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Siachen: How to Disengage

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Highly influenced by the "give peace a chance" brigade and lot's of out-of-the world suggestions which both the sides will never even lend an ear.

For example :

In the slide "What are India's options if Pakistan later occupies the ridge ?"

Clearly state India’s right to open another front if the demilitarisation agreement is betrayed.

India could withdraw all pol-eco concessions, break diplomatic ties and threaten to walk out of treaties like Indus Waters Treaty; begin work on Kishanganga hydel project.

You think they are going to agree to these stuff ?

Again the slide "Is (Indian) Army's stand on physical demarcation of AGPL justified ?"

Pakistanis will never agree to authenticating the AGPL as it is nothing but accepting Indian hold over the glacier lawfully.
 
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Instead we can stay Siachen and still walk out of Indus water treaty negotitations.

Luckily the morons of the 60s are lying in their graves.
 
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I have read this before. This was a study done by one Indian and **** Brigadier.

End result was Pakistan won't accept to authenticate the line which itself is enough to point towards its sinister ambitions to plan another Kargil.

Bottomline, Pakistan needs to give it in writing or suck up to the fact that India has the glacier, and there is nothing it can do about it.
 
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Think about it.. Most Pakistanis declare the terrorist attacks in the heart of Srinagar as justified since in their view Kashmir being a disputed area, such actions are totally acceptable. Now contrast this with people talking about leaving an area unmanned in a location thats not even authenticated on the maps.. Sounds naive at best.. More so after Kargil...
 
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I have read this before. This was a study done by one Indian and **** Brigadier.

End result was Pakistan won't accept to authenticate the line which itself is enough to point towards its sinister ambitions to plan another Kargil.

Bottomline, Pakistan needs to give it in writing or suck up to the fact that India has the glacier, and there is nothing it can do about it.

There was also this agreement on one smaller glacier, which Pakistan readily agreed to because it controlled the heights on that, and India withdrew its forces although the Company commander holding that glacier had protested. Those heights are since occupied by Pakistan and India has respected that agreement till date.

Unlike India, Pakistan isn't exactly the role model for honesty in Kashmir.
 
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Well, if pakistan does pull out of Siachen, does India have a reason to stay there then?

Considering the money and losses incurred?
 
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I think pullout would be best ,but the problem is you just can't trust pakistan anymore after kargil to keep any word.
 
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I have read this before. This was a study done by one Indian and **** Brigadier.

End result was Pakistan won't accept to authenticate the line which itself is enough to point towards its sinister ambitions to plan another Kargil.

Bottomline, Pakistan needs to give it in writing or suck up to the fact that India has the glacier, and there is nothing it can do about it.

You are absolutely right. It was a joint project between an Indian and a Pakistani brigadier. Incidentally, please don't use the term P A K I; it is a racist term used by British racists, and is resented.

About the reasons for disagreement, there is a little more to it than that. I have explained it elsewhere. That gap in the line should have been fixed by joint survey in 72 itself.

timepass discussion,not happening.

Siachen is a reality.

Well, if pakistan does pull out of Siachen, does India have a reason to stay there then?

Considering the money and losses incurred?

None, really. It's just that the IA is paranoid about posts being re-occupied while they are not paying attention, ever since Kargil. They have made it amply clear to the Ministry that there will be no withdrawal without encashable guarantees, and the Ministry has got it clearly that this is non-negotiable.

I think pullout would be best ,but the problem is you just can't trust pakistan anymore after kargil to keep any word.

Sadly, that is the current reality.
 
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The Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS)

The Line of Control between India and Pakistan was originally drawn on a 1:250,000 map with a thick sketch pen that left a variation of hundred plus metres at any given point besides not always following ridgelines – a source of constant acrimony. Then was the naiveté of not drawing any line beyond NJ 9842 that in 1984 led to the discovery of Pakistan creeping up the Saltoro Ridge, followed by its preemptive third dimension occupation by India. The Siachen issue is not about Siachen Glacier but the Saltoro Massif. Strategic significance of the latter can hardly be gauged by armchair warriors.

