Since Earliest Historical Times Hinduism Was Never Popular in Pakistan

[Carl Johnson]

Perfect example of fucked up mind. Not long ago you was proud of being Chura from UP who though looked like European and even posted your photo. And now you are using Chura as insult, thats why i say be proud of what you are. No need to claim anything which isn't yours, being Chura sweeper is not insulting.

Lol Choora and chamar are different castes . Being a choora convert , you must know that . You are the one who is insulting by calling people chamars when there are millions of chamars in pakistan as well . I did not insult anyone . Just stating the fact . I apologise if I offended your low caste self . You also be proud of what you are . Don't claim to be someone or something not related to you .

 

[Nassr]

Provide sources. Your article is a historical fantasy, sadly our people do not seem to know the difference. The land between indus, from which the word hindu comes, and ganges is the birth place of hinduism and buddhism. It.s bonkers to think that they weren.t popular here or accepted. We.re proud muslims, yes, but we.re proud of our history as well.

Mr. Chairman,

It becomes exciting when a shrimp starts making proclamations about history. However, just to satisfy your misplaced ego, I will quote some of the references for your satisfaction, though those of us who have some knowledge about history would not need many references to accept the narrated facts.

For various dates mentioned about Indus Valley Civilization Wikipedia is good enough.

For IVC being monotheist, please read Penguin History of India by Romila Thapar and papers written by Khan A. Sufyan amongst others.

About definition of Hindu religion and its emanation, please read

G. Singh,Sakasthan and India, Toronto, 1999, p. 20
Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India, New Delhi,1983, p.75
Swami Dharma Theertha, History of HinduImperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178
KhushwantSingh, India: An Introduction, New Delhi, 1990, p. 19
Percival Spear, India: A Modern History, Michigan,1961, p.40
Encyclopedia Britannica, 20 `Hinduism' 519

For the Buddhist gandhara Srolls, please read the article at
http://www.washington.edu/uwpress/search/books/SALANC.html
University of Washington Press - Books - Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara

For references of Alexander and Porus and its relationship to Rig Veda described tribes, please read

Decline and Fall of Buddhism: A Tragedy in Ancient India, K. Jamanadas, Blumoon Books, 2004
Political and Social Movement in Ancient Punjab, By Buddha Prakash, pp 77
A History of its Culture and Civilisation, By Kosambi, Damodar Dharmanand, pp 81-83
A History of India, By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermung, pp 57
The founders of Indus valley civilization and their later history, By Naval Viyogi, pp 155

For details about Mauryan Empire, please read

The Mauryas: Chandragupta
The First Great Political Realist: Kautilya and His Arthashastra, by Boesche, Roger, 2003.
P. 266 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 1 By James Hastings
P. 92 Paurānic and Tāntric Religion: Early Phase By Jitendra Nath Banerjea
P. 212 Age of the Nandas and Mauryas By K. A. Nilakanta Sastri

About Kushan Empire, please read

Monotheism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy.
"Afghanistan: Central Asian and Sassanian Rule, ca. 150 B.C.-700 A.D.". United States: Library of Congress Country Studies. 1997
Xinru Liu, The Silk Road in World History (New York: Oxford University Press, 2010)

For references about Kabul Shahi Kingdoms, please read

Sehrai, Fidaullah (1979). Hund: The Forgotten City of Gandhara, p. 2. Peshawar Museum Publications New Series, Peshawar.
The Pathans, 1958, p 108, 109, Olaf Caroe.
Geography of Ancient and Medieval India, 1971, p 100-102, 108, Dr D. C. Sircar

For Mohammad Bin Qasim’s invasion of Sindh, please read the Chach Nama.

For references on Islamic invasion of Afghanistan, please read

Islamic Conquest, Library of Congress Country Studies on Afghanistan
Ancient Indian History and Civilization, by Sailendra Nath Sen
The Afghans, Edition: illustrated Published by Wiley-Blackwell, 2002
A Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-West Frontier Province Vol. 3 By H.A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson Sir Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 1997


Mr. Chairman, whoever told you that Ganges was the birth place of Hinduism and Buddhism. Ever heard the name Aryavarta. Have you ever had the occasion of reading history as it should be read, without “Pride and Prejudice.”

Sir, you may be a very proud Muslim, but I am a proud Pakistani as well.

Thank you indeed for your voluminous comments, the weight of which is indeed killing me.

Excellent,i always knew that pakistanis had to be something inferior,no wonder they converted.

Please do not get angry. I have highlighted historical facts. Your opinion should be based on understanding the history in true perspective and not anger.

