Should Pakistan try to obtain the Su-25 Aircraft for the CAS and COIN Role?

[Patriot01]

Develop your own with China and turkey

Initial investment but alot better and cheaper option in long run

cannot fully rely on JF17, Pakistan needs different aircrafts as it can anytime face a war with its neighbor. Have to be well prepared.

 

[FuturePAF]

cannot fully rely on JF17, Pakistan needs different aircrafts as it can anytime face a war with its neighbor. Have to be well prepared.

Also the JF-17 is not designed for the low altitude CAS and COIN mission. A $5 million or less; dedicated platform that can protect the pilot and loiter long enough to pick off targets of opportunity is the best plane for the job. The should consider the ARES Design.

 

[Yaseen1]

Why?

Multirole fighterjet is better option and cost effective than having separate jets for this role when we have less budget available.I think we should use k8 and not buy separate jet for this purpose and rather go for jets which can operate for multiple purposes like for navy, air to air combat and ground attack.su25 is old tech and mig31 is much better fixed wing aircraft

 

[khansaheeb]

B-250 is made of 100% composites to reduce weight by 1000kg. Thats why it can carry so much weapons.


It could happen. Israeli cruise missiles are 200 kg each and can go 250km. 7 would all definitely fit. You know if this Palestinian problem was solved we could have so much cooperation between us.

Ah, so you are Israeli :-"It could happen. Israeli cruise missiles are 200 kg each and can go 250km. 7 would all definitely fit. You know if this Palestinian problem was solved we could have so much cooperation between us."

 

[FuturePAF]

Multirole fighterjet is better option and cost effective than having separate jets for this role when we have less budget available.I think we should use k8 and not buy separate jet for this purpose and rather go for jets which can operate for multiple purposes like for navy, air to air combat and ground attack.su25 is old tech and mig31 is much better fixed wing aircraft

Why risk a thin skinned JF-17; vulnerable to enemy 0.50 cal rounds, against enemy ground troops if you have to go in close. Wouldn't it be better to design an aircraft from the ground up for this task. using the same engine as the K-8, the PAF could develop the ARES concept from post #45. Its build for the mission, for the USAF and was tested. The US decided to stick with the A-10, but the ares was going to be a low cost successor for the types of wars Pakistan faces today.

 

[FLIR]

lolzzz you have no knowledge of aviation so please refrain

really!! with 5000 post unbelievable what is he doing here?

 

[war&peace]

Its better to have attack helicopters then that bird, if US is willing to prove A-10s for free then its OK to have them.

Actually both have their place and that's why US army employs both and one has not replaced the other rather they complement each other.

really!! with 5000 post unbelievable what is he doing here?

Well the number of posts has little to do with the quality and knowledge of the poster. He compared two very different airplanes..intended & designed for very different missions.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Armored helicopters would be better than old su 25..
Even armed drones are better option.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Ah, so you are Israeli :-"It could happen. Israeli cruise missiles are 200 kg each and can go 250km. 7 would all definitely fit. You know if this Palestinian problem was solved we could have so much cooperation between us."

No, I am Arab. But the Palestinian problem is obstructing the ability for cooperation between us and the Jews. They have advanced tech for such a small nation that we can take advantage of.

Actually both have their place and that's why US army employs both and one has not replaced the other rather they complement each other.


Well the number of posts has little to do with the quality and knowledge of the poster. He compared two very different airplanes..intended & designed for very different missions.

Why risk a thin skinned JF-17; vulnerable to enemy 0.50 cal rounds, against enemy ground troops if you have to go in close. Wouldn't it be better to design an aircraft from the ground up for this task. using the same engine as the K-8, the PAF could develop the ARES concept from post #45. Its build for the mission, for the USAF and was tested. The US decided to stick with the A-10, but the ares was going to be a low cost successor for the types of wars Pakistan faces today.

Why would you have to go close? The days of unguided weapons is gone, now you can fly at 30000 feet and drop an LGB on a target.
K-8 would work fine for CAS if you could integrate targeting pod, and LGBs on it.

 

[FuturePAF]

No, I am Arab. But the Palestinian problem is obstructing the ability for cooperation between us and the Jews. They have advanced tech for such a small nation that we can take advantage of.



Why would you have to go close? The days of unguided weapons is gone, now you can fly at 30000 feet and drop an LGB on a target.
K-8 would work fine for CAS if you could integrate targeting pod, and LGBs on it.

You go close because rockets are cheaper than LGBs and Rockets are only effective out to a few thousand meters. Also, to decrease civilian casualties or your own troops, if you have to operate in an area where the enemy is really close to them.

The K-8 would be good as a LGB carrier and Targeting pod carrier, but to save costs, we need to be able to use cheaper munitions. In a Cold Start scenario, the JF-17s and F-16s will be busy fighting off enemy fighters and bombers, the CAS force will need to be able to strike the enemy ground force, quicker and with heavier weapons then a helicopter could carry. While a helicopter could do the mission, it may not be maneuverable enough to dodge enemy ground fire, and enemy interceptors or get in as close as a jet aircraft.

@Foxtrot Delta @war&peace

 

[Philip the Arab]

Multirole fighterjet is better option and cost effective than having separate jets for this role when we have less budget available.I think we should use k8 and not buy separate jet for this purpose and rather go for jets which can operate for multiple purposes like for navy, air to air combat and ground attack.su25 is old tech and mig31 is much better fixed wing aircraft

JF-17 is multirole lol. Pakistan doesn't need a heavy fighter like Mig-29/Su-35 for its needs. 2 JF-17s is probably the same as one Su-35 in terms of costs, and when India has a much greater budget you can't spare less fighters.

You go close because rockets are cheaper than LGBs and Rockets are only effective out to a few thousand meters. Also, to decrease civilian casualties or your own troops, if you have to operate in an area where the enemy is really close to them.

