Slow modernisation of capabilities a big concern: IAF chief

[Trawllu]

Thanks both of you for clearing my doubt....One more question, Is there any possibility for India to built more than 126 rafales because india is getting TOT with Dassault, so it should replace Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with rafales also + mass produce atleast 200+ otherwise what will be the use of TOT...?

dont confuse ToT with licensce to mfg

ToT means giving the knowhow of selected technologies nothing to do with building more rafales

Licensing for mfg means - right now we can build 108 rafales if we need to build more we have to pay extra and then obtain permission to build more and then build more

Both. You need to see this in context of threat perception and the time frame.
By the end of this decade, Mig 21 and 27 would be gone. Along with this J 17 will be fielded in large numbers along with newer generation Chinese fighters. These planes will make Jaguars in next decade or so obsolete.
now you need to consider what options you have to plug this gap.
Rafale owing to its omni-role capabilities will do so effectively. Also assuming it gets inducted from 2016, it will undergo its first upgrades 2025-26 onwards keeping it at par with anything 4.5 gen fielded in the region.
& when we talk of price tag, we must consider that it always is better to have a single fighter in inventory for a work which simplifies cost of flying and maintaining.

@TimeTraveller

when i asked why odes IAF want to replace low end Mig21 tihe rafels
you replied rafales are not replacing migs21 they will replace Jag + Mig27 & Mig21 will be replace by LCA

now your this question and this answer clearly indicates Mig21 will be replaced by Rafales - Why?

also

if LCA is the replacement for Mig21 and Mig21 are going to be retired by 2020-2022 then should we be ordering rafales (126) or ordering LCA Tejas in mass nos ?

make up your mind dont play IAF games

l

 

[anant_s]

Thanks both of you for clearing my doubt....One more question, Is there any possibility for India to built more than 126 rafales because india is getting TOT with Dassault, so it should replace Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with rafales also + mass produce atleast 200+ otherwise what will be the use of TOT...?

Both Mirage and Fulcrum have undergone upgrades recently and we can expect them to be in air till atleast 2025-30.
As far increasing the number of rafales is concerned this issue will definitely come up in a decade or so. But a lot will depend on what IAF will be planning for (threats ie). Remember by 2020-25 IAF will look quite different as compared to now, with Su 30, LCA and Rafale becoming workhorses with M2K and Mig 29 remaining in small numbers. Also FGFA would've started to get inducted and then it will become a question of how well the fleet is covering for the IAF's requirements. So Rafale with its AESA and other advanced suites will be an ideal candidate for replacing Mig 29 and M2K albeit at a cost.
Also ToT is insisted for domestic industry development. India wants to use the experience in LCA future versions and AMCA as well. For increasing production all you need is to get additional licence from Dassault but apparently we want more than just that.

dont confuse ToT with licensce to mfg

Well said.

 

[anant_s]

Mig21 will be replaced by Rafales - Why?

because that is how MMRCA originated (to replace Fishbeds). However the competition has taken so long coupled with delays in LCA program that we have now come to a period that some other classes are also at the fag end of their career and hence the program has to somehow accommodate for this changed scenario as well. In all likelihood LCA will replace mig 21 for for other classes Rafale is a very good choice. also please bear in mind that with a capable plane like Rafale, you don't need them in numbers as 1 is to 1 repacement.
If our planners play their cards well (i'm sure they will) and choose weapon systems and suites wisely, Rafale will become the most potent machine flying in the region.

 

[Trawllu]

yes i can see rafale bhakti and rafale arti

 

[Storm Force]

It will be very expensive for iaf to acquire more than 125 rafale even spread over a decade.

I think the question how to replace the mirage2000 and mig 29.and how to add more sqds from 33 to 39.

My guess it will be more lca ie

250 mki
200 lca
125 rafale
100 Fgfa

By 2035

 

[Levina]

@levina
My bad sorry

Lol
You dont've to be sorry for tagging me on this thread.Infact I'm glad you did bcoz such threads keep me updated.
But frankly I get jittery when I've to comment on such technical threads...my knowledge on this topic is limited.

