Slow modernisation of capabilities a big concern: IAF chief

[anant_s]

sir i want to know whether rafales are a replacement for mig 27 or both( mig27 +sepecat jaguar)...?

Both. You need to see this in context of threat perception and the time frame.
By the end of this decade, Mig 21 and 27 would be gone. Along with this J 17 will be fielded in large numbers along with newer generation Chinese fighters. These planes will make Jaguars in next decade or so obsolete.
now you need to consider what options you have to plug this gap.
Rafale owing to its omni-role capabilities will do so effectively. Also assuming it gets inducted from 2016, it will undergo its first upgrades 2025-26 onwards keeping it at par with anything 4.5 gen fielded in the region.
& when we talk of price tag, we must consider that it always is better to have a single fighter in inventory for a work which simplifies cost of flying and maintaining.

 

[danger007]

Rafale will happen and this will be the time line

Deal to be signed between Dec 2014- March 2015
36 Rafales delivered to IAF direct between 2015-2018
License production starting 2019-2026 = 7 years 108 planes

By 2018 -2019 IAF will be fielding

270 mki
36 Rafale F3
50 Mirage2000/5 mostly upgraded
60 mig29smt
40 tejas mk1
100 jaguars

By 2026

126 Rafale F3/F4
270 mki/ (super mki x 42)
40 mk1 TEJAS
60 Tejas MK2
50 MIRAGE2000/5
60 MIG29SMT

Maybe 1 or 2 SQDS of PAK FA

Slight correction.. IAF got plans to Induct single seat and dual seat variant.. It could be 2 or 3 Sq PAK FA , 3 Sq FGFA

 

[holysaturn]

Every now and then I hear Air Chief scream about how modernization pace is worrying but never are the issues of training, and rarely maintainability figures of current and future IAF aircraft.
I got information from a reliable source of mine that IAF pilots these days in modern fighters train less than twice the flying hrs than the pilots of the Mig-21(that too primarily air defence training) days because of high operational and maintenance costs of todays fighters and simulators can at most help with familiarization.This is the common phenomenon in all major air forces which are cutting into training costs to keep procurements on track.
Also considering the fact that these are multirole fighters, pilots require much more training than in the past.
Training proved the difference in all wars, more so than technology and it is going to cost us in future conflicts as our our air force moves down the same USAF path of being a procurement oriented air force.
Batting for better training and maintenance doesnt fill the coffers of officers and India might need its own Vietnam to recognize this.

 

[Trawllu]

Okey, you know what you are talking about, I hope.
I respect you enthu, & concern for tax payers money. LCA stands for light combat aircraft, because well you know its light. It is created for interception role, with limited ground attack capabilities. You are comparing its capalities with dedicated ground attack fighters like Jaguars & Mig 27s. Also comparing Mirrage to Lcas is foolish as mirrage has better all round capabilities like better payload range than LCA. For your info Best IAF pilots fly Mirrage2000, not Sukhois or Mig29s. Further more, russian fighters are extremly costly to maintain.

And more over, its IAFs doctrain to maintain fleet of light, medium & heavy fighters.
Maybe you should go through mmrca & lca sticky in a detailed manner, you will gain much knowledge. There is no doubt in capabilities of LCA, but you are confusing its potential to replace aircrafts with different roles.

ok now lets keep enthu aside

lets begin

how do you define light medium heavy ?

it is true the name is LCA

but the changes in IAF requirements ASQRs over the years have made LCA TEJAS today a true multirole Aircraft and not a LIGHT FIGHTER

JAguar darin upgrade is not complete and if i tell you Jag does not have radars

LCA has Radars which can be switched between a2a and a2g roles both

tejas carries more load than Jaguars and hashigher speed higher engine power


the only advantage mirage has over Tejas is Payload not even range

yeas i am a big fan of IAF when i found out that the IAF during kargil war was not ready with the strike options or plnaes required for it

We had to overnight get the Mirage 2000 modified to perform those roles

so the less said about IAF doctrines the better

Rafale will happen and this will be the time line

Deal to be signed between Dec 2014- March 2015
36 Rafales delivered to IAF direct between 2015-2018
36 Rafale F3

you mean 18 instead of 36 right

otherwise it will take total past 140

Every now and then I hear Air Chief scream about how modernization pace is worrying but never are the issues of training, and rarely maintainability figures of current and future IAF aircraft.
I got information from a reliable source of mine that IAF pilots these days in modern fighters train less than twice the flying hrs than the pilots of the Mig-21(that too primarily air defence training) days because of high operational and maintenance costs of todays fighters and simulators can at most help with familiarization.This is the common phenomenon in all major air forces which are cutting into training costs to keep procurements on track.
Also considering the fact that these are multirole fighters, pilots require much more training than in the past.
Training proved the difference in all wars, more so than technology and it is going to cost us in future conflicts as our our air force moves down the same USAF path of being a procurement oriented air force.
Batting for better training and maintenance doesnt fill the coffers of officers and India might need its own Vietnam to recognize this.

