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Sino-Japanese Rift is part of US is part of US strategy, says an ex diploma

I support Japanese politicians like Yukio Hatoyama and Shintaro Ishihara.
They are reasonable people who are for their country.

Japan should have good relations with China. Soon, China is going to have a larger economy than the USA by 2017, the Islamic world deeply despises the USA.

Even European countries like France and Germany don't like the USA.
And you know this how, genius? I was born in and lived in Germany for many years...not all loved Americans...but most did (even many of the old folks who had fought in the war) The only group I saw that got a lot of sh*t were the Turks. And there were no Pakistanis to be seen...unless they were lumped in with Turks... (This is a generalisation...I have a cousin in Mannhiem...his wife doesn't like Americans...lol) And Oldman beat me to the punch...I thought it was clever how we tricked Japan into invading China...and tricked China into claiming every one's territory.
 
I was referring to American cars actually. General Motors passed Toyota Motor in the first half of 2011 to become the largest automaker in the world. It is also the top-selling brand in China. GM’s presence in the country is still expanding. In the first half of 2010, the company sold more vehicles in China than in the U.S. for the first time ever. At that time, China accounted for a quarter of the company’s global sales, according to the New York Times. Since 2000, the company’s market share in China has grown from 3.4% to 12.8%. In other words EU and US brands sales can increase further now that their competitors are being ignored by the consumers.

I don't know why you even bother to explain it to me as if we don't know that US have been stationed there after WW2 and that they have the obligation to protect Japan and holding joint military drills with JSDF. Perhaps i should have been more specific that they were holding exercises near Diaoyu Island recently at a time when tensions are running high.

Go read these 2 articles for the following quotes.
Cairo Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Potsdam Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914."

"All the territories Japan has stolen from China such as Manchuria (Dongbei), Formosa (Taiwan), and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to the Republic of China."

"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943."

Because Diaoyu island and the surrounding small islands were not mentioned by names in the declarations China and Japan are still in dispute which both nations agreed to freeze this issue in the 70's to re-establish economic relation. Hopefully you can see the US is part of the mess.

You don't convince me if US is not gonna benefit if the yuan-yen deal is off. China is Japan's largest trading partner. In 2011 bilateral trade grew 14.3 percent in value to a record $345 billion. US wouldn't want
to loose their influence in Asia.

First of all, you do know America's Car mean the car that MADE IN AMERICA and sell in China right? Not an American Company invest in Chinese company and made car in China and sell those car in China. If you make cars in China and sell them in China, those are Chinese Car, there are almost no profit to the American Government. Do bear in mind US Government do not own GM.

This does not do any good on America at all, as there are no tax on those car (AS they were made and sold in China) no employment or job created (As they were made in China) and there are no revenue on those car so no buying tide (As they were sold in China). Basically how the brand perform in China is no business in America, except i canonly thing of stock price, if the GM investment are doing good in China, the stock price of GM will go up. But you know GM file for bankrupcy in America in 2011 right?

If what you are saying is either GM Brand in China make car in China and sell them back to America or GM brand make them in America then selling them back to China, then we are on the same path.

GM invest in a lot of brand all over the world, not only in China, and most GM investment are done by independent investment and there are no US Government Involvement. You won't call Holden is an American Car even thought they are in controlled by GM. If you call Holden an American car, a lot of angry aussie will come to your door......Even Ford, car made by Ford in Australia are Australian car, not American car. For the reason explained before.

Then the Occupation, US-Japan Naval Exercise does not just started when the Senkaku Island is being disputed. They started in 1955. Where do they do exercise is not exactly a saying by the US Government. US Navy can either join the exercise or not join the exercise. Whether you like it or not, there are going to be 5-7 naval exercise happened in a year. Again, unless you claim there are more exercise than before because there are tension between Japan and China, otherwise youe point is invalid. Do bear in mind the military cooperation between Japan and the US is not because they have a dispute in Senkaku island, they are comign down the long way.

I do familiar with both Cairo and Potsdam Declaration. I have no say whether or not Senkaku belong to Japan or China, read my other thread http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...enkakus-japanese-territory-4.html#post3537809 for more detail.
Seems to me the absent of Senkaku island is a mistake, if you have to say this is the US trick play to have set forth the dispute and distrub the peace in Japan Sea, you need to remember both British prime minister Churchill and ROC Leader Chiang Kai-shek were present in the Conference, will you also accuse both character playing with the situation? If you do then that's very strange as ROC is one of the entity claiming the Senkaku island, so they intentionly missed out the island so they can be enjoy the claim and clashes with the Japanese?? That's really funny...