The K-8 would be good as a LGB carrier and Targeting pod carrier, but to save costs, we need to be able to use cheaper munitions. In a Cold Start scenario, the JF-17s and F-16s will be busy fighting off enemy fighters and bombers, the CAS force will need to be able to strike the enemy ground force, quicker and with heavier weapons then a helicopter could carry. While a helicopter could do the mission, it may not be maneuverable enough to dodge enemy ground fire, and enemy interceptors or get in as close as a jet aircraft.

Well, how about laser guided rockets like Cirit? Cheap, and would do a great job at minimizing collateral.

 

[FuturePAF]

JF-17 is multirole lol. Pakistan doesn't need a heavy fighter like Mig-29/Su-35 for its needs. 2 JF-17s

Well, how about laser guided rockets like Cirit?

Exactly the Cirit was what I was thinking, but what is its max effective range?
I know wikipedia states the range is out to 8 km, but I spoke to a US Marine AH-1Z pilot and he said they only use these kinds of rockets out to a few thousand meters due to lower accuracy beyond that. He particularly said 3 km was max effective. While that was for unguided rockets, and the range will be further with these guided rockets, in war time you know you can't fire at the max range and expect high probability of hits.

With Good Pakistani-Turkish Relations, Pakistan could get an option to build these rockets under license in Pakistan

Thousands of these rockets would be a potent Anti-Armour weapon, and building cheap but maneuverable platforms will make the CAS force very responsive to Indian or Afghan border violations.

Couples with the Chinese sensor fuzed weapon on cruise missiles, Pakistan maybe able to repulse Cold Start Battle group invasion plans at minimum cost, and minimum pressure on the PAF fighter force.

Also If the PAF invests in a ARES like platform, it can sell copies to allies, and re-coup some of the investment, similar to the JF-17

The Pakistan Army, Similar to the US Army, needs to work with the CAS force (In the US case, A-10) closely in a "Combined Arms" method.

Helicopters may be far away and in limited numbers, hence the PA needs to build up at least 8 squadrons of CAS attack planes to counter the planned 8 Indian Battle Groups of the Cold Start Doctrine, as well as be able to spread Attack Planes to counter threats along the western borders and Coast Line.

We have 60 K-8s so we would need 76 Ground Attack planes to build 8 full strength Squadrons. 76 ARES planes could probably be built cheaply as the k-8 would be the "sensor plane" (Targetting pod, EW Equipment, and possible small AESA for GMTI and SAR Mapping; or for the AESA Role a JF17 or F-16V could come in to help with those roles) and the ARES the striker.

8 squadrons for groudn attack would allow the PAF to focus on Air to Air and deep strike, which was what they have always wanted to do in all wars. Hence the need for a dedicated CAS Force, and the army leadership that wants that constant air cover.

 

[Yaseen1]

JF-17 is multirole lol. Pakistan doesn't need a heavy fighter like Mig-29/Su-35 for its needs. 2 JF-17s is probably the same as one Su-35 in terms of costs, and when India has a much greater budget you can't spare less fighters.

Well, how about laser guided rockets like Cirit? Cheap, and would do a great job at minimizing collateral.

I think suicide drones are also better option if we are able to manufacture them indigenously

 

[HAIDER]

With the draw-down in Afghanistan expected over the next 15 months, the threat of ISIS and other insurgents attacking Pakistani posts along the border and inside of Pakistan may increase. To counter this threat, Pakistan could use its JF-17s for precision bombing and its K-8 for limited CAS, but the threat of enemy fire could damage these planes, which were not designed for this role.

While the first rebuttal to such a proposal will be cost. As stated in this old thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/su-25-attack-aircraft.82315/

The SU-25 not only gave deliver a punch, but take one as well. It was designed as a tank killer, so along with dealing with irregular forces, it can be used to repel a limited conventional attack by our eastern neighbor, especially if used in conjunction with EW JF-17s as top cover.

The Su-25 is a 50 year old design, and has recently been battle tested in Syria over the last few years. New Weapons and tactics will also be available to maximize its utility. Russia maybe willing to share its knowledge for a price or an arms sale of PGMs.

The Ukrainians are a Pakistani ally, and have sold 3-4 Su-25s (from their reserve stockpile of 30) to Macedonia. Should Pakistan approach them to buy, a decent number, such as 24 su-25s with a promise for a SU-25 refurbishment contract?

To make up for numbers beyond these 24 Su-25s, PAF fleet of JF-17s can be used from standoff ranges with PGMs. The Su-25s will really be used to get in close, and make sure effective firepower is used on enemy forces, and civilians are not harmed as much as possible.

The pilots need to be protected adequately, and the plane needs to fly for a long endurance to pick off targets of opportunity. It's ability to fly from unprepared fields will allow it to follow the troops any where they travel, shortening reaction times.

Buying from Ukraine opens up the option to customize the planes to use our munitions or any other munition open to us. for example, Arming them with modern precision rockets such as the Turkish one will minimize the cost over using expensive missiles like the hellfire, and allow more rockets to be carried, so more targets an be engaged in a single sortie.

Pakistan should get this beast, it is flying tank. Slow moving close support for ground forces.
Imagine how much beat it can take during operations.. Extremely low cost to maintained.

https://battle-machines.org/2015/07/26/a-10-thunderbolt-ii-vs-su-25-frogfoot/

 

[SorryNotSorry]

Pakistan should get this beast, it is flying tank. Slow moving close support for ground forces.
Imagine how much beat it can take during operations.. Extremely low cost to maintained.

https://battle-machines.org/2015/07/26/a-10-thunderbolt-ii-vs-su-25-frogfoot/

View attachment 572684

It’s a flying tank