 

[INDIC]

This one is what i have read on another forum saying very much same thing :


Facts about the pre-Muslim ancestors of Pakistanis:

1. The word/term "Hindu/Hinduism" is a recent construct. It were the
Muslim invaders who for the first time in history imposed this foreign
term in South Asia to the countless distinct local religions. Not a
single pre-Muslim era Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South
Asian scripture/inscription mentions the word "Hindu/Hinduism".

2. Before the advent of Islam, the majority of people in the region of
Pakistan were Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Animists/Pagans/Shamanists.
Brahmanists/Shaivites were a minority in Pakistan. Harappans ate beef,
buried the dead, had no Hindu temples/idols/deities, etc. RigVedic
Aryans forbade idolatory, ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste
system, most Hindu deities were absent among them, etc. Under Persian
rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread. Similarly, Greek Paganism
spread under the Greeks. Asoka brought Buddhism, which was later also
propagated along with Zoroastrianism and Animism/Shamanism/Paganism
under the Bactrians, Sakas, Parthians, and Kushans. White Huns
(Iranian Huns/Hepthalites) were not very fond of Buddhism.

3. A significant minority of Pakistanis are descendents of Arab,
Iranian, Turkic, Mughal and Afghan invaders/migrants, who just like
the rest of the ancestors of Pakistanis were Zoroastrians,
Animists/Pagans/Shamanists, and Buddhists before Islam.

4. Pre-1947 region of present-day Pakistan only had 15% non-Muslims,
out of which half were Sikhs. Many of remaining half that were Hindus
were actual migrants from the region of present day India during the
British rule. For example, most of the Hindus in pre-1947 Karachi had
migrated from Gujarat/Rajasthan during British rule because of
Karachi's economic boom then.


On the pre-1947 non-Muslim population in present day region of
Pakistan:

1. W. Punjab: 9% Hindu, 11% Sikh
2. Sindh: 10% Hindu, 5% Sikh
3. NWFP: 2.5% Hindu, 2.5% Sikh
4. Baluchistan: 3% Hindu

Other Sources:

According to the UN and other respected organizations, 12-24 million
is the total estimate of migrations from both India and Pakistan
(East Pakistan included) of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs combined at the
time of partition!!! So if Hindus and Sikhs are taken as 50% of that
figure, since there was an almost equal exchange of population, that
would make about 6-12 million Hindus-Sikhs in both East and West
Pakistan that migrated to India. Now, we know that there was almost
an equal (50% each) number of migrants leaving East and West Pakistan
(although Hindu population in East Pakistan was higher), that would
make the Hindu-Sikh population in West Pakistan about 3-6 million.
Now we know that West Pakistan's population at that time was about 25-
30 million which makes the total Hindu-Sikh population about 12-20%
(+ add the current 1.5%) in West Pakistan before partition. Also, it
is estimated that out of the non-Muslim population in West Pakistan,
+40% were Sikhs, so that leaves Hindus with even lesser numbers. We
know that Sikhs do not consider themselves as Hindus and they are
fighting for independence from India.

References:

Check your local library on the UN statistics on the country's
history of population demography, it will also confirm this. Other
sources such as the World Almanac clearly states: "More than 12
MILLION Hindu & Moslem refugees crossed the India-Pakistan borders in
a mass transferral of some of the 2 peoples during 1947; about
200,000 were killed in communal fighting". Also the Library of
Congress states: "The most conservative estimates of the casualties
were 250,000 dead and 12 MILLION to 24 MILLION refugees".


On the meaning and origins of Hinduism:

"The term Hinduism ... [ was ] introduced in about 1830 AD by
British writers. " [Encyclopedia Britannica, 20 `Hinduism' 519 ]

"The term Hindu was first imposed on south Asian nations by the
Afghan dynasty of Ghori in the 12th century; this term was never
used in south Asia prior to the Muslim era and is not even found in
early (pre-12th century AD) Brahmanical or Buddhist texts. Such a
term and concept has no historical depth in any social, religious,
ethnic or national sense past the 12th century when Mohammed Ghori
for the first time named his conquered subjects Hindus." [G. Singh,
Sakasthan and India, Toronto, 1999, p. 20]

"Hinduism, as a faith, is vague, amorphous, many-sided, all things
to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say
definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of
the word." [Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India, New Delhi,
1983, p.75]

"Frankly speaking, it is not possible to say definitely who is a
Hindu and what Hinduism is. These questions have been considered
again and again by eminent scholars, and so far no satisfactory
answer has been given." [Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu
Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178]