Before the euphoria for demilitarization of Siachen grips the country with visions of a peace prize and another ‘landmark’ agreement before the next general elections in 2014 eggs us to draw another foolish line on the map, there is need for serious strategic introspection – ‘paid’ media hollering to ignore military advice notwithstanding. Major fallouts of hurried demilitarization of Siachen are as under:

• Widening the China-Pakistan handshake (collusive threat) to include Gilgit-Baltistan (reportedly being leased out by Pakistan to China for 50 years), Shaksgam Valley (already ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), Saltoro-Siachen region (that Pakistan may reoccupy through “Kashmiri Freedom Fighters” or cede to China), own Sub Sector North (SSN) east of Siachen with Chinese sitting on the northern slopes of the Karakoram Pass if not on top of it already, and Aksai Chin already under Chinese occupation.

• SSN and Eastern Ladakh will become focused objectives of Chinese strategic acupuncture. Defence potential of SSN will be totally degraded with western flank exposed and KK Pass to north, which India stopped patrolling years back for fear of annoying the dragon. We continue to remain thin in Eastern Ladakh against Chinese threat via Aksai Chin – heightened more now with possibility of two front war.

• Our next line of defence will perforce base on Ladakh Range with possibility of Leh coming within enemy artillery range.

• Ladakh and Zanskar Ranges will be targeted for terrorism by ISI nurtured groups while Pakistan will say they are ‘out of control’. ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist outfits with an eye on Ladakh since late 1990s.

The recent media frenzy has exposed the citizenry to the arms lobbies, which may be the tip of the iceberg but what about global games being played by countries whose economies are largely based on weapon exports. Look at the manner in which India and Korea were partitioned – recipe for centuries of strife. Look at the deceit by the British in forcing Skardu into Pakistan’s lap. Look at the aftermath of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria – heightened conflict and who makes the moolah through arms sales, oil, re-construction and power? Why are the Ottawa University, the Atlantic Council and the National Defense University, Washington not discussing a ‘Peace Park’ astride the Durand Line? Will demilitarization of Siachen increase the chances / avenues of conflict between China-Pakistan and India?

Protagonists of total demilitarization from Siachen with suggestions to keep reserves ready for offensive action in case of double cross need to answer the following:

• If the whole exercise is based on trusting Pakistan, what exactly has Pakistan done to earn that trust? Has the anti-India terrorist infrastructure including 40 terrorist training camps in *** been dismantled? Has ‘any’ progress been made in punishing the perpetrators of 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks?

• How will Ladakh be defended post de-militarization?

• What force levels we will need to hold ground - mainly along the Ladakh range? On face value ‘many more times’ the current strength north of Khardung La will be required – remember while one brigade was deployed in Kargil earlier, post 1999, the same area is held by a division with nine battalions deployed on the LC and additional troops required during summer months to check infiltration.

• Where and in what quantum will reserves for Saltoro Ridge locate, how will they be acclimatized, time frame for launch and what is our capability to launch them at those heights on a ridge already occupied?

• What troops will we need to counter infiltration and possible terrorist influx into Ladakh? Even requirement of placing reserves on the Zanskar Ranges will need examination.

• Expenditure on establishing next defence line post-demilitarization; posts, bunkers, gun positions, helipads, administrative echelons, new communications infrastructure with increased quantum of troops, time frame, tenability, maintenance and recurring expenses.

• Effect of demilitarization on population in the area, especially the Nubra and Shyok Valleys considering army provides livelihood to most.