The problem with the US involvement with Senkaku island is, they govern it in a period of 1945-1976 as part of Ryukyu Island chain and US involvement with the island ended when they give them back to the Japanese. What Japanese do with it and what japanese do to Chinese cliam are outside US Foreign Policy scope, Neither side request the help or solitiate form the US or UN. I really don't see why you think US Order japan to buy the island and control it, as the Japanese say, it'e their internal matter. What US has got to do with the Island? Please be more specific on the topic.

I mean how exactly or why exactly would America support Japan to take back the Island? Japanese will not share even some of the resource with America, from where i see it, Japanese took the Island back is actually bad for American Economy, as Japan will require less resource import from America (Mainly oil) and that would damage the American Economy if they took the island back.

About the exchange rate. If you look clearly the Yuan-Yen deal is good for China and bad for Japan as Japan has been using US dollar to do foreign exchange. In this case, if Japan continue using US Dollar for trade beside China, there are low to no damage to American Stock market. I do agree China is the biggest market with the Japanese and sacking the deal will be a blow to the Japanese, not the American, but i don't see how it will change the US-Japanese deal, which remain unchange as Japan will continue to use US Dollar even after Yuan-Yen deal have been put thru.

And finally the influence, yes, US will not want to lose the influence in Asia, but how do you lose influence if you do not help Japan to take the island back? Answer me this.

The only way US loses influence in Asia is ALL THE ALLIES turn their back against the US, which i don't think it will achieve by not supporting the Japanese on the Sankaku Movement. You do know US do not just have Japan as an alliance in Asia right? I don't even think if Japan will kick out all the American personnel if they don't help the Japs take the island......

So tell me, how exactly US will lose the influence if China were to gain the Senkakus? That does not make sense...

And also, you should try format your paragraph into more seperate and distant with each point, it's very confusing, im inclined not to reply to you simply i cannot follow all the words....
 
You do know that US government has plenty of GM stocks right? Even if GM files for bankruptcy the US government will bail them out.
With American cars i actually meant American brand cars, whether the car is manufactured in China or in the US is not really the point, as long GM can sell more that means their stocks will start rising again.

Back to the declarations, i never said the US was using this as a trick for disturbing peace between China and Japan. All i said was the islands were not mentioned clearly on the documents back then. Chiang Kai Shek did not represent whole of China, as you know China was divided by two parties CPC and KMT. I think the declaration was written by an American and therefore there's no reason to blame Churchill. If we would have to blame then it would be US and maybe Chiang Kai Shek. What i don't know is why wasn't Mao or any CPC representative at the Cairo Conference. Whether it would have made any difference to avoid today's conflict i will leave it out because there's no point to discuss the CPC's absence right now. Perhaps Chiang Kai Shek thought the Diaoyu islands were included in the declaration after all the document said "all stolen territories by Japan would be returned to China".

I don't understand what you mean with China would be the only one to benefit with the yuan-yen direct trading. If it doesn't benefit Japan why would they agree such thing? If ASEAN countries would also follow this example in the future this would reduce the US$ influence in Asia that's what i mean with influence. I wasn't talking about US helping Japan taking back any islands.
According to Prof. Ding Zhijie, dean of School of Banking & Finance, UIBE, said, "It raises the convertibility of the yuan. And I believe the yuan trading will be accepted by more Asian economies as well as the international markets. It will also push forward the internationalization of the yuan."
The direct trading could save the two countries some 3 billion dollars of transaction fees annually. Zhu Yan, professor of political science & economics, Takushoku University, said, "The new mechanism means trade between the two nations can be settled directly, bypassing the US dollar." China is Japan's largest trading partner, and bilateral trade reached as high as 300 billion US dollars in 2010. About 60 percent of Japan-China trade is conducted in dollars. The direct trading will boost bilateral investment, as well as imports and exports. It will bring convenience in business and lead to considerable reduction of risks caused by fluctuation of the dollar's exchange rates on the world market.

So really if it doesn't benefit both countries then i don't know what is. If other Asian countries would also promote this kind of mechanism then whole Asia can save lots of transaction fee. This means less demand for US$ in Asia thus US$ influence is reduced.
 
You do know that US government has plenty of GM stocks right? Even if GM files for bankruptcy the US government will bail them out.
With American cars i actually meant American brand cars, whether the car is manufactured in China or in the US is not really the point, as long GM can sell more that means their stocks will start rising again.