"Hinduism defies definition... It has no specific creed." [Khushwant
Singh, India: An Introduction, New Delhi, 1990, p. 19]

"The more Hinduism is considered, the more difficult it becomes to
define it in a single phrase... A Hindu may have any religious
belief or none." [Percival Spear, India: A Modern History, Michigan,
1961, p.40]

"The term Hinduism ... [ was ] introduced in about 1830 AD by
British writers. " [Encyclopedia Britannica, 20 `Hinduism' 519 ]

"The term Hindu was first imposed on south Asian nations by the
Afghan dynasty of Ghori in the 12th century; this term was never
used in south Asia prior to the Muslim era and is not even found in
early (pre-12th century AD) Brahmanical or Buddhist texts. Such a
term and concept has no historical depth in any social, religious,
ethnic or national sense past the 12th century when Mohammed Ghori
for the first time named his conquered subjects Hindus." [G. Singh,
Sakasthan and India, Toronto, 1999, p. 20]

This guy is saying Pakistanis were Zoroastrians but not Hindus. Before Ghori came there was a dynasty named Hindu shahi in Norther Pakistan and Kabul.

 

[turbo charged]

imagine a brain dead mushrik who sees piety and righteous in following

 

[Nassr]

Hindu Shahi Kingdom consisted of people who were Shaivite monotheists.

 

[INDIC]

Shiva is one of the Gods of Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh(Shiva). Shaivism has been popular all across India, one of the 4 main sects of Hinduism.

Major schools of Shaivism
1 Puranic and non-Puranic
2 Pashupata Shaivism
3 Shaiva Siddhanta
4 Kashmir Shaivism
5 Siddha Siddhanta
6 Lingayatism
7 Shiva Advaita

Shaivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[INDIC]

When one can't decipher the Indus script, how people knew religion of Indus Valley Monotheist.

Indus Valley Seal shows worshiping the deity at right corner.

 

[bronxbull]

Mr. Chairman,

It becomes exciting when a shrimp starts making proclamations about history. However, just to satisfy your misplaced ego, I will quote some of the references for your satisfaction, though those of us who have some knowledge about history would not need many references to accept the narrated facts.

For various dates mentioned about Indus Valley Civilization Wikipedia is good enough.

For IVC being monotheist, please read Penguin History of India by Romila Thapar and papers written by Khan A. Sufyan amongst others.

About definition of Hindu religion and its emanation, please read

G. Singh,Sakasthan and India, Toronto, 1999, p. 20
Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India, New Delhi,1983, p.75
Swami Dharma Theertha, History of HinduImperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178
KhushwantSingh, India: An Introduction, New Delhi, 1990, p. 19
Percival Spear, India: A Modern History, Michigan,1961, p.40
Encyclopedia Britannica, 20 `Hinduism' 519

For the Buddhist gandhara Srolls, please read the article at
University of Washington Press - Books - Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara

For references of Alexander and Porus and its relationship to Rig Veda described tribes, please read

Decline and Fall of Buddhism: A Tragedy in Ancient India, K. Jamanadas, Blumoon Books, 2004
Political and Social Movement in Ancient Punjab, By Buddha Prakash, pp 77
A History of its Culture and Civilisation, By Kosambi, Damodar Dharmanand, pp 81-83
A History of India, By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermung, pp 57
The founders of Indus valley civilization and their later history, By Naval Viyogi, pp 155

For details about Mauryan Empire, please read

The Mauryas: Chandragupta
The First Great Political Realist: Kautilya and His Arthashastra, by Boesche, Roger, 2003.
P. 266 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 1 By James Hastings
P. 92 Paurānic and Tāntric Religion: Early Phase By Jitendra Nath Banerjea
P. 212 Age of the Nandas and Mauryas By K. A. Nilakanta Sastri

About Kushan Empire, please read

Monotheism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy.
"Afghanistan: Central Asian and Sassanian Rule, ca. 150 B.C.-700 A.D.". United States: Library of Congress Country Studies. 1997
Xinru Liu, The Silk Road in World History (New York: Oxford University Press, 2010)

For references about Kabul Shahi Kingdoms, please read

Sehrai, Fidaullah (1979). Hund: The Forgotten City of Gandhara, p. 2. Peshawar Museum Publications New Series, Peshawar.
The Pathans, 1958, p 108, 109, Olaf Caroe.
Geography of Ancient and Medieval India, 1971, p 100-102, 108, Dr D. C. Sircar

For Mohammad Bin Qasim’s invasion of Sindh, please read the Chach Nama.

