Should Pakistan try to obtain the Su-25 Aircraft for the CAS and COIN Role?

[MastanKhan]

Why? What is so inherently bad about the A-5 or its design that it can be re-designed and upgraded to fit the CAS/COIN Roles?

Hi,

It is a third rate aircraft---.

The Air Chief who acquired it---should have been court martialled for buying it---.

 

[Armchair]

What about war in the Kashmir region? If push comes to shove, we need to plan for that contingency, not just the Plains of Punjab or the Sands of Sindh.



Too Expensive, we are better off bringing back the A-5's, rebuilding them, and upgrading their sensors

Heavily fortified and mountainous, makes progress in this region in a war difficult. CAS aircraft can use the terrain to avoid radar detection, on the other hand, the downside is that SAMs covering key passes and locations can be more effective against aircraft. It is possible PAF will be able to achieve air superiority over Kashmir again, and then an opportunity presents itself.

The opportunity is that India has 8 lack solders in Kashmir, highly concentrated in large cantonments. Bombers would have monstrous effect on them if they lost air superiority and SEAD/DEAD took care of their SAMs. Basically, we could kill a 100,000 or more Indian soldiers in quick time if they lost air superiority and we are able to bomb them at will.

 

[Bengal71]

I'm not sure how much the L-15 costs, but it is probably at least in the same price range as the original Block I JF-17; and hence to expensive.

The L-15 has the perfect engine though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivchenko-Progress_AI-222

Maybe we should rebuilding the A-5s we have retired, new more modern engines, better armor, and putting a FLIR and a small modest (100-200 T/R modules) AESA for GMTI, SAR, and EW should be the way to go. Something like the IAF Jaguar, but more rugged and Cheaper.

Something build for UAVs or Targeting pods:
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/picosar-1

or something like this pod; but built into the nose

With New Engines and Sensors, and better armor, this little bird could do the Job; sort of how the IAF is keeping its Jaguars and just upgrading the engines and possibly the sensors.
If this planes works out there are more than a 100 PLAAF Air Frames that can also be rebuilt for the PAF or Export, so it might be worth a joint venture with CATIC to consider.

How many CAS aircraft will you require though? Rebuilding and modernizing A-5 may not be feasible from a cost perspective if you only require 20/30 planes.

 

[FuturePAF]

How many CAS aircraft will you require though? Rebuilding and modernizing A-5 may not be feasible from a cost perspective if you only require 20/30 planes.

Approx. 80-100 Planes to have enough to cover the Anti-India contingency and the COIN role In KPK and Baluchistan

Heavily fortified and mountainous, makes progress in this region in a war difficult. CAS aircraft can use the terrain to avoid radar detection, on the other hand, the downside is that SAMs covering key passes and locations can be more effective against aircraft. It is possible PAF will be able to achieve air superiority over Kashmir again, and then an opportunity presents itself.

The opportunity is that India has 8 lack solders in Kashmir, highly concentrated in large cantonments. Bombers would have monstrous effect on them if they lost air superiority and SEAD/DEAD took care of their SAMs. Basically, we could kill a 100,000 or more Indian soldiers in quick time if they lost air superiority and we are able to bomb them at will.

How likely is it that Pakistan would gain enough space to carry out such a campaign. Even without major SAM systems and if a two front war with Pakistan and China ties down their Air Force in aerial combat their troops will still have thousands of MANPADs. A CAS Aircraft in that domain and that scenario will require standoff range saturation capabilities; JH-7A fits that role.

Do you think the JH-7A would be a better way to go. It has twin engines to improve its survival in contested airspace?

Hi,

It is a third rate aircraft---.

The Air Chief who acquired it---should have been court martialled for buying it---.

Which aircraft do you think is better suited for this role? Do you think the JH-7A would be the right option?
Maybe a mix of JH-7A and K-8 for COIN in the western border and CAS in Eastern?