Back to the declarations, i never said the US was using this as a trick for disturbing peace between China and Japan. All i said was the islands were not mentioned clearly on the documents back then. Chiang Kai Shek did not represent whole of China, as you know China was divided by two parties CPC and KMT. I think the declaration was written by an American and therefore there's no reason to blame Churchill. If we would have to blame then it would be US and maybe Chiang Kai Shek. What i don't know is why wasn't Mao or any CPC representative at the Cairo Conference. Whether it would have made any difference to avoid today's conflict i will leave it out because there's no point to discuss the CPC's absence right now. Perhaps Chiang Kai Shek thought the Diaoyu islands were included in the declaration after all the document said "all stolen territories by Japan would be returned to China".

I don't understand what you mean with China would be the only one to benefit with the yuan-yen direct trading. If it doesn't benefit Japan why would they agree such thing? If ASEAN countries would also follow this example in the future this would reduce the US$ influence in Asia that's what i mean with influence. I wasn't talking about US helping Japan taking back any islands.
According to Prof. Ding Zhijie, dean of School of Banking & Finance, UIBE, said, "It raises the convertibility of the yuan. And I believe the yuan trading will be accepted by more Asian economies as well as the international markets. It will also push forward the internationalization of the yuan."
The direct trading could save the two countries some 3 billion dollars of transaction fees annually. Zhu Yan, professor of political science & economics, Takushoku University, said, "The new mechanism means trade between the two nations can be settled directly, bypassing the US dollar." China is Japan's largest trading partner, and bilateral trade reached as high as 300 billion US dollars in 2010. About 60 percent of Japan-China trade is conducted in dollars. The direct trading will boost bilateral investment, as well as imports and exports. It will bring convenience in business and lead to considerable reduction of risks caused by fluctuation of the dollar's exchange rates on the world market.

So really if it doesn't benefit both countries then i don't know what is. If other Asian countries would also promote this kind of mechanism then whole Asia can save lots of transaction fee. This means less demand for US$ in Asia thus US$ influence is reduced.

This is better now i can see your point clearly.

The US government did actually hold many of the GM Share now, i ahve to point this out, but this is because GM filed for bankruptcy in 2011 and Government become the biggest administrator of GM (Well, simply because nobody want to bail it out). WHen GM are in the black again, the government will sell all its share

You need to know US Government generally do not interfere with The private sector, so they will let go either when GM is totally busted or GM is back on track, eitherway, it does not change the term for a bit, the only way to earn money by make and selling anything oversea is their stock price. And as far as i know, even if the US Government were benefiting fro mthe whole GM-Chinese Issue (Which is not) Majority of the money will goes to the GM Debtor to pay off the debt and get out of bankrupcy.

To the cairo declaration, there are many flaw in your theory, first one being you don't know who draft the Whole declaration. Even if you do you can't explain how the intentionally missed and in the end they were spot on that the only place or land that they missed will land a major dispute in 21 century? You know the Cairo Declaration is written and signed in the 1943 and not until 1969, did people know there is oil in the area. You do realise the China did not even say a word when US is administrating the Island and only openly claim the island on 1971. So you are saying, so you are saying the US are either THAT INSIGHTFUL or they have some sort of power to predict the future?

Also ,it's common sense that you read and think before you sign, especially in those national level. Even if you go and rent a home, you will read carefully what someone else drafting for you right? Not to mention in that national scale. Even if it's like you say, the US Draft the declaration, which you have no proof, the ROC and Britain still need to read it and sign.

THe third thing being not only Senkaku is left out, there are a lot of Japanese occupation territories are left out too. Places like Kwantong, Both Korea and Western China were not mentioned in the declaration. Does that mean they should contest those too?

As i said, from what i see, whoever draft the cairo declaration think senkaku is small enough to left out or just forgot it ever exist, it's a commulated problem with all 3 parties signing the declaration, not just the American. Of course you can still blame the American if you want, you just have no point.

About the Yuan-yen deal, i did not ever say the deal is bad for japan, in my last response, i said it's bad for japan and good for china IF THE DEAL IS BACKED OFF. which is what you were saying in the previous post, since i was just replying your point i assume you know what i was saying. It's a double benefit to China and Japan if the deal would gone ahead and it will not damage the US if the deal gone ahead, again, unless once they have linked RMB to Yen and japan no longer uses USD to trade with foreign country. Then it will damage the US Dollar as Japan is one of the major reserve of US Dollar in the world. But the truth is, while the world still use US dollar, Japan will NOT abandon US Dollar as their Trading Currency. And if this is so, then whatever Japanese do will not Damage the value of US Dollar.

In this case the RMB is not linked to the Yen, then China will come out ahead, while Japan have setback and US will not change. AS RMB is higher value than Yen and Japan will bound to lose some CHinese market if they are not link to RMB and US will not change anything as both China and Japan will keep using US Dollar when trading with US.