 

[holysaturn]

Look now I am tired,.you have just put various factors like rcs, payload capacity, range, avionics of fighters, arnament etc out of equation. Iaf has a solid doctrain, our ACMs know more than keyboard warriors like us. Kargil was an unprecidented event, no other airforce in the world has to operate through such constrains before. Mig 27s were not meant to do that job, so iaf modified mirrage2000 & became successfull. Maybe for one last time, I am going to try to put forward a valid argument.

Dassault Rafale Specifications
Primary Function:
Multi-role fighter / reconn.
Contractor:
Dassault
Crew:
Single or twin seater
Unit Cost:
N/A
Powerplant
Two SNECMA M88-3 turbofans each
rated at 19,555 lb (86.98 kN) with
afterburning -- Rafale C
Dimensions
Length:
50 ft 3 in (15.3 m)
Wingspan:
35 ft 9 in (10.9 m)
Height:
17 ft 6 in (5.34 m)
Weights
Empty:
N/A
Maximum Takeoff:
47,399 lb (21500 kg) -- Rafale C
Performance
Speed:
Maximum level speed 'clean' at
36,090 ft (11000 m) 1,321 mph
(1,147 kt / 2125 km/h) -- Rafale C
Ceiling:
60,000 ft
Range:
1000 nm
Armament
Cannon: 1 30mm DEFA 554; Mica,
R.550 Magic 2, BGL 400

tech specs for LCA Tejas
(MK1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4
in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft
11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9
in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413
ft²)
Empty weight: 6,560 kg
(14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,500
kg (23,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight:
13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × General
Electric F404-GE-IN20
turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN
(11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner:
85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity:
2,458 kg
External fuel capacity:
2x 1,200 litre drop tank
at inboard, 1x 725 litre
drop tank under
fuselage
Maximum speed: Mach
1.8 (2,376+ km/h at
high altitude) at 15,000
m
Range: 3,000 km (1,840
mi) without refueling
Service ceiling: 15,250 m
(50,000 ft
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/
m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.91
g-limits: +9

If you see LCA legs behind in arnament, range & payload etc. It simply cant perform the roles mmrca winner supposed to play. LCA is a low multi role point defence fighter where as Rafale is meant for primarily deep strike missions due to its lower rcs & EW capability. Sukhoi 30 mki will be air superiority component of IAF.

@nair
Yes, I agree to. Indrcision from GOI has seriously crippled IAFs ability & squadron strength.
@levina
my bad, sorry.

These brochure comparisons are at best lame. The above mentioned range and payload stats are in European conditions for rafale and in Indian conditions for lca tejas. These are subject to significant changes.

The fuel fraction of the rafale is around 33% and lca around 26-28% and the specific fuel consumption of 404 and m88 are nearly the same so if the rafale has to show much greater range than tejas then it has to carry huge external tanks which will be detrimental to the wing loading thereby agility,decrease the weapon load,increase cruise drag at low altitude(which will be the operating altitude against good air defences which Mali,Libya remotely are) ,in addition the drag polars of rafale will be higher because of canards and the boat drag which is unique to twin engine fighters.

All these comparisons can only be made by live test conditions involving both aircraft much like the t-90,arjun trials.There were cases where air marshal barbora made statements that the rafales range was trice that of tejas which was proven to be utterly rubbish by technical experts. This was one of the classic cases(along with HTT-40,pilatus cost estimates) where the air force top brass made unsubstantiated,subjective claims to help cement imports.

 

[Trawllu]

It will be very expensive for iaf to acquire more than 125 rafale even spread over a decade.

I think the question how to replace the mirage2000 and mig 29.and how to add more sqds from 33 to 39.

My guess it will be more lca ie

250 mki
200 lca
125 rafale
100 Fgfa

By 2035

how does it add nos
even today we have about 650 ac
even in 2035 by these figs we will have only 675

also sqds ae now made up of 20 ac = 16 line ac + 2 sqd reserves + 2 trainers

so only 34 sqds even by 2035

 

[The_Sidewinder]

These brochure comparisons are at best lame. The above mentioned range and payload stats are in European conditions for rafale and in Indian conditions for lca tejas. These are subject to significant changes.