 

[Bengal71]

Approx. 80-100 Planes to have enough to cover the Anti-India contingency and the COIN role In KPK and Baluchistan



How likely is it that Pakistan would gain enough space to carry out such a campaign. Even without major SAM systems and if a two front war with Pakistan and China ties down their Air Force in aerial combat their troops will still have thousands of MANPADs. A CAS Aircraft in that domain and that scenario will require standoff range saturation capabilities; JH-7A fits that role.

Do you think the JH-7A would be a better way to go. It has twin engines to improve its survival in contested airspace?



Which aircraft do you think is better suited for this role? Do you think the JH-7A would be the right option?
Maybe a mix of JH-7A and K-8 for COIN in the western border and CAS in Eastern?

How can the JH-7 be a good aircraft for CAS an COIN? It's a strike bomber. It will be good for maritime strike and ground strike for mass bombing.

 

[FuturePAF]

How can the JH-7 be a good aircraft for CAS an COIN? It's a strike bomber. It will be good for maritime strike and ground strike for mass bombing.

JH-7 used in conjunction with the K-8. K-8 get in close with precision guided rockets and guns, the JH-7 as a PGM bomb truck and delivering the heavier ordinance if the situation gets to that level.

Or The PAF could just re-purpose the Block I and II JF-17s to fill the CAS and COIN roles, if we are going to be using PGMs anyway.

https://quwa.org/2019/07/01/pakistan-positioning-jf-17-for-ground-attack-role-2/

 

[Armchair]

How likely is it that Pakistan would gain enough space to carry out such a campaign. Even without major SAM systems and if a two front war with Pakistan and China ties down their Air Force in aerial combat their troops will still have thousands of MANPADs. A CAS Aircraft in that domain and that scenario will require standoff range saturation capabilities; JH-7A fits that role.

Manpads are overhyped. They are of minimal effectiveness against fast jets. This is why the West can bomb Muslim countries so easily, manpads just don't work effectively. This was also one of the mistaken strategies during Kargil "manpads on every peak" did little to help.

If we can get air superiority against India, their highly concentrated forces will become a blood bath.

 

[MastanKhan]

Approx. 80-100 Planes to have enough to cover the Anti-India contingency and the COIN role In KPK and Baluchistan



How likely is it that Pakistan would gain enough space to carry out such a campaign. Even without major SAM systems and if a two front war with Pakistan and China ties down their Air Force in aerial combat their troops will still have thousands of MANPADs. A CAS Aircraft in that domain and that scenario will require standoff range saturation capabilities; JH-7A fits that role.

Do you think the JH-7A would be a better way to go. It has twin engines to improve its survival in contested airspace?



Which aircraft do you think is better suited for this role? Do you think the JH-7A would be the right option?
Maybe a mix of JH-7A and K-8 for COIN in the western border and CAS in Eastern?

Hi,

Jh7A is excellent for naval strike missions---.

For coin---get some helicopters gunships like the MI35's.

Manpads are overhyped. They are of minimal effectiveness against fast jets. This is why the West can bomb Muslim countries so easily, manpads just don't work effectively. This was also one of the mistaken strategies during Kargil "manpads on every peak" did little to help.

If we can get air superiority against India, their highly concentrated forces will become a blood bath.

Hi,

Manpads are a must---. If the iraqis had them---they could have shot down a lots of cruise missiles with that---.

At Kargil---the indians chose to strike from out of the range of manpads after they got hit---.

No system is perfect---each has its utility on its own and in compliment to another system---.

You have to have other SA systems in place alongwith the manpads---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Manpads are overhyped. They are of minimal effectiveness against fast jets. This is why the West can bomb Muslim countries so easily, manpads just don't work effectively. This was also one of the mistaken strategies during Kargil "manpads on every peak" did little to help.

If we can get air superiority against India, their highly concentrated forces will become a blood bath.

Manpads are a more limited threat against fast jets, but still significant against helicopters that have to hover and make closer in passes over enemy forces. A combined arms approach, where fast jets watch over helicopters would be ideal.

 

[NA71]

 

[Fieldmarshal]

Presently their are two true CAS AC operational around the world.
A10
SU25
Both from the ground up have been made for the role of CAS. Built like tanks to take heavy punishment and at the same time deliver massive amounts of fire power to the enemy.