You dont need to give me data on how much Japan have spend on the Chinese Market, i have already told you i know the Japanese is one of the Chinese Major trading partner. But the currency and the value of USD is not just depend on the Sino-Japan trading relation alone. There are about 5 trillion trading with US Dollar in the world last year(3 trillion in 2010), 1 trillion of those is inside US and EU. So even with a few billion lost is not an issue, but then, i doubted even China will cease using US Dollar to trade. I think China have more US Dollar than Japan ( I even believe China have the most US Currency outside US, i am not sure and i need to verify this), so, by pissing Chinese off, we actually creat a more dired situation and more problem with our currency than we sided with Japan, so what you are saying does not make sense, if the Chinese and Japanese trading relation is as you said, then we should be siding with the Chinese, not with the Japs......

You are underestimating the World economy that build on US Dollar, or you are Overestimating the Trading between Japan and China. I seriously doubt they will create any dent if Asia cease to trade with US Dollar and even if they do, that will only moderately damage the US Dollar. Whether or not China or Japan uses US Dollar between each other, it will not stop US Dollar as the world dominate currency.

Again, i am still waiting on how Japan gain control on Senkaku will benefit the US, i can see it benefit the Japs, i don't see how they can benefit the US.
 
Again, i am still waiting on how Japan gain control on Senkaku will benefit the US, i can see it benefit the Japs, i don't see how they can benefit the US.

We could have kept many islands we took from Japan yet we didn't.
 
China believes that South East Asia's Laos, Cambodia, Philippine could be a profit for it's muscle. Chinese aggression against those countries is imminent. China believes 580b in Afghan war and 808b in Iraq war will keep US away from interfering. Moreover, US is even reluctant to take a stance in Sino-Japanese Wrath. May be time for US to pack their luggage from Okinawa. I wish China show more muscle.
 
I don't even know whats fair when you beat an enemy and return the islands.

Lol if you say stuff like that then we should keep kuwait after we kicked Saddam out of it....Kuwait worth a lot more than senkaku

China believes that South East Asia's Laos, Cambodia, Philippine could be a profit for it's muscle. Chinese aggression against those countries is imminent. China believes 580b in Afghan war and 808b in Iraq war will keep US away from interfering. Moreover, US is even reluctant to take a stance in Sino-Japanese Wrath. May be time for US to pack their luggage from Okinawa. I wish China show more muscle.

You can't pack the whole carrier fleet up, you either fight the whole carrier group or you lose.
 
Lol if you say stuff like that then we should keep kuwait after we kicked Saddam out of it....Kuwait worth a lot more than senkaku

But Kuwait was not Iraqi territory. And in any case the goal was liberating Kuwait and protecting Saudi Arabia. And we don't even know how valuable Senkaku is. For some reason Japan and China treats it like a giant fresh meat between 2 hungry lions.
 
I don't even know whats fair when you beat an enemy and return the islands.

Cairo Declaration
- The Allies are not fighting Japan for their own territorial expansion.

If it wasn't for statement it would have given the US a reason to make Japan their own territory. Something you probably support.
 
Cairo Declaration
- The Allies are not fighting Japan for their own territorial expansion.

If it wasn't for statement it would have given the US a reason to make Japan their own territory. Something you probably support.

Yet they could have easily retracted those words. But as they said actions speaks louder than words.
 
@ jhungary

The main points of the document were:
- The Allies are not fighting Japan for their own territorial expansion.
- The Allies are resolved to bring unrelenting military pressure against Japan until it agrees to unconditional surrender.
- Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.
- All the territories Japan has stolen from China such as Manchuria (Dongbei), Formosa (Taiwan), and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to the Republic of China.
- The Allies are determined that Korea shall become free and independent.
- Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed.

You said Korea was not mentioned see #5, i think you should read the wiki page. See #4, it says territory such as. So naturally Kwantong falls in this category. I understand what you are trying to say. If Kwantong wasn't specifically mentioned by name according to you then the same can also be applied to Diaoyu island. I have no idea why China and Taiwan weren't protesting in 1945 when US was governing those islands.

Anyway i never said anything about the link between RMB and Yen, only that the yuan-yen deal would save transaction fees, if other Asian countries would do the same everyone has a win-win situation. Also i never said the US$ would lose their dominance as world currency because every country still use US$ to trade with America. You are assuming so much and making a long story out of nothing.
 
But Kuwait was not Iraqi territory. And in any case the goal was liberating Kuwait and protecting Saudi Arabia. And we don't even know how valuable Senkaku is. For some reason Japan and China treats it like a giant fresh meat between 2 hungry lions.

LOL I was just joking, nothing intented. And Senkaku have oil
 

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