For references on Islamic invasion of Afghanistan, please read

Islamic Conquest, Library of Congress Country Studies on Afghanistan
Ancient Indian History and Civilization, by Sailendra Nath Sen
The Afghans, Edition: illustrated Published by Wiley-Blackwell, 2002
A Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-West Frontier Province Vol. 3 By H.A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson Sir Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 1997


Mr. Chairman, whoever told you that Ganges was the birth place of Hinduism and Buddhism. Ever heard the name Aryavarta. Have you ever had the occasion of reading history as it should be read, without “Pride and Prejudice.”

Sir, you may be a very proud Muslim, but I am a proud Pakistani as well.

Thank you indeed for your voluminous comments, the weight of which is indeed killing me.



Please do not get angry. I have highlighted historical facts. Your opinion should be based on understanding the history in true perspective and not anger.

Sir,

Am a Smartha Brahmin and if you want to see who our gods are,there are many gods worshipped in India who are historical/mythological characters.

The trinity of Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma is also properly defined.

We are Shiva worshippers and there are other forms of Shiva also.

Likewise there are many many people who worship many many things.

We all form an eco system,now i haven't read all that you have written.

In India Buddhists worship the Buddha and revere him,Jains worship the Mahavir and many other things.

Now,we dont impose our version of monotheism over others and neither do they.

We dont have a written book but we have our traditional wisdom as we do not believe in deifying human written books(which we believe the quran and the bible to be and not the old testament).

Regarding the chachnama,i see that it is written in the 13th century and i personally find it to be a very biased,one sided narrative to make Raja Dahir a villain.

Especially make him a brahmin,he could have been but nonetheless i dont trust any of these sources as they make their claims based on another source.

Ever since there was Muslim rule in India,they were always aware of Ghori/Ghaznavi/Qasim etc etc and after hearing of the Ghazwa e Hind from the prophet himself,i realise that India is Islam's goal,

Long unfulfilled goal.

So these historical accounts are mere silly justifications.

 

[Nassr]

The most interesting thing about Indian Hindus is that they include anything and everything happening in earlier times as part of Hinduism. The world accepts Sikhism as a separate religion and even the Sikhs cry out that they are a separate religion, yet the Indian Hindus claim that they are a sub-sect of Hinduism. Buddhists are not spared as well including the Jains and these religions are also stated as part of Hinduism.

Nehru in his book The Discovery of India explains that, Hinduism, as a faith, is vague, amorphous, many-sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word.

G. Singh in his book Sakasthan and India states that, the term Hindu was first imposed on south Asian nations by the Afghan dynasty of Ghori in the 12th century; this term was never used in south Asia prior to the Muslim era and is not even found in early (pre-12th century AD) Brahmanical or Buddhist texts. Such a term and concept has no historical depth in any social, religious, ethnic or national sense past the 12th century when Mohammed Ghori for the first time named his conquered subjects Hindus.

Swami Dharma Theertha in his book, History of Hindu Imperialism says that, frankly speaking, it is not possible to say definitely who is a Hindu and what Hinduism is. These questions have been considered again and again by eminent scholars, and so far no satisfactory answer has been given.

And to top it all, Khushwant Singh in his book India: An Introduction says that, Hinduism defies definition... It has no specific creed.

May I please request the Indian posters and the Pakistani conscientious objectors to look at history objectively and understand the realities and facts. Please investigate and understand your own history instead of laying claims on aspects which are not related to Republic of India.

 

[bronxbull]

Hindu Shahi Kingdom consisted of people who were Shaivite monotheists.

We have a shivling in our house and the temple in our village is also a proper shiva temple with a massive shivling.

Secondly, All religions except Islam & Judaism have some kind of Idol or Idol worship.

Jews dont impose it on others,whereas Muslims alone talk of monotheism & polytheism.

nobody else classifies people like that,i never get in ego measuring contests as to whose god is bigger as long as the devotion cultivates your soul.

Perhaps you have to probe and find out as to why you constantly try to classify people as mono/polytheists when it is irrelevant to everyone except Muslims ,especially sunnis.

Christians also indulge in conversion but their agenda is political purely,yours is much more personal than political.

imagine a brain dead mushrik who sees piety and righteous in following

whats with the thing about tamilnadu?

Pakistani people gets medical treatment of great quality cheaply in Chennai,they could be from Islamabad too.

 

[Nassr]

Sir,

Am a Smartha Brahmin and if you want to see who our gods are,there are many gods worshipped in India who are historical/mythological characters.

The trinity of Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma is also properly defined.

We are Shiva worshippers and there are other forms of Shiva also.

Likewise there are many many people who worship many many things.