Nawaz Sharif’s call for Pakistan to take the lead and withdraw troops from Siachen glacier is nothing more than a political statement and Kayani’s call to resolve the dispute saying his country follows “the doctrine of peaceful co-existence with its neighbours especially India”, words of a sly fox. Without remorse for her dead during the Kargil conflict, Kayani is capitalizing recent loss of soldiers in an avalanche to rake up demilitarization because:

• Pakistan is at great disadvantage vis-à-vis India at the Saltoro Ridge with Pakistan holding Gyong and Bilafond glaciers on lower ground to the West.

• The situation in Gilgit-Baltistan is becoming explosive due to neglect of Shia dominated areas, enforced demographic changes, subtle but deliberate conversions to Sunni form of Islam and state sponsored Shia massacres. Any outbreak of insurgency will adversely affect communications to Siachen.

• In conjunction Shaksgam Valley, ceding Gilgit-Baltistan region to China for 50 years (reported by USA’s Middle East Media Research Institute) can extend to Siachen-Saltoro through to Aksai Chin, forcing Indian defences south and increasing the vulnerability of Ladakh region.

• Demilitarization will open avenues of infiltration and terrorism into Ladakh. Since late 1990s, Pakistan’s ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist organizations including Tehreek-e-Jaferia (TJP) and its many sub groups with an eye on Ladakh and Zanskar Range south of it.

To say that Pakistan will be in no position to re-occupy Siachen is foolish. Even while Indian troops were deployed at Saltoro, the Kargil intrusions were never visualized on plea that terrain was not negotiable. Additionally, in 1984, when both India and Pakistan rushed for Gyong La, an agreement was reached following a flag meeting for both parties to withdraw. Indians did, but the Pakistanis re-enacted their back-stabbing legacy and occupied the pass in clear violation of the agreement made hours ago.

Compared to Saltoro Ridge, we have many times more troops deployed on Ladakh and Pir Panjal ranges in Kashmir, some of them holding equally, if not more, tenacious posts including some in glaciated terrain. Equally dangerous avalanches occur periodically in such areas resulting in loss of lives. Yet, there have been units who have done a full tenure in Siachen without losing a single man to weather and terrain. Yoga and religiously following pre-induction training saves precious lives.

Lack of strategic forethought and political unilateralism has been typical to India ever since Independence. More significantly, ambiguity and deceit have been the hallmarks of China and Pakistan. Ask yourself have they ever bothered about world opinion? Will their expanding nexus and US pullout from Afghanistan, not make Pakistan more uppity? India would do well not to look at Siachen in isolation. In case of Siachen, first the AGPL and posts held by both sides must be duly delineated on ground and map. We need dispassionate analysis of all issues mentioned above before taking any step towards demilitarization.

Lt Gen PC Katoch is a Special Forces veteran who has commanded the Siachen Brigade

Views expressed are personal
 
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I have no problem with leaving the Siachen glacier if that were part of a plan to normalise relations between India & Pakistan.
The key word in the above sentence is "part"! I see absolutely no evidence of any plan; all I see is Hafiz Saeed celebrated as some sort of a national hero in Pakistan, Indian protests about the Mumbai massacre being given the short shrift with silly arguments about lack of evidence, what exactly is the reason why India must go out of her way to humour Pakistan on Siachen when it is quite clear that the only reason Pakistan wants "demilitarisation" is because it hopes to accomplish something through negotiations that it was unable to do by military means. Whether it is pointless or not is not & cannot be the question, the very fact that the Pakistanis are somewhat desperate to disengage is in itself a leverage that cannot be surrendered without obtaining something worthwhile in return. Siachen cannot be separated from other Indo- Pak issues without good reason. 2012 is not 1989 & there is no urgent need to solve this problem on terms discussed before. I do not believe that the Indian army expects Pakistan to agree to signing on to the AGPL, keeping Pakistan hanging in there suits the Indian army just fine. Almost all calls for withdrawal these days originate from the Pakistani side, only rarely do Indians, primarily using old information make a case for withdrawal on economic/human cost grounds. Pakistan by insisting on the unachievable & therefore insisting on staying in far more risky positions is merely reinforcing failure which suits India & its army very well.
 
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