you are absolutely right and that why we need more of Tejas than Rafale

we need a mix of Hi Lo Ac

and not a khichdi of Hi Med Lo

 

[nair]

@sancho @GURU DUTT @levina @Abingdonboy @Skull and Bones
@acetophenol @IND151 @nair @anant_s @TejasMk3 @gslv mk3

Your comments

He is absolutely right........ MMRCA is also becoming a joke like LCA...... I can understand designing an air craft takes time.... Once you decide to buy an air craft why the hell you cant take a decision?????

 

[Levina]

@sancho @GURU DUTT @levina @Abingdonboy @Skull and Bones
@acetophenol @IND151 @nair @anant_s @TejasMk3 @gslv mk3

Your comments

I'm very dilettante on this subject and I usually just skim through such posts.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

ok now lets keep enthu aside

lets begin

how do you define light medium heavy ?

it is true the name is LCA

but the changes in IAF requirements ASQRs over the years have made LCA TEJAS today a true multirole Aircraft and not a LIGHT FIGHTER

JAguar darin upgrade is not complete and if i tell you Jag does not have radars

LCA has Radars which can be switched between a2a and a2g roles both

tejas carries more load than Jaguars and hashigher speed higher engine power


the only advantage mirage has over Tejas is Payload not even range

yeas i am a big fan of IAF when i found out that the IAF during kargil war was not ready with the strike options or plnaes required for it

We had to overnight get the Mirage 2000 modified to perform those roles

so the less said about IAF doctrines better it will be

Look now I am tired,.you have just put various factors like rcs, payload capacity, range, avionics of fighters, arnament etc out of equation. Iaf has a solid doctrain, our ACMs know more than keyboard warriors like us. Kargil was an unprecidented event, no other airforce in the world has to operate through such constrains before. Mig 27s were not meant to do that job, so iaf modified mirrage2000 & became successfull. Maybe for one last time, I am going to try to put forward a valid argument.

Dassault Rafale Specifications
Primary Function:
Multi-role fighter / reconn.
Contractor:
Dassault
Crew:
Single or twin seater
Unit Cost:
N/A
Powerplant
Two SNECMA M88-3 turbofans each
rated at 19,555 lb (86.98 kN) with
afterburning -- Rafale C
Dimensions
Length:
50 ft 3 in (15.3 m)
Wingspan:
35 ft 9 in (10.9 m)
Height:
17 ft 6 in (5.34 m)
Weights
Empty:
N/A
Maximum Takeoff:
47,399 lb (21500 kg) -- Rafale C
Performance
Speed:
Maximum level speed 'clean' at
36,090 ft (11000 m) 1,321 mph
(1,147 kt / 2125 km/h) -- Rafale C
Ceiling:
60,000 ft
Range:
1000 nm
Armament
Cannon: 1 30mm DEFA 554; Mica,
R.550 Magic 2, BGL 400

tech specs for LCA Tejas
(MK1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4
in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft
11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9
in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413
ft²)
Empty weight: 6,560 kg
(14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,500
kg (23,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight:
13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × General
Electric F404-GE-IN20
turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN
(11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner:
85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity:
2,458 kg
External fuel capacity:
2x 1,200 litre drop tank
at inboard, 1x 725 litre
drop tank under
fuselage
Maximum speed: Mach
1.8 (2,376+ km/h at
high altitude) at 15,000
m
Range: 3,000 km (1,840
mi) without refueling
Service ceiling: 15,250 m
(50,000 ft
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/
m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.91
g-limits: +9

If you see LCA legs behind in arnament, range & payload etc. It simply cant perform the roles mmrca winner supposed to play. LCA is a low multi role point defence fighter where as Rafale is meant for primarily deep strike missions due to its lower rcs & EW capability. Sukhoi 30 mki will be air superiority component of IAF.

@nair
Yes, I agree to. Indrcision from GOI has seriously crippled IAFs ability & squadron strength.
@levina
my bad, sorry.