We all form an eco system,now i haven't read all that you have written.

In India Buddhists worship the Buddha and revere him,Jains worship the Mahavir and many other things.

Now,we dont impose our version of monotheism over others and neither do they.

We dont have a written book but we have our traditional wisdom as we do not believe in deifying human written books(which we believe the quran and the bible to be and not the old testament).

Regarding the chachnama,i see that it is written in the 13th century and i personally find it to be a very biased,one sided narrative to make Raja Dahir a villain.

Especially make him a brahmin,he could have been but nonetheless i dont trust any of these sources as they make their claims based on another source.

Ever since there was Muslim rule in India,they were always aware of Ghori/Ghaznavi/Qasim etc etc and after hearing of the Ghazwa e Hind from the prophet himself,i realise that India is Islam's goal,

Long unfulfilled goal.

So these historical accounts are mere silly justifications.

I respect your views.

 

[bronxbull]

The most interesting thing about Indian Hindus is that they include anything and everything happening in earlier times as part of Hinduism. The world accepts Sikhism as a separate religion and even the Sikhs cry out that they are a separate religion, yet the Indian Hindus claim that they are a sub-sect of Hinduism. Buddhists are not spared as well including the Jains and these religions are also stated as part of Hinduism.

Nehru in his book The Discovery of India explains that, Hinduism, as a faith, is vague, amorphous, many-sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word.

G. Singh in his book Sakasthan and India states that, the term Hindu was first imposed on south Asian nations by the Afghan dynasty of Ghori in the 12th century; this term was never used in south Asia prior to the Muslim era and is not even found in early (pre-12th century AD) Brahmanical or Buddhist texts. Such a term and concept has no historical depth in any social, religious, ethnic or national sense past the 12th century when Mohammed Ghori for the first time named his conquered subjects Hindus.

Swami Dharma Theertha in his book, History of Hindu Imperialism says that, frankly speaking, it is not possible to say definitely who is a Hindu and what Hinduism is. These questions have been considered again and again by eminent scholars, and so far no satisfactory answer has been given.

And to top it all, Khushwant Singh in his book India: An Introduction says that, Hinduism defies definition... It has no specific creed.

May I please request the Indian posters and the Pakistani conscientious objectors to look at history objectively and understand the realities and facts. Please investigate and understand your own history instead of laying claims on aspects which are not related to Republic of India.

Thats because Muslims classify pagan religions of India as Hind,they slaughtered everyone who resisted to become a muslim,so naturally the eco system became hindu as a single identity.

Sikhs have a problem because of political nature,not spiritual.

 

[RangerPK]

We have a shivling in our house and the temple in our village is also a proper shiva temple with a massive shivling.

Secondly, All religions except Islam & Judaism have some kind of Idol or Idol worship.

Jews dont impose it on others,whereas Muslims alone talk of monotheism & polytheism.

nobody else classifies people like that,i never get in ego measuring contests as to whose god is bigger as long as the devotion cultivates your soul.

Perhaps you have to probe and find out as to why you constantly try to classify people as mono/polytheists when it is irrelevant to everyone except Muslims ,especially sunnis.

Christians also indulge in conversion but their agenda is political purely,yours is much more personal than political.



whats with the thing about tamilnadu?

Pakistani people gets medical treatment of great quality cheaply in Chennai,they could be from Islamabad too.

Ins spite of Christians having elements of polytheism in themselves, they are still strong a opposition of polytheism. Much of genocide committed by the Europeans/Christians in the new world North/South America was motivated by their "Christian mission" to eradicate Polytheism from the world, and they did, by killing all the polytheist men, women and children, and destroying their culture. Its a white elephant in the room.

Muslims don't do that, because, it is a futile exercise.

The Christians have become misguided themselves, and practices which have not been ordered by God, have entered their distorted "religion"

 

[Indischer]

@bronxbull : Dai Bullu, you are Iyeraa??

 

[bronxbull]

Mention of locations in a story does not mean that the story is correct, it still remains a story.

Mention of Bharatas in Rig Veda was to indicate the importance.

Mention of practice of monotheistic religions in this part of the world was to highlight that these people essentially did not practice what Indian Hindus practice.

People in international conferences and scripts have started mentioning the IVC as Pakistani civilization. Though at times they do add Pakistani and India civilization, but that is likely to diminish as the facts start emerging more clearly.

The west can refer things in anyway they want,we know how to slap sense into Indian kids.

Let the IVC be pakistani but people can see for themselves and decide what is which.

You can fool too much when pakistanis tend to behave like Arabs more than pakistani.