poles or orbit would be, buddy Islam does excuse people from "Fasting" in situations like when you are travelling, when you are sick etc and for women it specially excuses them when they are sick in certain days of the month or pregnancy etc. Then Islam also explains the way how they can make it up for those missed days of fasting. So I don't think there would be any reason that anyone living in poles or orbits cannot consult and get guidance regarding how to fast and how to pray .

Further based on my very limited knowledge I would ask a simple question from you and proponents of women equal rights, and people with more knowledge like @syedali73 @Bratva @araz @TankMan

In Quran when verses explain scenarios where people are made aware (make them fear) of how they would be treated if they fail to abide by what ALLAH has ordered and what ALLAH wants from them, how many times Quran has referred to word "Momineen" and word "Mominat" or considering simple gender only how many times Quran has informed for harsher punishments specific to women only or how many times Quran has informed about punishment for men?.

Considering equality means equal reward and equal punishment.

Similarly, Islam is only what Muslims do. There can be no separating the actions of its followers from the motivation provided by the religion.

Let us agree to disagree on this, if I follow your logic then the words Munafiqeen, Khwarij, Murtid, Kazab, Mushrik all these become irrelevant.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I have no problem with the way Allah has defined the roles. But the roles as defined in literature like BZ is the problem with the way they have defined them.

Allah doesn't "define" roles per se. it just asks us to understand biology that makes one mom or dad.

Too many posts here treat man woman purely based on money and material things.

The whole concept of "equality" comes from those who have never been married, at least not for 10-20 years to really understand what marriage is.

FYI. marriage is a contract based on "complementary" strengths of mom and dad. And not equal strengths.

In some ways dad has more strengths and in other areas, (well most of areas) it is mom.

True equality happens only in boyfriend-girlfriend or same sex couples when child rearing is not an issue.

Once kids come into the picture, and man-woman become dad-mom, then $hit hit the fan and equality goes out the window.

if you ignore this important biological aspect (and not religious mumbo jumbo),, then you will end up with whole lot of single moms and absentee fathers.

Rich countries can perhaps afford teenage unwed mothers, poor countries will be hell if that happens.

Peace