 

[TejasMk3]

Your comments

Rafale is not in trouble, people have already posted many sources, here is a new interview from october:
We expect MMRCA and the A330 MRTT Flight Refuelling Aircraft contracts concluded in the near future. Both these aircraft are critical to the build up of our operational capability

What is holding up the signing of the MMRCA contract? What is plan-B to make the combat strength?

Contract negotiations were being carried out by the CNC through four sub-committees. Three CNC sub-committees negotiating ‘Maintenance’, ‘Offset’ and ‘Transfer of Technology’ have completed their negotiations and submitted their reports. The Contract sub-committee has resolved most of the contractual aspects with the representatives of Dassault Aviation and HAL. Certain pending issues will be resolved soon and a contract signed after obtaining CCS approval. No alternatives are being considered as MMRCA induction is part of IAF’s Long Term Perspective Plan based on capabilities required in the long term, the envisaged technology drivers and the threat scenarios in the future.

Also

What acquisition contracts are expected to be signed by end of financial year 2014-2015? Do you expect the tanker aircraft contract to be signed in the present financial year?
Contracts in respect of Attack Helicopters, Heavy Lift Helicopters, additional Dornier aircraft, Micro-light aircraft, additional Cheetal Helicopters, Ground Based Mobile Elint Systems, Laser Designator Pods, simulators for Su-30 MKI aircraft and additional IACCS nodes are expected to be signed by the end of this year. We expect MMRCA and the A330 MRTT Flight Refuelling Aircraft contracts concluded in the near future. Both these aircraft are critical to the build up of our operational capability.

Also, while it might seem easy to just sign on a contract, there are many tricky things that these companies put in...for example in ToT:

An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft.

Impending MMRCA Waste -The New Indian Express (dont mind the title..author does not like mmrca...but that is not the point)

 

[The_Sidewinder]

@TejasMk3
nice read. Thanks for posting, bar the title.

 

[Trawllu]

Look now I am tired,.you have just put various factors like rcs, payload capacity, range, avionics of fighters, arnament etc out of equation. Iaf has a solid doctrain, our ACMs know more than keyboard warriors like us. Kargil was an unprecidented event, no other airforce in the world has to operate through such constrains before. Mig 27s were not meant to do that job, so iaf modified mirrage2000 & became successfull. Maybe for one last time, I am going to try to put forward a valid argument.

Dassault Rafale Specifications
Primary Function:
Multi-role fighter / reconn.
Contractor:
Dassault
Crew:
Single or twin seater
Unit Cost:
N/A
Powerplant
Two SNECMA M88-3 turbofans each
rated at 19,555 lb (86.98 kN) with
afterburning -- Rafale C
Dimensions
Length:
50 ft 3 in (15.3 m)
Wingspan:
35 ft 9 in (10.9 m)
Height:
17 ft 6 in (5.34 m)
Weights
Empty:
N/A
Maximum Takeoff:
47,399 lb (21500 kg) -- Rafale C
Performance
Speed:
Maximum level speed 'clean' at
36,090 ft (11000 m) 1,321 mph
(1,147 kt / 2125 km/h) -- Rafale C
Ceiling:
60,000 ft
Range:
1000 nm
Armament
Cannon: 1 30mm DEFA 554; Mica,
R.550 Magic 2, BGL 400

tech specs for LCA Tejas
(MK1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4
in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft
11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9
in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413
ft²)
Empty weight: 6,560 kg
(14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,500
kg (23,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight:
13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × General
Electric F404-GE-IN20
turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN
(11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner:
85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity:
2,458 kg
External fuel capacity:
2x 1,200 litre drop tank
at inboard, 1x 725 litre
drop tank under
fuselage
Maximum speed: Mach
1.8 (2,376+ km/h at
high altitude) at 15,000
m
Range: 3,000 km (1,840
mi) without refueling
Service ceiling: 15,250 m
(50,000 ft
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/
m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.91
g-limits: +9

If you see LCA legs behind in arnament, range & payload etc. It simply cant perform the roles mmrca winner supposed to play. LCA is a low multi role point defence fighter where as Rafale is meant for primarily deep strike missions due to its lower rcs & EW capability. Sukhoi 30 mki will be air superiority component of IAF.

@nair
Yes, I agree to. Indrcision from GOI has seriously crippled IAFs ability & squadron strength.
@levina
my bad, sorry.