The fuel fraction of the rafale is around 33% and lca around 26-28% and the specific fuel consumption of 404 and m88 are nearly the same so if the rafale has to show much greater range than tejas then it has to carry huge external tanks which will be detrimental to the wing loading thereby agility,decrease the weapon load,increase cruise drag at low altitude(which will be the operating altitude against good air defences which Mali,Libya remotely are) ,in addition the drag polars of rafale will be higher because of canards and the boat drag which is unique to twin engine fighters.

All these comparisons can only be made by live test conditions involving both aircraft much like the t-90,arjun trials.There were cases where air marshal barbora made statements that the rafales range was trice that of tejas which was proven to be utterly rubbish by technical experts. This was one of the classic cases(along with HTT-40,pilatus cost estimates) where the air force top brass made unsubstantiated,subjective claims to help cement imports.

I agree with you, but only a lame man will directly substitute Rafales with LCA. To be honest, LCAs are not inducted yet, it will take years to mature. The specs I put up were from neutral source. We can go on & on debating about the issue, but meanwhile, IAF squadron strength will go on depleting

 

[holysaturn]

I agree with you, but only a lame man will directly substitute Rafales with LCA. To be honest, LCAs are not inducted yet, it will take years to mature. The specs I put up were from neutral source. We can go on & on debating about the issue, but meanwhile, IAF squadron strength will go on depleting

Yes I agree that the LCA is not mature but the MMRCA was born out a requirement which wanted single engined,maintance friendly mirage-2000.The specs were upgraded on insistence of manufacturers rather than IAF needs.Now saying that rafale kind of capability is absolutely necessary for the country at all costs is baloney,no country operates the three variety of fighters at once which the IAF stipulates.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Yes I agree that the LCA is not mature but the MMRCA was born out a requirement which wanted single engined,maintance friendly mirage-2000.The specs were upgraded on insistence of manufacturers rather than IAF needs.Now saying that rafale kind of capability is absolutely necessary for the country at all costs is baloney,no country operates the three variety of fighters at once which the IAF stipulates.

Yes that being true, no other country faces two strong adversaries like IAF do, for us, two front war might become reality, we do need high end fighters like Rafales to get combative edge over PAF & most fighters of PLAAF. I hope both fighters gets inducted in reasonable numbers in years to come.

 

[holysaturn]

Yes that being true, no other country faces two strong adversaries like IAF do, for us, two front war might become reality, we do need high end fighters like Rafales to get combative edge over PAF & most fighters of PLAAF. I hope both fighters gets inducted in reasonable numbers in years to come.

If a two front war happens India cant hold its territory let alone winning ,with or without rafale. An aymmetric approach is needed not a symmetric one with expensive imported fighters.
We need fighter which can operate from austere runways,highways and generate sorties high enough to give a bloody nose to the enemy even if air superiority is lost(which we will lose for sure).
Rafales in the beginning days of the war will be targeted as they can only operate from good runways and being hanger queens in the airfields considering even peace time availability is 44%(war time availability will always be far worse) will fall prey to cruise, ballistic missiles and air attacks. So maturing the LCA and operationalizing it should be our priority.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Yes, Indeed. Maybe we need to invest more on air defence network, radar network more than ever. I hope lca matures soon & performs at such a level washing out all its blemishes away.
I hope it will surely one day prove to be TEJAS.

@holysaturn

 

[jha]

Go Rafale Go..

 

[Trawllu]

I agree with you, but only a lame man will directly substitute Rafales with LCA. To be honest, LCAs are not inducted yet, it will take years to mature. The specs I put up were from neutral source. We can go on & on debating about the issue, but meanwhile, IAF squadron strength will go on depleting

nobody is asking rafale be substituted by LCA

what we are saying is Rafale is not needed as Su30MKI can do all jobs that rafale can

LCA is nos filler - replacing mig21 etc