Yes you are right in this comparision

but then if i put the the figures for Su30mki besides Rafale what will happen which will have higher load range armament ?

ok deep strike role

then we have su34 built specially as a strike fighter / FIGHTER BOMBER
it has all range payload armament and ROLE capability

plus you forgot to compare the price in these cases

anyways

lets agree to disagree

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Yes you are right in this comparision

but then if i put the the figures for Su30mki besides Rafale what will happen which will have higher load range armament ?

ok deep strike role

then we have su34 built specially as a strike fighter / FIGHTER BOMBER
it has all range payload armament and ROLE capability

plus you forgot to compare the price in these cases

anyways

lets agree to disagree

I have not considered sukhoi 30 mki for deep strike missions due to higher rcs. Price difference will be there, one is primarily a interceptor & other is an omnirole aircraft. Just look at IAFs threat perception. IAF going to face combo of j10 series, f16, jf17, j11, j16 & what not. To keep in check the overwhelming numbersrs of enemy aircrafts, IAF needs force multipliers like sukhoi30mki, Rafales, LCAs. Each aircraft will be equally importent to keep our adversaries at bay. Each will complement each other at time of war.
MMRCA will act as force multiplier, LCA will give us numerical advantage.
Right now priority must be given to quick aquisation of new aircrafts to restore our depleted force level.
Note: Yes Su34 is dedicated strike fighter much suited for IAF, but it needs escorts to protect itself from enemy fighters, on the other hand rafales & sukhois can look after themsalves. Thats why our emphasis is on inducting true multi role fighters. Same reason why IAF ordered drdo, hal to convert LCA from dedicated interceptor to a fighter with multirole capability.

 

[Trawllu]

Note: Yes Su34 is dedicated strike fighter much suited for IAF, but it needs escorts to protect itself from enemy fighters, on the other hand rafales & sukhois can look after themsalves. Thats why our emphasis is on inducting true multi role fighters. Same reason why IAF ordered drdo, hal to convert LCA from dedicated interceptor to a fighter with multirole capability.

pl read up on Su34

it is not dedicated strike fighter

it is FIGHTER BOMBER pl look it up

 

[The_Sidewinder]

pl read up on Su34

it is not dedicated strike fighter

it is FIGHTER BOMBER pl look it up

Jeez....do you know the difference between air superority role vs strike/ bombing role. Just read up the following link.

Sukhoi Su-34 (Fullback) - Fighter-Bomber / Strike Fighter - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft

You came up with su34fullbacks at first place, not me.

Yes su34 has its own arnament to protect itself against enemy fighters, but it is not as swifter inshifting to airsuperiority
role unlike Su30mki or Rafale, thats why it needs air escorts in hostile environment.

 

[TimeTraveller]

First of all, Please dont call me sir. I will preffer to be called mate or bro. As per my knowledge, Rafales are meant to replace both jaguars & mig 27. Yes, Jaguars are being upgraded & it will extend their service life. Jaguars will be used in CAS role more, for deep strike missions, Rafales will be used for their low rcs & better ew suits, maybe even over Sukhoi 30 mki. Jaguars will be slowly replaced by last few batches of rafales, if I :am not wrong. Maybe more knowledgable members like @sancho @Abingdonboy will be able to paint a clear picture on this regard.

Both. You need to see this in context of threat perception and the time frame.
By the end of this decade, Mig 21 and 27 would be gone. Along with this J 17 will be fielded in large numbers along with newer generation Chinese fighters. These planes will make Jaguars in next decade or so obsolete.
now you need to consider what options you have to plug this gap.
Rafale owing to its omni-role capabilities will do so effectively. Also assuming it gets inducted from 2016, it will undergo its first upgrades 2025-26 onwards keeping it at par with anything 4.5 gen fielded in the region.
& when we talk of price tag, we must consider that it always is better to have a single fighter in inventory for a work which simplifies cost of flying and maintaining.

Thanks both of you for clearing my doubt....One more question, Is there any possibility for India to built more than 126 rafales because india is getting TOT with Dassault, so it should replace Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with rafales also + mass produce atleast 200+ otherwise what will be the use of TOT...?

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Thanks both of you for clearing my doubt....One more question, Is there any possibility for India to built more than 126 rafales because india is getting TOT with Dassault, so it should replace Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with rafales also + mass produce atleast 200+ otherwise what will be the use of TOT...?

Yes there are possibilities for sure. If our economy keeps on growing, & Rafale performs according to IAF's expectation, numbers will surely increase to 200 plus. But there are other variables as well. Only time will tell.